PG: Wrecked

[ill-Will03]

I get we’re missing our starters and playing mostly g leaguers, but there’s a way to lose in this league. And getting stomped by 44 on your home court is just unacceptable no matter which way you slice it. There is no excuse for not competing, that doesn’t take talent or skill. If some of you are okay with losses like this than idk what to tell you.

[Duffman100]

Given the average age, winning's not likely either.

Based on what?

History, youth is inverse to winning.

Except we're not rolling out 19-22 year olds.

Quickly and Barrett are 25 and 24. Barnes is 22. Poeltl is 28, KO is 32.

Low risk of regression, but we're not running out an incredibly young team.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Based on what?

History, youth is inverse to winning.

Except we're not rolling out 19-22 year olds.

Quickly and Barrett are 25 and 24. Barnes is 22. Poeltl is 28, KO is 32.

Low risk of regression, but we're not running out an incredibly young team.

It's never one thing, right. The age is a huuuuge factor, then you throw in "unknown-unknowns" like Porter, or whatever.

Our best players are young and inexperienced, and we're adding more of that. Uncertainty, that's the key word.

[Duffman100]

History, youth is inverse to winning.

Except we're not rolling out 19-22 year olds.

Quickly and Barrett are 25 and 24. Barnes is 22. Poeltl is 28, KO is 32.

Low risk of regression, but we're not running out an incredibly young team.

It's never one thing, right. The age is a huuuuge factor, then you throw in "unknown-unknowns" like Porter, or whatever.

Our best players are young and inexperienced, and we're adding more of that. Uncertainty, that's the key word.

Right so if 3 more of our guys get caught for gambling...

Sure, and you could also have people improve their game, hit on draft picks and spend some money wisely.

Given that our team looked 'okay' with all it's pieces when healthy, it's not out of the quesiton they could be a play-in / playoff team next year.

[Tacoma]

People need to stop making lame excuses. Our FO is why we’re this terrible, not due to injuries or a grand tanking strategy. We had a flawed roster yet they doubled down on it and allowed OG, Siakam, FVV to wind down their contracts which limited our options. They then tried to enter the season and compete but discovered we were still a bad team with a win percentage in the 300s. They pivoted with the two big trades and we still found ourselves in the 300s (understandable given we traded Pascal for draft picks). With absolutely nothing to play for they decided to call it in given Barnes and Poeltl are done for the year. Remember also they fired the best coach in team history because they thought he was under delivering with this roster. A less qualified coach is showed us this team was never capable of much. Now we need to endure being doormats for a few years to cleanse the mess our FO created.

The Poeltl trade was a fail. I don't think anyone can really deny that. Odds are Poeltl is a better player than pick 7+ becomes, but those odds aren't absolute.

Fred leaving for nothing was not good but the return does nothing to change the fortunes of the team in the short term.

The OG trade was the best case outcome. Waiting there delivered a better returned.

Siakam didn't have great trade value. I don't get why people don't see that. The rumoured returns were always quite mediocre despite him being all-NBA/Allstar. Indiana was never offering Mathurin or their 2023 lottery pick. Siakam intentionally tanked his trade value.

Two starters <25 year old starters, two rotation players, and 3 draft picks is a pretty good haul for Siakam and OG thus far. We'll see what else comes of it.

When Barnes/Poeltl injuries and RJ tragedy hit, what else are they supposed to do?

Nurse was fired because he was an @sshole and the future of the franchise didn't have a good relationship with him.

Just about every team that has any level of sustainable success goes through a multi-season period of losing first. The shorter the losing usually means the luckier or better (or both) the FO - take your pick.

None of these are excuses. It's the reality of the situation. No front office is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But the idea the Raptors are a doomed franchise right now is dramatic hysteria. They have no bad contracts, draft capital, a 22 year old all-star, and young guys with room to grow. Things take time.

Just recently, Siakam was billed as a top 30 player with All NBA credentials. That does not translate to a trade return of Brown, Nwora and 3 lowly first rd picks, 2 in a crappy draft, unless your FO messed up like waiting till his contract year to act.

The message of the FO supporting crowd with Fred leaving for nothing and the firing of Nurse were supposed to be addition by subtraction and we will be a better team without them they say. The reality has quite been the opposite. We were a .500 team last year but this year were 12-20 before the OG trade and our record is something like 8-14 with BBQ playing together.

People aren't venting out because we are losing. Rather they are frustrated at how the past 5 years have been FO being directionless being a major reason of where we are today. It's not the state today, it's how we got here that people are venting.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Except we're not rolling out 19-22 year olds.

Quickly and Barrett are 25 and 24. Barnes is 22. Poeltl is 28, KO is 32.

Low risk of regression, but we're not running out an incredibly young team.

It's never one thing, right. The age is a huuuuge factor, then you throw in "unknown-unknowns" like Porter, or whatever.

Our best players are young and inexperienced, and we're adding more of that. Uncertainty, that's the key word.

Right so if 3 more of our guys get caught for gambling...

Sure, and you could also have people improve their game, hit on draft picks and spend some money wisely.

