Bobby Webster speaks about the core/future

[PushDaRock]

I've said this a million times on these boards, Siakams return was less of an issue, than when we moved him. Keeping Siakam longer than we needed to resulted in us trading away a top 6 protected FRP, and treadmilling another 2 seasons.

It's opportunity cost, not just a mediocre return.

You can hate the Poeltl trade, right now it objectively isn't looking like a good trade but a lot can still change what the end result will look like based on the pick that ends up conveying and any potential return for Poeltl.

I just can't understand the logic behind trashing this FO for "treadmilling" to 48 and 41 win seasons with a young core while praising the Spurs FO who tried to do the same thing with even worst results with a much older core before pivoting to a rebuild.

Because we didnt have a young core? Scottie was the young part of that core, and arguably OG who was 24/25. But both FVV and Siakam were 27/28.

Last year our top 5 minutes played were Scottie (21), GTJ (24), OG (25), Siakam (28), FVV (28), and we ADDED Jak (27). That is in no way young.

During the 2 "treadmill" years, the Spurs added Tre (21), Vassel (20), and Primo (19) as notable players. Who did we add? Precious (22), Thad (34), Juancho (27), OPJ (29), Koloko (22), Gradey (19).

They added YOUNG players and gave minutes to YOUNG players, cause they were headed into a rebuild. We doubled down and brought in OLD players, because our FO thought this core could work.

They set themselves up to rebuild, we didn't. If you think those are the same situations, there is nothing more to discuss here.

lmao you clearly aren't trying to argue in good faith when you throw in Juancho as a notable player we added.

[VanWest82]

The bold is how you become Detroit.

One huge reason OKC tank was so successful is because they started with an all-star talent already on the roster who blossomed into an MVP candidate.

No. Detroit became detroit by doing exactly what you're proposing we do: tank, not surround your blue chip prospects with talent, keep tanking, and watch as your blue chip prospects don't develop because your organizational philosphy is tanking and not winning.

Wait a second…now IQ and RJ are blue chip prospects? Or are they vets going into their 5th and 6th season? Pick a lane.

The Raptors have a foundation. They only need one season to tank.

RJ is a blue chip talent. He was clearly playing in the wrong system. He was near the top of his draft class for several years before being taken #3. He's just as blue chip as Scottie.

IQ is not blue chip but he's more than just a young vet role player, and that's going to be confirmed when we see his next contract.

[ArthurVandelay]

No. Detroit became detroit by doing exactly what you're proposing we do: tank, not surround your blue chip prospects with talent, keep tanking, and watch as your blue chip prospects don't develop because your organizational philosphy is tanking and not winning.

Wait a second…now IQ and RJ are blue chip prospects? Or are they vets going into their 5th and 6th season? Pick a lane.

The Raptors have a foundation. They only need one season to tank.

RJ is a blue chip talent. He was clearly playing in the wrong system. He was near the top of his draft class for several years before being taken #3. He's just as blue chip as Scottie.

IQ is not blue chip but he's more than just a young vet role player, and that's going to be confirmed when we see his next contract.

RJ going into his 6th season is a vet.

His pedigree is a blue chip prospect. Next season RJ is going to be a 24 year old 20ppg scorer. He’s shed the prospect label.

[Merit]

Took the spurs 2 years after trading Kawhi to know they weren't going anywhere and then gutting their team to get high draft picks. They never trade their picks for quick fixes and shot sighted moves to keep a treadmill going. Now compare that to this FO who took 5 years to see the writing on the wall but during that process they traded first round picks like they were handing out candy. Thats the difference between S tier FO and an average FO.

Like in what world do you give up a first round pick for thad young who was glued to our bench. In what world do you put only a top 6 protection on a pick for JAKOB **** POELTL.

Fred unexpectedly leaving forced the shift to a rebuild.

It shouldn't have been unexpected though. You let him get to UFA so you should have known there was a chance he walks. And depending on what report you believe, Bobby didn't know that Houston COULD offer that insane contract....OR he didn't think anyone would. Either way, he is paid handsomely to have a pulse on this situation.

Of course they would play probabilities. James harden was who was rumoured to Houston initially, but Udoka scrapped that idea and overpaid Fred. If Fred was an RFA I can virtually guarantee he would still be on the team.

