PG: Wrecked

[lobosloboslobos]

Watch on YouTube

this is an amazing video. dick makes 10 baskets and only 1 of them is an open shot. all the other are contested and he creates most of them himself. couple of very tough finishes at the rim too.

kid is going to be a fantastic player in a few years

[deck]

Semantics. If the pick does not convey this summer the team will either be l: gunning for play in, or ll: tanking to keep the 6th pick in a good draft.

They will be firmly stuck in the middle waiting it out again. This team isn't bad and isn't good after a summer to add/delete.

And if everyone's healthy and playing since the Pascal trade, that's where they'd be right now, right? Scottie, Jak, RJ, IQ, Gary, Gradey, Kelly, Bruce Brown. That group plus whoever would not be on this losing streak. They'd be play-in quality but likely would have fallen short because of poor start.

So how could that group tank next year? Masai presumably will make small improvements, I don't see a big swing in the cards. Much too good for a lottery team. To tank, the FO would have to intentionally make the team worse. And how would that sit with Scottie, IQ, RJ, who've been on better teams, played in playoffs? Another year of wink wink losing would be very frustrating for them I'd imagine. And how would Masai sell the vision of another losing year to fans next media day?

Yep.

These are the real life implications of making a team purposefully bad that don't have good answers.

Imagine going to Barnes and saying, we don't think you, IQ, and RJ are good enough, so we want to gamble with your legacy hoping to get lucky via the draft. We should know in 3-4 years how that works out.

We are 2 years too late to build a team around Barnes via tanking.

[Pointgod]

Semantics. If the pick does not convey this summer the team will either be l: gunning for play in, or ll: tanking to keep the 6th pick in a good draft.

They will be firmly stuck in the middle waiting it out again. This team isn't bad and isn't good after a summer to add/delete.

And if everyone's healthy and playing since the Pascal trade, that's where they'd be right now, right? Scottie, Jak, RJ, IQ, Gary, Gradey, Kelly, Bruce Brown. That group plus whoever would not be on this losing streak. They'd be play-in quality but likely would have fallen short because of poor start.

So how could that group tank next year? Masai presumably will make small improvements, I don't see a big swing in the cards. Much too good for a lottery team. To tank, the FO would have to intentionally make the team worse. And how would that sit with Scottie, IQ, RJ, who've been on better teams, played in playoffs? Another year of wink wink losing would be very frustrating for them I'd imagine. And how would Masai sell the vision of another losing year to fans next media day?

Intentionally tanking would be to let Gary go, let Brown go (I don’t think Brown makes a difference on this team) and trade Poeltl for whatever you can get. If we still owe a pick I assume the front office will try to be more competitive but I don’t think that should take preference to the overall vision.

And you can sell Scottie, IQ, RJ, the media and fans by pointing to a team like OKC, Boston, who are winning with youth and saying that’s the direction we want the team to go in. But then you also need to make the moves to put the team in that position as well not just half measures.

[Johnny Bball]

They will be firmly stuck in the middle waiting it out again. This team isn't bad and isn't good after a summer to add/delete.

And if everyone's healthy and playing since the Pascal trade, that's where they'd be right now, right? Scottie, Jak, RJ, IQ, Gary, Gradey, Kelly, Bruce Brown. That group plus whoever would not be on this losing streak. They'd be play-in quality but likely would have fallen short because of poor start.

So how could that group tank next year? Masai presumably will make small improvements, I don't see a big swing in the cards. Much too good for a lottery team. To tank, the FO would have to intentionally make the team worse. And how would that sit with Scottie, IQ, RJ, who've been on better teams, played in playoffs? Another year of wink wink losing would be very frustrating for them I'd imagine. And how would Masai sell the vision of another losing year to fans next media day?

Intentionally tanking would be to let Gary go, let Brown go (I don’t think Brown makes a difference on this team) and trade Poeltl for whatever you can get. If we still owe a pick I assume the front office will try to be more competitive but I don’t think that should take preference to the overall vision.

And you can sell Scottie, IQ, RJ, the media and fans by pointing to a team like OKC, Boston, who are winning with youth and saying that’s the direction we want the team to go in. But then you also need to make the moves to put the team in that position as well not just half measures.

That's a pipe dream.

Barnes, IQ, RJ, Dick, 3 (?) draft picks and any youth they keep have plus whoever they sign with up to 30 mil of cap space all of a sudden, that's not a team is going to be competing for the dead bottom. It's half-assed and will just put them in too much of the middle until the break again. Which is very likely where they end up anyway, just with a better chance of winning.