Given that our team looked 'okay' with all it's pieces when healthy, it's not out of the quesiton they could be a play-in / playoff team next year.

They could clear house if they find something they don't like on the Porter front. We're in such a f'd up spot.

[Duffman100]

It's never one thing, right. The age is a huuuuge factor, then you throw in "unknown-unknowns" like Porter, or whatever.

Our best players are young and inexperienced, and we're adding more of that. Uncertainty, that's the key word.

Right so if 3 more of our guys get caught for gambling...

Sure, and you could also have people improve their game, hit on draft picks and spend some money wisely.

Given that our team looked 'okay' with all it's pieces when healthy, it's not out of the quesiton they could be a play-in / playoff team next year.

They could clear house if they find something they don't like on the Porter front. We're in such a f'd up spot.

We're in a **** up spot because they COULD find more to the gambling on our team?

[HiJiNX]

I get we’re missing our starters and playing mostly g leaguers, but there’s a way to lose in this league. And getting stomped by 44 on your home court is just unacceptable no matter which way you slice it. There is no excuse for not competing, that doesn’t take talent or skill. If some of you are okay with losses like this than idk what to tell you.

Honestly, I’m not alarmed. It’s the end of a season in which the team knows they’re bad and that they’re going to lose almost every game. I’ve been on teams like that. I’ve coached teams like that. Once the players stop thinking they can win this is the kind of effort you’re going to get.

The positives for me are:

-the execution of the offensive system and the very consistent quality shots or advantages created
-getting to see how Dick handles more attention and responsibility
-finding guys who might stick like Kobi Simmons
-learning who we should let go (for instance, I don’t think Gueye is an NBA player)
-allowing Trent to play a veteran role on the floor. Kudos to him for still bringing it 100% of the time. There was a play late in the fourth yesterday where he committed a turnover and he went up to KO to say “my bad” and was frustrated with himself despite being down 40. I think Trent is a good culture guy and for that I’d keep him around

So yeah we keep getting killed but that’s just how it is when you’re THIS bad. I don’t think there’s a level of effort these guys can string together that’s going to change the result. Maybe they only lose by 30 if they’re going all out balls to the wall. Or maybe they already are (look at how Ochai got hurt) and they just suck?? Let’s not forget that the Knicks are actually really good.

So yeah, losses like these in a lost/tanking season don’t really bother me. I was actually rather entertained by the game.

[nikster]

I get we’re missing our starters and playing mostly g leaguers, but there’s a way to lose in this league. And getting stomped by 44 on your home court is just unacceptable no matter which way you slice it. There is no excuse for not competing, that doesn’t take talent or skill. If some of you are okay with losses like this than idk what to tell you.

If you want the team to try to keep their pick they need to be bad enough to go on a 12 game losing streak. This is what happens to tanking teams.

Every team that is a below us in the standings have been blown out by 40+ at least once.

[mrdressup]

At this point in the cycle is when you expect to lose as badly as this, so no harm done. We're not an exceptional franchise that is immune to the realities that apply to everyone. It was much more concerning when we were routinely being punked by 20+ points at the half when we had a PS, FVV, OG and SB core. It takes something special to build around (incredible insatiable hunger paired with exceptional ability). Until we get that it's going to be seasons capped at 35 wins for a while. Sucking is the necessary ingredient to shake this front office out of there stupor. They truly believed we had achieved something lasting at some point from which we would always be seen as winners. We are losers today. Say it with pride. We are just like everyone else.

[Duffman100]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Right so if 3 more of our guys get caught for gambling...

Sure, and you could also have people improve their game, hit on draft picks and spend some money wisely.

Given that our team looked 'okay' with all it's pieces when healthy, it's not out of the quesiton they could be a play-in / playoff team next year.

They could clear house if they find something they don't like on the Porter front. We're in such a f'd up spot.

We're in a **** up spot because they COULD find more to the gambling on our team?

We're in a bad spot regardless, we're a 23 W team who doesn't own their pick. But, yes it can get worse. They can clear house and a new guy comes in. Then it's not his vision or guys.

How pervasive is the problem?

[DelAbbot]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

Not true, the Tampa tank in the final 2 months were competitive basketball with L at the end. Every game had only 1 or 2 starter and we had a fighting chance, only for Nick Nurse to make a self-sabotage sub in the final mins

[ArthurVandelay]

People need to stop making lame excuses. Our FO is why we’re this terrible, not due to injuries or a grand tanking strategy. We had a flawed roster yet they doubled down on it and allowed OG, Siakam, FVV to wind down their contracts which limited our options. They then tried to enter the season and compete but discovered we were still a bad team with a win percentage in the 300s. They pivoted with the two big trades and we still found ourselves in the 300s (understandable given we traded Pascal for draft picks). With absolutely nothing to play for they decided to call it in given Barnes and Poeltl are done for the year. Remember also they fired the best coach in team history because they thought he was under delivering with this roster. A less qualified coach is showed us this team was never capable of much. Now we need to endure being doormats for a few years to cleanse the mess our FO created.

The Poeltl trade was a fail. I don't think anyone can really deny that. Odds are Poeltl is a better player than pick 7+ becomes, but those odds aren't absolute.