[Merit]

If it were me, next season is a tank season too.

100%

Reading the likes of Wolstat, Smith, etc. I'm shocked at how eager they are to get back to .500 and likely stay there.

They are one injury to or trade of Poeltl away from being a very bad to (as opposed to a meh team now).

The Raptors were able to keep getting better from 2013-2019 because they were hitting most of their picks and consolidating players via trade to upgrade. To do that, you need an asset base. Right now the cupboard is bare, so yeah, tanking is the best route.

This isn't a playoff team and they aren't likely to get more than 9 or 10 for the play in. Fwiw, I doubt Masai tanks.

If you believe even at little bit in BBQ organizationally then setting out to tank is a non-starter. Those guys are entering their prime. If you're advocating for a tank, you're really advocating for trading Scottie and RJ because even if you don't trade them but tear down everything around them, you're going to lose their buy-in so you'll just wind up having to trade them eventually anyway.

Any tank from this point forward needs to involve initially trying to win followed by injuries or whatever bad luck that forces Raptor's hand so they have cover from their core players who surely want to win now.

I understand your perspective and it’s the more likely scenario. I’m advocating for a trade for Wiggins. The statement Bobby made aligns with where you’re coming from. I think we’re one injury away from being in the lotto next year unless we make the 5-7 moves that Bobby suggests are needed. Since he’s talking about singles and doubles it’s likely that this offseason we’ll see a fair bit of movement. I would strongly consider finding a way to stay at the top of next year’s draft but I’m not the FO and I’m content with watching a winning product too.

[VanWest82]

Wait a second…now IQ and RJ are blue chip prospects? Or are they vets going into their 5th and 6th season? Pick a lane.

The Raptors have a foundation. They only need one season to tank.

RJ is a blue chip talent. He was clearly playing in the wrong system. He was near the top of his draft class for several years before being taken #3. He's just as blue chip as Scottie.

IQ is not blue chip but he's more than just a young vet role player, and that's going to be confirmed when we see his next contract.

RJ going into his 6th season is a vet.

His pedigree is a blue chip prospect. Next season RJ is going to be a 24 year old 20ppg scorer. He’s shed the prospect label.

He's still a blue chip talent though with lots of room to improve. Keep in mind players improve at different rates and at different timelines. RJ checks all the boxes of a guy who, like Demar, could continue to improve well into his 30s.

Is he ever going to be a #1 for a title contender? Probably not. Neither is Scottie. Most blue chip talents aren't. From that perspective, tanking makes sense, but we don't know these things for sure. We don't know IQ won't make another leap. We don't know that we won't draft a guy outside of the top 10 who might become a true #1 option like Kawhi, Giannis, Joker, Shai, etc.

What we do know is we probably have too much talent to tank sans injuries or intentionally surrounding the core with total scrubs like this year. There are just too many bad rosters in worse shape than ours, and our talent is far enough along that it'd be extremely disruptive for their development to lose from the outset.

Again, I'm not against a happenstance tank, just an intentional day one tank. But I'm repeating myself at this point so I'm going to bow out here.

[Ell Curry]

Call me crazy, but I was always under the impression that a basketball players prime is around 27/28. The 3 of them are going to be 23/24/25 at the start of next season, they are plenty of years outside their primes. We have time.

Ultimately you do what is best for the team, if tanking results in another high end/talented prospect which will build on that team and put them in a much better place a few years from now, you do it. Personally I think that core is destined to be the Hawks of the 2000's seeing the second round and not much else, unless somehow Scottie turns into an MVP calibre player that is.

This team is devoid of talent, and we aren't getting that talent from the 18th pick in the draft.

I think you're basically right, which is why the Poeltl trade protections not being lottery and instead top 8 are so crippling. One more season like this one and then adding this year's #6/7 pick and next year a similar pick, maybe it's say 10th, and you can dream about adding 2 decent young players and being in a nice position to look for a trade (Barrett, Dick, future picks, the 2024 and 2025 draft picks) to get a 2nd star to pair with Scottie and have Quickley shooting 3s as the 3rd scorer.

