Gary Trent Jr. - Fair Contract Offer?

[YogurtProducer]

I don't see them as similar at all. Allen is a career 62% TS, Trent has never been even league average efficient one year in his career. Trent is a tough shot maker but he's not efficient or good enough at it where you want him even doing it often.

Trent is more comparable to guys like Malik Beasley and Malik Monk. Look at the contract Beasley had to settle for this season.

I'm not arguing Trent much on this site because I find most people have a huge ax to grind, but Trent is not a bad defender and of course Allen is a better shooter which is why I said he would get money first, but Trent is not inefficient or a bad shooter. People just have bizzarre standards of what average is for a SG who's 25.

And they are similar but people think a few percent is massive without really calculating what it means.

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

Theres also a massive difference between playing next to KD Booker and Beal and whatever GTJ plays with

[brownbobcat]

Did GTJ suddenly regress from 2 years ago? If he was a capable starter in 2022 on a solid team why is that suddenly not the case?

Who said it was sudden - have you been paying attention for the past 2 years? His defence has gotten worse, he's shown no ability to stick with faster guards, no willingness to mix it up with bigger wings, he can't create anything on his own, doesn't drive into the paint - he has basically devolved into a semi-decent athlete who can hit spot up shots. That's equivalent to TRoss - a guy who was a capable starter for a solid team a for 2 seasons but eventually got exposed. Who cares what GTJ did 2 years ago if he hasn't done it since or shown any improvement?

Where did I say he is "so invaluable"?

Between Poeltl / JV / GTJ I would argue JV is the least valuable of the bunch TBH. Not many teams are running for a center who cant defend at all.

But hey - if we want to talk minutes, why dont we bring up that JV averages less than half a games worth of minutes at 23.7?

You can like it or not, but JV is a starter. GTJ came off the bench 30 times this year, that's less than JV has done for 13 seasons combined.

Yeah, JV is nearly 32 now and slowing down - what's Poelt's excuse for limited minutes?

And besides - Jakob plays 5.3mpg in the 4th - not sure what ass you pulled 4 minutes out of.

I pulled it out of my big brain that understands 5.3 mpg is only the average for 4th quarters played and doesn't count the 10 games where Poelt sat out the entire quarter. Same big brain tells me you didn't know that and now you're going to move the goalposts to something else.

[brownbobcat]

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

Allen has shot 40% from 3 his entire career, not just beside KD. He is even more of a spot-up shooter than GTJ, but excels at it. GTJ attempts more things offensively, but is pretty mediocre at those things. Grayson does more of the dirty work and just fills gaps for most teams a lot better than GTJ.

[Basketball_Jones]

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

Allen has shot 40% from 3 his entire career, not just beside KD. He is even more of a spot-up shooter than GTJ, but excels at it. GTJ attempts more things offensively, but is pretty mediocre at those things. Grayson does more of the dirty work and just fills gaps for most teams a lot better than GTJ.

Grayson is a more well rounded player than GTJ. He has games where he grabs ten boards or almost ten assists. It helps playing next to stars and he’s older, but I hope Gary can be reigned in and play smarter as he gets older as well. He still has this mindset of being a star I think.

[ForeverTFC]

I don't see them as similar at all. Allen is a career 62% TS, Trent has never been even league average efficient one year in his career. Trent is a tough shot maker but he's not efficient or good enough at it where you want him even doing it often.

Trent is more comparable to guys like Malik Beasley and Malik Monk. Look at the contract Beasley had to settle for this season.

I'm not arguing Trent much on this site because I find most people have a huge ax to grind, but Trent is not a bad defender and of course Allen is a better shooter which is why I said he would get money first, but Trent is not inefficient or a bad shooter. People just have bizzarre standards of what average is for a SG who's 25.

And they are similar but people think a few percent is massive without really calculating what it means.

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

They’re comparable shooters; GTJ is better wide open, Allen is a bit better with the defender a little closer though he’s also more selective there. A decent amount of Allen’s TS% outperformance relative to GTJ is a function of him taking a much higher percentage of his shots wide open: 55% FGA wide open vs GTJ at 32%. Obviously Allen is a much better defender though and it’s tough to bank on GTJ’s “potential” much longer - he may just be what we’ve seen the last few years.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629018/shots-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628960/shots-dash

[ForeverTFC]

Also how is Poeltl a better comp? He is easily a better player than JV is

Yeah, he's so invaluable that he averages 4 mins in the 4th quarter and basically sat the entire 4th for nearly a quarter of the time. Poeltl does some things better, JV is better at others but they're the same calibre of player.

