PG: Tank season has concluded

[F22_Raptor]

Let's erase the tapes!

[HumbleRen]

I think they we're playing it as it came. But when they started seeing how we were trending, we definitely tanked.

You don't think these guys could have come back if we were fighting for a play-in spot? I'm sure both Poeltl and Barnes were totally playable for the last little while.

Poeltl had finger surgery at the end of the first week of March, let’s say the recovery window is 3-4 weeks. His return at the earliest would be the last week of March.


Scottie’s injury is a 4-6 week recovery window. At the earliest he would have came back for the last week of March as well.

There was no chance of them making the play in by the time they would have came back. Especially considering RJ and IQ missing some games due to loved ones passing away.

Definitely circumstantial tanking in my opinion compared to the full out tank during the Tampa season.

and yet, both terms have 'tanking' in them.

The first 2 words in my first post literally has the word “tanked” in it so I’m not sure why you attempted a snarky gotcha post as a response when I’ve acknowledged that there was tanking.

I just disagree with how you’re framing it. We were the 12th seed when Poeltl and Scottie went down to injuries and were still the 12th seed. Rushing them back from surgery recovery wasn’t going to change that.

If they never got injured, they would have played the majority of games down the stretch. I don’t believe for a second that they value going from a 37% chance of keeping our pick to a 45% chance of keeping our pick over actual reps for Scottie handling the load of a first option and building chemistry with IQ, Gradey and RJ.

[Chuck Everett]

I’m all for the rebuild but at the same time I don’t want to sit through another season like this.

So you expect to keep rebuilding but make the play-in?

[WaltFrazier]

In the future, people may not ever remember that this team was actually trying to win games until the trade deadline. This was a bad team that got worse and is still hamstrung by a preposterous trade. It’s a long road ahead.

Which preposterous trade? If there was no tanking potion called the lotto the preposterous trade you might be referring to would already be a moot point. It is so NBA to use a gambling gimmick to further hurt markets that can never sign tier 1 free agents. It started with denying us the number 1 pick coming into the league, then the matter of refs continual harrassment and subsequent league fines or the espn national round table of shame and disinterest and this year two investigations including a civil lawsuit from someone who lawyers up to go the bathroom and now the league leaking investigation into a 10 day contractor we had just signed to a regular deal for gambling allegations. The reality is some just plain devalue Poetl as man of less conventional talents. For all we know the FO was hoping the Poetl acquisition might get Paskal to sign an extension. He, Fred and others knew they were hitting the open market long before it happened. The NBA open market architecture ensures teams outside the preferred status arrangement get put in their place. I do not begrudge the FO trying to use Poetl to get a home discount on Paskal. That the tactic failed is the real issue and the why it must tried in the first place.

Interesting take.

Just to clarify, by "ESPN national round table" are you referring to a particular event, or just the general way they cover/ignore the Raps?

[WaltFrazier]

Scottie won ROY largely because he came to a competitive team with some very good vets, compared to the teams his draft classmates came to. He had that playoff experience, then a play-in. IQ and RJ came from a pretty competitive team that had a decent playoff run a year ago beating the Cavs and going 6 with Miami.

Having tasted that, and if they are the competitors fans would hope they are, then the prospect of a whole season of losing would have to be very discouraging for them. I can't see the front office not trying to win next year for this reason alone, along with what MLSE would want. The team with the right additions this summer and decent health will be too good to be like Detroit, Washington, Portland this year. Not sure how good but play -in level or fighting for that. Any tank that happens will only be a late pivot after the deadline, based on injuries, like this season. Which may mean a treadmill type scenario, but I can't see any full bottoming out tank happening.

[WaltFrazier]

We really went out with a whimper, still on page 1

Will the apathy and discouragement here extend to the rest of the league? I don't see a play-in/playoff thread yet

[Jadoogar]

What a dreadful season. OG was traded on December 30, 2023. At that time, Raptors were 12-19, on a 32 win pace. So it's not like we were headed for the playoffs if not for the trades. Just shows how necessary the trades were.

[Scase]

We didn't tank? We sat our entire starting lineup (mostly) for like the last 25-30 games of the season.

We tanked because of the circumstances but I don't think they had intentions to tank once the trades happened, I don't believe they value the 2024 pick to that extent.

Scottie with a broken finger, Poeltl with a serious ankle sprain, RJ had a knee sprain to manage on top of his brother passing away. IQ dealing with a family member passing too.

I think there was more legit reasons why they sat out rather than not.

I think they we're playing it as it came. But when they started seeing how we were trending, we definitely tanked.

You don't think these guys could have come back if we were fighting for a play-in spot? I'm sure both Poeltl and Barnes were totally playable for the last little while.

I think as usual this all comes down to the definition of tanking, which seems to be up for debate.

Tanking to me always infers intent, you intentionally play worse players, favour/focus on development over winning, sit injured players out longer than they absolutely need to etc. or any combination of the above, all with the goal of losing games for a better draft pick.