I think our absolute best case scenario is:

1) winning the lotto
2) drafting Sarr
3) trading Poeltl halfway through the year to cement a tank and letting Sarr learn on the job and having a teenage center cost us games
4) Ending up with the 5th or 6th pick next year and drafting one of the many, many exciting 2 guards for a Quickley-2025-Barrett-Barnes-Sarr starting 5 with Grady as 6th man which looks pretty exciting

More likely, the 2 outcomes are keep the pick or lose it.

If we lose it, I think the front office will look at the slower build and just pray we still get a quality 2-guard to drop to us around pick 7-10 in this coming draft (again, there's like 6-7 that look good going after Flagg and Bailey and someone probably grabs whoever the top big ends up being in the top 10).

If we keep the pick, I'd be very tempted to move Poeltl and tank hard and play the rookie a bunch and subject Barnes to one more horrible tanking year and you can look at trying to bring in some talent in say 2026.

So if we do keep next year's pick, how good does a Quickley-SG-Barrett-Barnes-Poeltl 5 with Grady as 6th man ultimately look? I guess it depends on if Barrett is genuinely pretty good or just empty calories (either here, or as a trade piece, there's always teams that need wings) and how good the 2 guard becomes, and if Scottie is a top 30 player or can become a top 10-15 one who is say a 2nd team all-defence guy at the 4 and giving us a 2nd PG type out there with 3 shooters for him to be Draymond with scoring on O for.

[bballsparkin]

Not really, I simply pointed out that the laundry list of picks makes it look a lot longer and more significant than it really is.

Half of those picks will never convey, or if they do, won't be that great of picks and you easily would take guys like IQ or RJ over them.

We shall see.

Serious question - how many of those picks do you think will actually convey? The original list had 7 first rounders on it.

Toronto (protected top-6 2024-2026) I'm pretty confident this pick will convey. Hopefully not this season. It could be 7-10 this season, 7-15 in 2025 +2026 draft. I'll say 2025 #13 1/1

Charlotte (protected top-14 2024-2025) I have no faith in the Hornets. else 2026 second round pick, 2027 second round pick) 0/1

Chicago (protected top-10 2025, top-8 2026 & 2027) The owner is 88. As long as he's still breathing I believe the pick will convey. I'll guess # 14 in 2026. Makes sense for the Bulls to rebuild and keep the picks from a team building perspective. And I would love for that to happen. Spurs already got Wemby some bad breaks for them with these picks is fine by me. But Reinsdorf loves making his money. I think unlike many owners he makes his money of off his teams. Similar to the Lakers. 1/1

Atlanta (unprotected 2025, swap 2026, unprotected 2027 All three should convey. But perhaps not the swap. High potential picks. 2/3

Boston (swap 2028) Unlikely. 0/1

2030 Dallas pick swap - This was a reckless move by the Mavs imo. 1/1

"The 2030 swap, in particular, acquired from the Mavs to take Bullock's contract as part of a sign-and-trade for Grant Williams, symbolizes the Spurs' apparent patience. It's possible that swap could ultimately amount to nothing, but San Antonio timed it for after Luka Doncic's current contract ends and just as Wembanyama -- who will be 26 in 2030 -- should be reaching his peak."

So that's 5 intriguing FRP's. And 15+ 2nd round picks other than their own. I'd say that's impressive. They can be used in trades as well.

[RoteSchroder]

Call me crazy, but I was always under the impression that a basketball players prime is around 27/28. The 3 of them are going to be 23/24/25 at the start of next season, they are plenty of years outside their primes. We have time.

Ultimately you do what is best for the team, if tanking results in another high end/talented prospect which will build on that team and put them in a much better place a few years from now, you do it. Personally I think that core is destined to be the Hawks of the 2000's seeing the second round and not much else, unless somehow Scottie turns into an MVP calibre player that is.

This team is devoid of talent, and we aren't getting that talent from the 18th pick in the draft.

I think you're basically right, which is why the Poeltl trade protections not being lottery and instead top 8 are so crippling. One more season like this one and then adding this year's #6/7 pick and next year a similar pick, maybe it's say 10th, and you can dream about adding 2 decent young players and being in a nice position to look for a trade (Barrett, Dick, future picks, the 2024 and 2025 draft picks) to get a 2nd star to pair with Scottie and have Quickley shooting 3s as the 3rd scorer.