You would have to trade 2 of those three players for picks and take on dead salary. Which turns your hand face up to Barnes anyway.

[DreamTeam09]

We can gun for the playin but we’ll need to make some roster changes if want to be a threat.

When ppl say "Masai will be gunning for the play-in" next year, what exactly do y'all mean...

I'm guessing the next sentence will be "some kind of win now trade or signing"

And my retort to that would be "what's a win now trade or signing look like going fwd"

I don't wanna hear about past trades like the Jakob deal which came under completely different pretences than what we are under now

Would trading for another core piece with in our current age group? Would that be a win now trade? And not asset accumulation as everyone likes to throw around. Would signing 25-26 yr old monk be a win now move ? Or would that just simply mean we signed a SG capable of getting downhill/hit 3s and avg 20 a night on good %s

The preconceived notions/catch phrases just doesn't lead to good discourse that's all.

I think he does more trades or brings in more guys like Kelly Olynyk. He probably believes he has his core and they just need some vets but he’s not going to make a big splash. More moves around the edges targeting complimentary/bench players. Thad Young, Garrett Temple, Olynyk are all guys who were brought in not based on talent but as a vet presence.

That would not be considered win now moves tho, not in the least. And again, I doubt we bring in anymore vets. We have a vet big in Kelly, we might get a vet for the guards or keep temple but that's about it.
Y'all are really jaded at the moment, a little understandable

[Pointgod]

And if everyone's healthy and playing since the Pascal trade, that's where they'd be right now, right? Scottie, Jak, RJ, IQ, Gary, Gradey, Kelly, Bruce Brown. That group plus whoever would not be on this losing streak. They'd be play-in quality but likely would have fallen short because of poor start.

So how could that group tank next year? Masai presumably will make small improvements, I don't see a big swing in the cards. Much too good for a lottery team. To tank, the FO would have to intentionally make the team worse. And how would that sit with Scottie, IQ, RJ, who've been on better teams, played in playoffs? Another year of wink wink losing would be very frustrating for them I'd imagine. And how would Masai sell the vision of another losing year to fans next media day?

Intentionally tanking would be to let Gary go, let Brown go (I don’t think Brown makes a difference on this team) and trade Poeltl for whatever you can get. If we still owe a pick I assume the front office will try to be more competitive but I don’t think that should take preference to the overall vision.

And you can sell Scottie, IQ, RJ, the media and fans by pointing to a team like OKC, Boston, who are winning with youth and saying that’s the direction we want the team to go in. But then you also need to make the moves to put the team in that position as well not just half measures.

That's a pipe dream.

Barnes, IQ, RJ, Dick, 3 (?) draft picks and any youth they keep have plus whoever they sign with up to 30 mil of cap space all of a sudden, that's not a team is going to be competing for the dead bottom. It's half-assed and will just put them in too much of the middle until the break again. Which is very likely where they end up anyway, just with a better chance of winning.

You would have to trade 2 of those three players for picks and take on dead salary. Which turns your hand face up to Barnes anyway.

We came into the season Siakam, OG, Barnes, Poeltl, Trent and Dennis as our main guys and we were 7 games under .500 before the we traded OG. We were 15 games under .500 before Barnes went out with his injury. You’re vastly overestimating how good a team that’s running Barnes, Barrett, 2nd year Grady and IQ is going to be. Especially if our bench is Olynyk, Agbaji, Boucher, Jalen McDaniels, and 3 rookies. That team is closer bottom 10 than top 16.

Having more picks means more flexibility, more opportunities to hit on young talent and it’s easier to make trades without hamstringing your own future. This just makes way more sense especially for a team who’s not a major player in free agency. Staying the course is going to lead to more seasons barely making the play in without the upside of having a boatload of incoming picks to show for it.

[DG88]

Well we're officially eliminated from the playoffs

[ArthurVandelay]

Well we're officially eliminated from the playoffs

Just means they punched their ticket to the top 4

….maybe

[bballsparkin]

Semantics. If the pick does not convey this summer the team will either be l: gunning for play in, or ll: tanking to keep the 6th pick in a good draft.

Let's start by looking at the roster. Barnes, Barrett, IQ, Dick, Poeltl, Olynyk, Agbaji plus Trent if he returns, 2 rookies, whatever Brown brings back and an FA or 2 is too good to be a tanking team. How well they perform will depend on their summer growth, the quality and development of the rookies, the quality of any FA's, etc. Time will tell if they're good enough to get into play in range. And, of course, we fully expect players and coaches to be as competitive as they can, and maximize their results. If that's what you mean by "gunning for the play-in", then sure, I agree. However, I take that phrase to imply, as others have suggested, that the Raptors will somehow make moves at this early stage in the rebuild to add significant pieces to accelerate the process. That seems unlikely. We don't have the asset base, and we're just not ready. Progress will be more incremental next year and probably the year after.