Poeltl is miles better than Jonas as a defender and passer. Jonas is a better scorer but that doesn’t close the gap for a center. Poeltl is in a different tier (and you’re talking to JV Stan here).

Aside from His inability to hit free throws, the reason he doesn’t play in the 4th that often is some
combination of 1) we lack shooting from our main guys and need more spacing, 2) we lack shooting from our main guys and we need to clear the paint for them and 3) other teams are going small and we’re matching the lineup. It also helps that Barnes can guard 5s, giving us more flexibility.

Poeltl is much better overall than Jonas, but they are of a similar archetype that has been getting pushed out of 4th quarters in this era.

[PushDaRock]

I'm not arguing Trent much on this site because I find most people have a huge ax to grind, but Trent is not a bad defender and of course Allen is a better shooter which is why I said he would get money first, but Trent is not inefficient or a bad shooter. People just have bizzarre standards of what average is for a SG who's 25.

And they are similar but people think a few percent is massive without really calculating what it means.

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

Theres also a massive difference between playing next to KD Booker and Beal and whatever GTJ plays with

Is that supposed to be a bad thing? He has shown he can actually play with superstars and be effective, Trent hasn't.

[PushDaRock]

I'm not arguing Trent much on this site because I find most people have a huge ax to grind, but Trent is not a bad defender and of course Allen is a better shooter which is why I said he would get money first, but Trent is not inefficient or a bad shooter. People just have bizzarre standards of what average is for a SG who's 25.

And they are similar but people think a few percent is massive without really calculating what it means.

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

They’re comparable shooters; GTJ is better wide open, Allen is a bit better with the defender a little closer though he’s also more selective there. A decent amount of Allen’s TS% outperformance relative to GTJ is a function of him taking a much higher percentage of his shots wide open: 55% FGA wide open vs GTJ at 32%. Obviously Allen is a much better defender though and it’s tough to bank on GTJ’s “potential” much longer - he may just be what we’ve seen the last few years.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629018/shots-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628960/shots-dash

Sure, I would agree that Trent takes way more difficult shots but being efficient and sticking to the things you are good at is a skill in itself. If all players only played to their strengths, there would be a lot more than 60% TS players than there are.

[Tor_Raps]

3/45M with a player option is probably the max he should get offered. I am not a fan of one dimensional selfish players and I think Dick will perform his role better next year.

On a good team, it is hard to play Dick and Trent together simply because they don't do enough things other than scoring. Team defense/rebounding would be a disaster.

[brownbobcat]

Poeltl is miles better than Jonas as a defender and passer. Jonas is a better scorer but that doesn’t close the gap for a center. Poeltl is in a different tier (and you’re talking to JV Stan here).

Aside from His inability to hit free throws, the reason he doesn’t play in the 4th that often is some
combination of 1) we lack shooting from our main guys and need more spacing, 2) we lack shooting from our main guys and we need to clear the paint for them and 3) other teams are going small and we’re matching the lineup. It also helps that Barnes can guard 5s, giving us more flexibility.

Poeltl is much better overall than Jonas, but they are of a similar archetype that has been getting pushed out of 4th quarters in this era.

Poeltl is certainly the better defender and I've never said otherwise, but nowhere near good enough on that side of the ball to separate himself completely from peak JV. It's not just free throws, Poeltl is completely useless outside of the paint. He's not able do anything with the ball except give it to someone else. Yes, he's a willing passer but not especially talented in either the short roll or DHO, average finisher as roll man.

It doesn't matter where you rank them, but there's no significant overall difference between him, JV or guys like Nurk or Mitchell Robinson - they are bottom tier starters. It has nothing to do with Barnes or this team's construction, he's always going to be very limited as a starter (just like those other guys) because his negatives are severe and his positives are good but not elite.

[islandboy53]

Poeltl is miles better than Jonas as a defender and passer. Jonas is a better scorer but that doesn’t close the gap for a center. Poeltl is in a different tier (and you’re talking to JV Stan here).

Aside from His inability to hit free throws, the reason he doesn’t play in the 4th that often is some
combination of 1) we lack shooting from our main guys and need more spacing, 2) we lack shooting from our main guys and we need to clear the paint for them and 3) other teams are going small and we’re matching the lineup. It also helps that Barnes can guard 5s, giving us more flexibility.

Poeltl is much better overall than Jonas, but they are of a similar archetype that has been getting pushed out of 4th quarters in this era.

Poeltl is certainly the better defender and I've never said otherwise, but nowhere near good enough on that side of the ball to separate himself completely from peak JV. It's not just free throws, Poeltl is completely useless outside of the paint. He's not able do anything with the ball except give it to someone else. Yes, he's a willing passer but not especially talented in either the short roll or DHO, average finisher as roll man.