I think our absolute best case scenario is:

1) winning the lotto
2) drafting Sarr
3) trading Poeltl halfway through the year to cement a tank and letting Sarr learn on the job and having a teenage center cost us games
4) Ending up with the 5th or 6th pick next year and drafting one of the many, many exciting 2 guards for a Quickley-2025-Barrett-Barnes-Sarr starting 5 with Grady as 6th man which looks pretty exciting

More likely, the 2 outcomes are keep the pick or lose it.

If we lose it, I think the front office will look at the slower build and just pray we still get a quality 2-guard to drop to us around pick 7-10 in this coming draft (again, there's like 6-7 that look good going after Flagg and Bailey and someone probably grabs whoever the top big ends up being in the top 10).

If we keep the pick, I'd be very tempted to move Poeltl and tank hard and play the rookie a bunch and subject Barnes to one more horrible tanking year and you can look at trying to bring in some talent in say 2026.

So if we do keep next year's pick, how good does a Quickley-SG-Barrett-Barnes-Poeltl 5 with Grady as 6th man ultimately look? I guess it depends on if Barrett is genuinely pretty good or just empty calories (either here, or as a trade piece, there's always teams that need wings) and how good the 2 guard becomes, and if Scottie is a top 30 player or can become a top 10-15 one who is say a 2nd team all-defence guy at the 4 and giving us a 2nd PG type out there with 3 shooters for him to be Draymond with scoring on O for.

Kind of gotta read the room with trading Poeltl + tanking thing. The players and management clearly want to start winning. Even after the Siakam trade, they were going for a play-in spot. If we're in the same situation at next year's deadline (no play-in, but not a complete bottom feeder either), it's likely they'll still try to win and go for a play-in position. MLSE has never been a fan of tanking either and even with trading Siakam/OG, Masai was still kind of a "buyer" this season.

So if we're operating under that reality, a Poeltl trade and hard tank seems like it's out of the question (barring more injuries). If things go south next season, it's likely that we'll at #6-8 and be praying for lotto balls yet again.

Second point is that Sarr might be better off at PF. He's not a good post defender and will be overwhelmed/overpowered by half the C's in the league. He has struggled against 6'9 scrubs in the post as is. His strengths are more so his switchability and ability to guard the perimeter. If we do draft Sarr, it makes a lot of sense to play him off the bench alongside Olynyk.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I feel like by suggesting the raptors are many move away from competing Bobby is subtly suggesting he's a closeted member of the tWo gang. I wonder what Del/other leaders of the tWo feel about this. Del usually has strong feelings about raptors management and any quotes that comes from them.

[Scase]

You can hate the Poeltl trade, right now it objectively isn't looking like a good trade but a lot can still change what the end result will look like based on the pick that ends up conveying and any potential return for Poeltl.

I just can't understand the logic behind trashing this FO for "treadmilling" to 48 and 41 win seasons with a young core while praising the Spurs FO who tried to do the same thing with even worst results with a much older core before pivoting to a rebuild.

Because we didnt have a young core? Scottie was the young part of that core, and arguably OG who was 24/25. But both FVV and Siakam were 27/28.

Last year our top 5 minutes played were Scottie (21), GTJ (24), OG (25), Siakam (28), FVV (28), and we ADDED Jak (27). That is in no way young.

During the 2 "treadmill" years, the Spurs added Tre (21), Vassel (20), and Primo (19) as notable players. Who did we add? Precious (22), Thad (34), Juancho (27), OPJ (29), Koloko (22), Gradey (19).

They added YOUNG players and gave minutes to YOUNG players, cause they were headed into a rebuild. We doubled down and brought in OLD players, because our FO thought this core could work.

They set themselves up to rebuild, we didn't. If you think those are the same situations, there is nothing more to discuss here.

lmao you clearly aren't trying to argue in good faith when you throw in Juancho as a notable player we added.

Juancho played 42 games and was putting up 14mpg, how is that not notable? He was added to the team in an attempt to shore up our pathetic 3pt shooting, we didn't draft or trade for a 20-22 year old prospect, we picked up a 27 year old journeyman. Thad and Juancho combined, played significantly more minutes than Tre did on the spurs.