That's exactly what I mean for "gunning for play-in". Especially if the pick is still outstanding to the Spurs. They will need to keep the option open to pivot to a tank should a key player like Barnes or Jakob get injured for long stretches. I think the rebuild is real and will be navigated patiently. Expecting the team to tank right of the bat I find unrealistic.

[Johnny Bball]

Intentionally tanking would be to let Gary go, let Brown go (I don’t think Brown makes a difference on this team) and trade Poeltl for whatever you can get. If we still owe a pick I assume the front office will try to be more competitive but I don’t think that should take preference to the overall vision.

And you can sell Scottie, IQ, RJ, the media and fans by pointing to a team like OKC, Boston, who are winning with youth and saying that’s the direction we want the team to go in. But then you also need to make the moves to put the team in that position as well not just half measures.

That's a pipe dream.

Barnes, IQ, RJ, Dick, 3 (?) draft picks and any youth they keep have plus whoever they sign with up to 30 mil of cap space all of a sudden, that's not a team is going to be competing for the dead bottom. It's half-assed and will just put them in too much of the middle until the break again. Which is very likely where they end up anyway, just with a better chance of winning.

You would have to trade 2 of those three players for picks and take on dead salary. Which turns your hand face up to Barnes anyway.

We came into the season Siakam, OG, Barnes, Poeltl, Trent and Dennis as our main guys and we were 7 games under .500 before the we traded OG. We were 15 games under .500 before Barnes went out with his injury. You’re vastly overestimating how good a team that’s running Barnes, Barrett, 2nd year Grady and IQ is going to be. Especially if our bench is Olynyk, Agbaji, Boucher, Jalen McDaniels, and 3 rookies. That team is closer bottom 10 than top 16.

Having more picks means more flexibility, more opportunities to hit on young talent and it’s easier to make trades without hamstringing your own future. This just makes way more sense especially for a team who’s not a major player in free agency. Staying the course is going to lead to more seasons barely making the play in without the upside of having a boatload of incoming picks to show for it.

Vastly overrating? Lol, no. I'm just saying they aren't the worst and can't compete for the worst. Which is **** vividly clear.

And bottom 10 isn't good enough to really tank if you wanted to take a moment to read what I said. But please, go on and tell me what I'm saying again that I'm clearly not saying.

And we don't have more picks becasue they traded for players instead of picks, which was my first point, but alas, that was ignored too.

[ArthurVandelay]

Despite all the hysterics in Raptorland, it could always be worse. Blazers lose 142-82 to Miami.

Read on Twitter

[Duffman100]

Despite all the hysterics in Raptorland, it could always be worse. Blazers lose 142-82 to Miami.

Read on Twitter

Tanking teams get destroyed. It happens!

[ArthurVandelay]

Despite all the hysterics in Raptorland, it could always be worse. Blazers lose 142-82 to Miami.

Read on Twitter

Tanking teams get destroyed. It happens!

Who knew?

[WaltFrazier]

Grange: Raps are too small, among other issues.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nba/raptors-get-tough-lesson-on-why-size-is-so-valuable-for-winning-teams/ar-BB1kFj3f?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=635dc00840bf4a45b4582a76c3d7d737&ei=21

The Raptors? Well the version that took the floor against the Knicks was a tiny team, by NBA standards, but the trade for Quickley and Barrett made them smaller, just like the trade that sent six-foot-nine Pascal Siakam to the Indiana Pacers did.

Scanning the Raptors roster — even when fully healthy — and the list of players who have ‘good’ size runs out pretty quickly. Centre Jakob Poeltl, out indefinitely after surgery on his finger, probably classifies as average for his position, but that’s something. Scottie Barnes, out indefinitely after surgery on his hand, is a big wing who plays even bigger in every sense.

n contrast, the Knicks seem to be giant everywhere. Robinson was their starting centre at seven-foot and 280 pounds before he got hurt. His minutes were taken up by Isaiah Hartenstein who goes seven-foot-one, 270. When he was injured the Knicks still had Achiuwa — who started 17 consecutive games and at one point played more than 40 minutes in six straight starts. And even then the Knicks could look to six-foot-ten Jericho Sims if necessary.