It doesn't matter where you rank them, but there's no significant overall difference between him, JV or guys like Nurk or Mitchell Robinson - they are bottom tier starters. It has nothing to do with Barnes or this team's construction, he's a limited player.

Cool, but what exactly does that tell me about a fair deal for Trent? Are you saying that Poeltl is a limited player and, since Trent is also a limited player, they should get similar deals?

[brownbobcat]

Cool, but what exactly does that tell me about a fair deal for Trent? Are you saying that Poeltl is a limited player and, since Trent is also a limited player, they should get similar deals?

The context about the discussion was around the ability to start. At this point, GTJ is showing even more limitations as a guard vs. Poeltl as a C. Apart from being a decent shooter, GTJ doesn't do nearly enough off-ball on either end of the court to get paid starting money. There are far more comparable players who got MLE or less than there are guys who came away with a huge bag.

[Johnny Bball]

....

[Johnny Bball]

3/45M with a player option is probably the max he should get offered. I am not a fan of one dimensional selfish players and I think Dick will perform his role better next year.

On a good team, it is hard to play Dick and Trent together simply because they don't do enough things other than scoring. Team defense/rebounding would be a disaster.

Lol, nobody is offering him just 3 million over a 3 year MLE deal. And just to use cap space instead.

[brownbobcat]

3/45M with a player option is probably the max he should get offered. I am not a fan of one dimensional selfish players and I think Dick will perform his role better next year.

On a good team, it is hard to play Dick and Trent together simply because they don't do enough things other than scoring. Team defense/rebounding would be a disaster.

Lol, nobody is offering him just 3 million over a 3 year MLE deal.

Who is the comparable player who got paid significantly more than that? He could've opted out last year and found someone else to give him $20M+/yr but chose not to - wonder why?

[Johnny Bball]

3/45M with a player option is probably the max he should get offered. I am not a fan of one dimensional selfish players and I think Dick will perform his role better next year.

On a good team, it is hard to play Dick and Trent together simply because they don't do enough things other than scoring. Team defense/rebounding would be a disaster.

Lol, nobody is offering him just 3 million over a 3 year MLE deal.

Who is the comparable player who got paid significantly more than that?

Right over your head.

[YogurtProducer]

Nobody called him a bad shooter but 56% TS is below average efficiency. Is 25 supposed to still be considered really young? He's in year 6 already, he's basically in his prime right now. I mentioned career but there's also a massive difference between Allen's 68% TS this season and Trent's 56% TS, that's not a few percent.

Theres also a massive difference between playing next to KD Booker and Beal and whatever GTJ plays with

Is that supposed to be a bad thing? He has shown he can actually play with superstars and be effective, Trent hasn't.

So since Grayson gets to play with stars and GTJ doesn't we just automatically say Grayson > Trent?

Trent is literally #1 in the NBA in wide open 3pt%. His efficiency would be off the roof hitting open shots from KD Booker and Beal allday.

[brownbobcat]

Theres also a massive difference between playing next to KD Booker and Beal and whatever GTJ plays with

Is that supposed to be a bad thing? He has shown he can actually play with superstars and be effective, Trent hasn't.

So since Grayson gets to play with stars and GTJ doesn't we just automatically say Grayson > Trent?

Trent is literally #1 in the NBA in wide open 3pt%. His efficiency would be off the roof hitting open shots from KD Booker and Beal allday.

An incredibly noisy stat that means nothing. He also shoots only 31% on "open" shots with 4-6 ft of space, but better than Steph Curry with 6+ ft of space.

[Tor_Raps]

Lol, nobody is offering him just 3 million over a 3 year MLE deal.

Who is the comparable player who got paid significantly more than that?

Right over your head.

Not to mention I'm sure the Raptors have fielded offers for him and got no real offers. Teams aren't throwing around money stupidly as much with the new cap structure.

Im not a fan of Trent so thats why i said 15M per season but i cant see him getting more than 17.5M per season.

[brownbobcat]

Who is the comparable player who got paid significantly more than that?

Right over your head.

Not to mention I'm sure the Raptors have fielded offers for him and got no real offers. Teams aren't throwing around money stupidly as much with the new cap structure.

Im not a fan of Trent so thats why i said 15M per season but i cant see him getting more than 17.5M per season.

I'll say it again, Grayson Allen also gets to hold the Suns hostage for more money than any other team might pay him. They won't have the MLE or BAE available. It's either him or a minimum player and he knows it.

What's Masai going to worry about if GTJ leaves, that the team will suck? Ship already sailed on that one.