We added old players, they added 20 year olds. How you don't see the massive difference between those 2, is baffling.

[Ell Curry]

Kind of gotta read the room with trading Poeltl + tanking thing. The players and management clearly want to start winning. Even after the Siakam trade, they were going for a play-in spot. If we're in the same situation at next year's deadline (no play-in, but not a complete bottom feeder either), it's likely they'll still try to win and go for a play-in position. MLSE has never been a fan of tanking either and even with trading Siakam/OG, Masai was still kind of a "buyer" this season.

So if we're operating under that reality, a Poeltl trade and hard tank seems like it's out of the question (barring more injuries). If things go south next season, it's likely that we'll at #6-8 and be praying for lotto balls yet again.

Second point is that Sarr might be better off at PF. He's not a good post defender and will be overwhelmed/overpowered by half the C's in the league. He has struggled against 6'9 scrubs in the post as is. His strengths are more so his switchability and ability to guard the perimeter. If we do draft Sarr, it makes a lot of sense to play him off the bench alongside Olynyk.

Good post.

I do firmly think that we're in a situation where the paramount question is "How do we find a 2nd star to go with Barnes" and every decision has to be made in relation to that question (apart from say 2nd rounders and FA's for the MLE and under, where it's just about finding any sort of solid rotation guys like a Boucher). So while I agree that Poeltl probably won't be dealt to ensure a tank, I do think it should absolutely be on the table, whether we keep our pick and need to tank into the 4-5 range in the lotto if the opportunity is there, or we lose the pick and it's about getting from #10 or so up to #6 or 7.

I'm no Sarr expert, and he might be a PF for a number of years. I've seen some Mobley comps, and I think he'll eventually end up a starting center in Cleveland with Allen going (or a Mobley trade which seems less likely), but starting his career at PF until he beefs up makes sense.

[Wise80]

Toronto’s record was very bad at the time of the trade. San Antonio didn’t want a pick that may never convey. Toronto was confident that with Poeltl that the team would be better and they would give a mid 1st round in the bad draft.

The scenario didn’t unfold as expected . I never liked the trade and never will. They went the opposite way I would have gone. But there was a rational to go the way they did.

There's almost always a rational way of thinking when trades are made. You don't get paid for making rational moves. You get paid for the results that come from it. At some point, this front office needs to stop swinging and missing.

If Masai and Bobby would of left after the championship. We'd all be questioning the moves the new front office has made since then.

I'm just glad that era is finally over. Not to make excuses for Masai and Bobby, but I do think there views of these guys were skewed for a few reasons (winning a championship, raising these men from a very young age). Whether they thought they were better than they were, or just genuinely liked them and wanted to win with them. They were playing catch up and patch the leaking boat for like 5 years. And it set them back.

They had good reason to like those guys, they're all really good players. Just look at the impact Fred and OG have had on their new teams. Siakam has been good as well for the Pacers. Mistakes were certainly made on that roster though, not surrounding those guys with sufficient shooting and zero depth. The development program which used to be our strength has been a weakness for the last 5 years. Not counting Barnes, we haven't developed anyone into even a legitimate rotational player in the league. Perhaps it was just the insane run of luck hitting on late 1st rounders, 2nd rounders and UDFA's evening out or some hubris, maybe a combination of both which caused that. Free Agency has also been a massive failure under Masai and Bobby. Schroder was arguably their best FA signing ever under them and they dumped him just to get rid of the contract.

I think they're great complimentary players who were put a little to high up on the totem pole. I also think it got to those guys heads. There egos were a little to big for what they've accomplished as "being the guys."

Not to side track. But I said at the start of the season that I hope fred doesn't get credit for the Rockets turn around. I don't even know if you can call it that. They went from being ridiculously young and having Porter as there lead guard. To having another year under there belt and having fred, Brooks, and a new head coach for veteran presence while filling 2 starting positions. The development of there young guys and those 3 bringing a veteran presence got them to 500. Basketball and not close to playing in the play in. They would of been just as good with a competent pg. Fred works with that team because they have dynamic players at other positions. The Rockets are going to be good very soon and it will be because of there young guys. Not because of Fred.