Even their players who don’t measure as big play well beyond their size. Jalen Brunson leverages his six-foot-two, 200 pounds so cleverly even Kyle Lowry would be proud. Josh Hart is just six-foot-five, but he’s powerfully built, athletic and one of the best rebounders of his size in the NBA.

“I like a big team,” says Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau.

The benefits are apparent. The Knicks lead the NBA in offensive rebounding, as just one example.

They certainly had their way against the undermanned Raptors Wednesday as New York had 15 offensive rebounds to 11 for Toronto, though it was 10-3 in the first half as the Knicks led by 21 after two quarters on their way to a 145-101 blowout win.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's too bad we can't cut Porter free at this point. I'd love to see us go get Kenneth Lofting Jr just to spice up the watch-ability.

[ArthurVandelay]

It's too bad we can't cut Porter free at this point. I'd love to see us go get Kenneth Lofting Jr just to spice up the watch-ability.

You can cut Porter.

But he’s a two way and those contracts can’t be signed until after the season. So it’s not like they are missing out on signing another player.

Porter is away from the team and Raptors only real option is to let the situation play out.

[islandboy53]

It's too bad we can't cut Porter free at this point. I'd love to see us go get Kenneth Lofting Jr just to spice up the watch-ability.

You can cut Porter.

But he’s a two way and those contracts can’t be signed until after the season. So it’s not like they are missing out on signing another player.

Porter is away from the team and Raptors only real option is to let the situation play out.

We currently have the 15th spot filled by Simmons on a 10 day which expires mid next week. Time for one more 10 day tryout. What bigs are still available and worth a look?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's too bad we can't cut Porter free at this point. I'd love to see us go get Kenneth Lofting Jr just to spice up the watch-ability.

You can cut Porter.

But he’s a two way and those contracts can’t be signed until after the season. So it’s not like they are missing out on signing another player.

Porter is away from the team and Raptors only real option is to let the situation play out.

We currently have the 15th spot filled by Simmons on a 10 day which expires mid next week. Time for one more 10 day tryout. What bigs are still available and worth a look?

Use him at C now, if he sticks we can roll him out at SF/PF next year. Just go monstrously big.

Watch on YouTube

[oldncreaky]

Grange: Raps are too small, among other issues.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nba/raptors-get-tough-lesson-on-why-size-is-so-valuable-for-winning-teams/ar-BB1kFj3f?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=635dc00840bf4a45b4582a76c3d7d737&ei=21

The Raptors? Well the version that took the floor against the Knicks was a tiny team, by NBA standards, but the trade for Quickley and Barrett made them smaller, just like the trade that sent six-foot-nine Pascal Siakam to the Indiana Pacers did.

Scanning the Raptors roster — even when fully healthy — and the list of players who have ‘good’ size runs out pretty quickly. Centre Jakob Poeltl, out indefinitely after surgery on his finger, probably classifies as average for his position, but that’s something. Scottie Barnes, out indefinitely after surgery on his hand, is a big wing who plays even bigger in every sense.

n contrast, the Knicks seem to be giant everywhere. Robinson was their starting centre at seven-foot and 280 pounds before he got hurt. His minutes were taken up by Isaiah Hartenstein who goes seven-foot-one, 270. When he was injured the Knicks still had Achiuwa — who started 17 consecutive games and at one point played more than 40 minutes in six straight starts. And even then the Knicks could look to six-foot-ten Jericho Sims if necessary.

Even their players who don’t measure as big play well beyond their size. Jalen Brunson leverages his six-foot-two, 200 pounds so cleverly even Kyle Lowry would be proud. Josh Hart is just six-foot-five, but he’s powerfully built, athletic and one of the best rebounders of his size in the NBA.

“I like a big team,” says Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau.

The benefits are apparent. The Knicks lead the NBA in offensive rebounding, as just one example.

They certainly had their way against the undermanned Raptors Wednesday as New York had 15 offensive rebounds to 11 for Toronto, though it was 10-3 in the first half as the Knicks led by 21 after two quarters on their way to a 145-101 blowout win.

You can always trust Grange to state the blindingly obvious

We the North!

[islandboy53]

You can cut Porter.

But he’s a two way and those contracts can’t be signed until after the season. So it’s not like they are missing out on signing another player.

Porter is away from the team and Raptors only real option is to let the situation play out.

We currently have the 15th spot filled by Simmons on a 10 day which expires mid next week. Time for one more 10 day tryout. What bigs are still available and worth a look?

Use him at C now, if he sticks we can roll him out at SF/PF next year. Just go monstrously big.

Watch on YouTube

You'll have to talk Utah into letting him play for us.