Fred leaving for nothing was not good but the return does nothing to change the fortunes of the team in the short term.

The OG trade was the best case outcome. Waiting there delivered a better returned.

Siakam didn't have great trade value. I don't get why people don't see that. The rumoured returns were always quite mediocre despite him being all-NBA/Allstar. Indiana was never offering Mathurin or their 2023 lottery pick. Siakam intentionally tanked his trade value.

Two starters <25 year old starters, two rotation players, and 3 draft picks is a pretty good haul for Siakam and OG thus far. We'll see what else comes of it.

When Barnes/Poeltl injuries and RJ tragedy hit, what else are they supposed to do?

Nurse was fired because he was an @sshole and the future of the franchise didn't have a good relationship with him.

Just about every team that has any level of sustainable success goes through a multi-season period of losing first. The shorter the losing usually means the luckier or better (or both) the FO - take your pick.

None of these are excuses. It's the reality of the situation. No front office is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But the idea the Raptors are a doomed franchise right now is dramatic hysteria. They have no bad contracts, draft capital, a 22 year old all-star, and young guys with room to grow. Things take time.

Just recently, Siakam was billed as a top 30 player with All NBA credentials. That does not translate to a trade return of Brown, Nwora and 3 lowly first rd picks, 2 in a crappy draft, unless your FO messed up like waiting till his contract year to act.

The message of the FO supporting crowd with Fred leaving for nothing and the firing of Nurse were supposed to be addition by subtraction and we will be a better team without them they say. The reality has quite been the opposite. We were a .500 team last year but this year were 12-20 before the OG trade and our record is something like 8-14 with BBQ playing together.

People aren't venting out because we are losing. Rather they are frustrated at how the past 5 years have been FO being directionless being a major reason of where we are today. It's not the state today, it's how we got here that people are venting.

Here, go back and look at the rumours surrounding Siakam for the last 2-3 years: https://hoopshype.com/player/pascal-siakam/

I've done this. I can't find the crazy return you're talking about. I see crap offers like Hield and Bagley for Siakam. I see Hunter/AJ/draft capital. This major return was never there.

Then you have to factor in his extension, his play in the bubble, his shoulder injury.

Most, not all, most people are venting here because of the state of the current team. It is irrational screaming into the wind. 23-49, aaaaaarrrrrgh! There is no context at all. If there was, they might not be happy with the current state or their perceived future projection, but this isn't Detroit or anything close to it.

[Duffman100]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

Not true, the Tampa tank in the final 2 months were competitive basketball with L at the end. Every game had only 1 or 2 starter and we had a fighting chance, only for Nick Nurse to make a self-sabotage sub in the final mins

a) we were running Lowry, OG, Siakam, Fred etc in a lot of those games
b) If we had won those games, y'all would have been crying that we weren't 'tanking properly'.

This is tanking. Rolling out G-league level guys and getting crushed.

[TimeForChange]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

when memphis had everyone injured, and were running a line up of 10-day signups, were they putting up a better defense than what you have seen the last few games with the raptors?

[Duffman100]

They could clear house if they find something they don't like on the Porter front. We're in such a f'd up spot.

We're in a **** up spot because they COULD find more to the gambling on our team?

We're in a bad spot regardless, we're a 23 W team who doesn't own their pick. But, yes it can get worse. They can clear house and a new guy comes in. Then it's not his vision or guys.

How pervasive is the problem?

We're in an okay spot. We're a 23 win team because we've lost 12 in a row and intentionally rolling out a g-league team.

We owe one pick and have the rest of our own 1st rounders
We have two Indiana 1sts and a detroit high 2nd.
We have Scottie Barnes and Gradey Dick
We have solid role players in KO, Quickley, Barrett and Poeltl with an intriuging piece in Ochai.

We're not in a 'bad spot'.

[Duffman100]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

when memphis had everyone injured, and were running a line up of 10-day signups, were they putting up a better defense than what you have seen the last few games with the raptors?

They're also getting crushed in games.

137-116 GS
124-93 Thunder
128-103 Denver
122-92 Blazers
111-86 Nets.

Tanking teams get destroyed sometimes. It happens.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I get we’re missing our starters and playing mostly g leaguers, but there’s a way to lose in this league. And getting stomped by 44 on your home court is just unacceptable no matter which way you slice it. There is no excuse for not competing, that doesn’t take talent or skill. If some of you are okay with losses like this than idk what to tell you.

This. Is. What. Tanking. Looks. Like.

Thank God we got the assets we did over the past couple years, so this is just temporary.

[Duffman100]

Breaking news, tanking team gets destroyed.

The belief that tanking team will always be competitive in every game but still lose is ridiculous.

Not true, the Tampa tank in the final 2 months were competitive basketball with L at the end. Every game had only 1 or 2 starter and we had a fighting chance, only for Nick Nurse to make a self-sabotage sub in the final mins

Tampa Raptors lost

130-77 against GS.
135-115 against the Cavs
115-96 against the Clippers
135-111 against the Nuggets

That's just a small first pass of grabbing some games.