[Wise80]

They had good reason to like those guys, they're all really good players. Just look at the impact Fred and OG have had on their new teams. Siakam has been good as well for the Pacers. Mistakes were certainly made on that roster though, not surrounding those guys with sufficient shooting and zero depth. The development program which used to be our strength has been a weakness for the last 5 years. Not counting Barnes, we haven't developed anyone into even a legitimate rotational player in the league. Perhaps it was just the insane run of luck hitting on late 1st rounders, 2nd rounders and UDFA's evening out or some hubris, maybe a combination of both which caused that. Free Agency has also been a massive failure under Masai and Bobby. Schroder was arguably their best FA signing ever under them and they dumped him just to get rid of the contract.

Well said. We’re all seeing the love OG is getting. Veccenie was singing Fred’s praises and raving about his impact in Houston last week. Siakam kept the Pacers out of the play-in during Hali’s struggles.

Masai and Bobby’s biggest mistake was not just picking a lane. If it was FVV/OG/Siakam, build a roster that suits them. People that don’t even watch basketball knew about the Raptors spacing and half court issues through all of this. I ultimately think Masai was not as high on the core but saw the return for them as even worse. Barnes ROY season probably made the indecision worse.

Also, I think Biyombo was a much better signing than Dennis.

If I were to guess, he wanted to make a Kawhi type deal to add to this core. But, he also did not want to give up Scottie in that type of deal so we just ended up in a weird place.

Yeah Biyombo was probably better from an impact perspective but it's also a very low bar that's been set.

I think he wanted to as well. But it was blatantly obvious that it wasn't there with the roster he had. We were 5 or 6 deep for years. You can't turn 3 of those guys into a superstar and expect to win games when you not only don't have depth, but you can't even field a competent starting lineup.

[PushDaRock]

Because we didnt have a young core? Scottie was the young part of that core, and arguably OG who was 24/25. But both FVV and Siakam were 27/28.

Last year our top 5 minutes played were Scottie (21), GTJ (24), OG (25), Siakam (28), FVV (28), and we ADDED Jak (27). That is in no way young.

During the 2 "treadmill" years, the Spurs added Tre (21), Vassel (20), and Primo (19) as notable players. Who did we add? Precious (22), Thad (34), Juancho (27), OPJ (29), Koloko (22), Gradey (19).

They added YOUNG players and gave minutes to YOUNG players, cause they were headed into a rebuild. We doubled down and brought in OLD players, because our FO thought this core could work.

They set themselves up to rebuild, we didn't. If you think those are the same situations, there is nothing more to discuss here.

lmao you clearly aren't trying to argue in good faith when you throw in Juancho as a notable player we added.

Juancho played 42 games and was putting up 14mpg, how is that not notable? He was added to the team in an attempt to shore up our pathetic 3pt shooting, we didn't draft or trade for a 20-22 year old prospect, we picked up a 27 year old journeyman. Thad and Juancho combined, played significantly more minutes than Tre did on the spurs.

We added old players, they added 20 year olds. How you don't see the massive difference between those 2, is baffling.

lmao Juancho signed a minimum deal and had to battle it out in camp just to make the team. If we are calling that a notable signing, is Malik Williams a notable signing too? He played over 15 mpg for us too.

Why did you list all the young players for the Spurs but ignored the old players they acquired/signed like Thad Young (33), Tyler Zeller (30), Rudy Gay (33), Marco Belinelli (33), Demarre Carroll (33)?

The Carroll signing in particular was a massive blunder. He signed a 3 year deal that they bought him out of after he played just 15 games for them.

It's just extremely odd how you make it seem like we are the only team that adds veterans when it's not the case at all as the Spurs added just as many if not more.

[bballsparkin]

I feel like by suggesting the raptors are many move away from competing Bobby is subtly suggesting he's a closeted member of the tWo gang. I wonder what Del/other leaders of the tWo feel about this. Del usually has strong feelings about raptors management and any quotes that comes from them.

Del is actively working behind the scenes and front and centre along with team convey. I'm not sure if he can be considered tWo at this point. You might need to call forth an emergency summit meeting with ninjabro and Walt to get to the bottom of this.

[PushDaRock]

There's almost always a rational way of thinking when trades are made. You don't get paid for making rational moves. You get paid for the results that come from it. At some point, this front office needs to stop swinging and missing.

If Masai and Bobby would of left after the championship. We'd all be questioning the moves the new front office has made since then.

I'm just glad that era is finally over. Not to make excuses for Masai and Bobby, but I do think there views of these guys were skewed for a few reasons (winning a championship, raising these men from a very young age). Whether they thought they were better than they were, or just genuinely liked them and wanted to win with them. They were playing catch up and patch the leaking boat for like 5 years. And it set them back.

They had good reason to like those guys, they're all really good players. Just look at the impact Fred and OG have had on their new teams. Siakam has been good as well for the Pacers. Mistakes were certainly made on that roster though, not surrounding those guys with sufficient shooting and zero depth. The development program which used to be our strength has been a weakness for the last 5 years. Not counting Barnes, we haven't developed anyone into even a legitimate rotational player in the league. Perhaps it was just the insane run of luck hitting on late 1st rounders, 2nd rounders and UDFA's evening out or some hubris, maybe a combination of both which caused that. Free Agency has also been a massive failure under Masai and Bobby. Schroder was arguably their best FA signing ever under them and they dumped him just to get rid of the contract.

I think they're great complimentary players who were put a little to high up on the totem pole. I also think it got to those guys heads. There egos were a little to big for what they've accomplished as "being the guys."

Not to side track. But I said at the start of the season that I hope fred doesn't get credit for the Rockets turn around. I don't even know if you can call it that. They went from being ridiculously young and having Porter as there lead guard. To having another year under there belt and having fred, Brooks, and a new head coach for veteran presence while filling 2 starting positions. The development of there young guys and those 3 bringing a veteran presence got them to 500. Basketball and not close to playing in the play in. They would of been just as good with a competent pg. Fred works with that team because they have dynamic players at other positions. The Rockets are going to be good very soon and it will be because of there young guys. Not because of Fred.

Fred impacts winning and it's always shown up in every metric. I think his career on/off stats speaks for itself really.

I'm not sure I understand the praise being heaped on their young players. Sengun obviously has taken a leap but Green actually got worse and Smith Jr. got more efficient but his production barely improved at all.

Getting to a 500 record is pretty damn impressive, that's a 19 win improvement over last season and damn near double the amount of wins they had.

[Los_29]

Spurs had a long run winning 5 championships with many players drafted themselves. Having a little dip post Kawhi trade would be perfectly acceptable to the fanbase after all that success and playoff runs. They pivoted towards a tank at the right time when a generational talent was available. Sure it required luck in the end but it was the right risk at the right time. Conversely Raptors traded picks away to desperately try and make the playoffs when they could have easily tanked given they were 6th worst at that time. I believe the relevant quote there was "How do you convince a champion to tank?"

This overall franchise comparison is just poor.

I'm not really understanding the right risk at the right time narrative for the Spurs. They were already an under .500 team for 3 years in a row before heading into last season, what pivot was there made?

They stunk with Dejounte and didn’t want to pay him the max. As good of a prospect Wemby is, no one decided to tank because of him. Even the Pistons added pieces to compete.

[Los_29]

Real interesting you decided on exactly 6 years.

It's almost like it's a bad faith argument, almost like that was the end of 20 years straight of making deep playoff runs, and 5 championships.

The Spurs objectively, by every measurement, have and always have had a much better FO than us. This isn't even up for debate, they arguably have one of the best FOs in pro sports. Your constant defence of this FO is impressive, if not braindead.

As usual, you don't need the personal attack. Warned.

It’s funny how you can credit the spurs for a rebuild but not give our FO the time to execute a rebuild.

I'm crediting the Spurs for knowing when to rebuild. And more importantly attempting a full rebuild.

Our FO was years late to it, and is looking more like a retool at the moment. If the FO decides to further tear it down this off season by say, trading Jak for futures, then I will absolutely give them 2-4 years of runway. I don't have a problem with the FO rebuilding, I have an issue with their seeming unwillingness to do so.

You're making arguments up that don't exist.

Spurs actually were on a treadmill for a long time. We decided to rebuild far quicker than the Spurs did.

They also had no choice but to do a full rebuild.

[pilkoids]

Are we resigning Gary? Also seems like all of you forgot the $23M Brown contract that can be moved for pieces.

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