I can definitely say that for the most part, once Jak/Scottie went down, we definitely started doing the above. Now, how much of that was due to injuries is up for debate.

A team like the Grizz for example, I wouldn't say they were outright tanking, they just had Ja missing games and never ending injuries. But they most likely milked some of those injuries to be longer.

The Wiz, now that is blatant outright tanking. Raps I'd say were definitely trying to compete as much as possible until the injuries, and then pivoted into like an 85-90% tank. IMO RJ/IQ should've been shut down for the season, but that's splitting hairs.

If we were fighting for the play in, I wouldn't be surprised if Scottie/Jak were rushed back. Looking at Scotties hand though, ehhhh that one is up for debate as well, that did NOT look ready for an NBA game with the level of slapping he gets to his hands.

[reeelax]

To all you salty people, been through the VC, Bargs, Bosh, Demar/Kyle, SpicyP, and Kawhi era, got to witness a chip.

Now we have not a single recognizable face (outside of Boucher) and are in a true rebuild. Sports are a fascinating thing, the team I've been following my whole life is evolving again, we're entering a new era and we get to watch these kids develop into NBA level talent and maybe a few all-stars and maybe even a superstar develops. Chill the hell out and enjoy, sports are supposed to be fun.

Excited about next season, only direction left to go is up.

[dublo7]

I don't think we'll be this bad next season. Injuries and the two trades essentially forced us to tank. With better health and another offseason of growth from the main core of players we should improve. Now that level of improvement probably won't take us out of lottery if we're honest here. The level of talent and competency of the top 6 teams is much higher than our current team.

I think we fight for a Play-In spot but come out short and win low 30s worth of games. Get another top 10 pick to round out the talent.

sounds like the season Houston had this year. though they were 40-40.

[DG88]

Scottie won ROY largely because he came to a competitive team with some very good vets, compared to the teams his draft classmates came to. He had that playoff experience, then a play-in. IQ and RJ came from a pretty competitive team that had a decent playoff run a year ago beating the Cavs and going 6 with Miami.

Having tasted that, and if they are the competitors fans would hope they are, then the prospect of a whole season of losing would have to be very discouraging for them. I can't see the front office not trying to win next year for this reason alone, along with what MLSE would want. The team with the right additions this summer and decent health will be too good to be like Detroit, Washington, Portland this year. Not sure how good but play -in level or fighting for that. Any tank that happens will only be a late pivot after the deadline, based on injuries, like this season. Which may mean a treadmill type scenario, but I can't see any full bottoming out tank happening.

Sure of course they want to be competitive as soon as possible but even Bobby said it won't be 1-2 moves to make that happen it will take several (5-10, in his own words). We need a competent bench and guards to support this iteration of the team. It will take more than one offseason to build that. Look at the bench mob, it took them 16-18 to make that bench. It wasn't one offseason. Also, we need to factor in that we'll still be a young team and versus serious competition it will be hard for them to win. I can expect a mid 30s winning team next year.

[2019nbachamps]

We were the 7th worst team in the league before our trades and injuries. But ok, let’s convince ourselves we tanked to make ourselves feel better.

[C_Money]

I’m all for the rebuild but at the same time I don’t want to sit through another season like this.

So you expect to keep rebuilding but make the play-in?

I think that’s what is going to happen tbh. We’re making a run for the play-in next year.

[Fairview4Life]

We were the 7th worst team in the league before our trades and injuries. But ok, let’s convince ourselves we tanked to make ourselves feel better.

So just to be clear, starting the season with a bad team and making it worse during the season isn't tanking? That's certainly a novel way of looking at things. Maybe those people who wanted to watch a tanking team are trying to no true scotsman this because the actual practice of watching a tanking team really sucks.

[ArthurVandelay]

We were the 7th worst team in the league before our trades and injuries. But ok, let’s convince ourselves we tanked to make ourselves feel better.

Both can be true

It was a bad team, before and after trades, and they took advantage of injuries and tragedy to be as bad as possible.

[mtcan]

We were the 7th worst team in the league before our trades and injuries. But ok, let’s convince ourselves we tanked to make ourselves feel better.

We started the season with a core based around Scottie, Pascal and OG. Darko had a mandate to play Malachi Flynn and Precious Achiuwa actual NBA rotation minutes. Malachi shall never play more than 0 to 4 minutes a game in the NBA on an actual team. Pistons don't count...lol.

The OG trade shook the foundation of the team. That happened in late December but really more like January. Pascal was traded late January. That's a huge change. So the team was already having to change from an offence designed around Scottie, Pascal and OG to that of Scottie, RJ and Quick. Then came the trade deadline and in comes Ochai and Kelly.

So here we are having to integrate RJ, Quick, Bruce Brown (and everyone including Bruce thought he'd be gone at the deadline so he had one foot out the door), Nwora, Ochai and Kelly. 6 new guys in...that's a **** ton of change. Then Scottie and Jak get injured 3 weeks after the trade deadline.

There was NO point in time this season when you had any sense of stability...even at the start of the season when people were still wondering what we would do with OG and Pascal.

But ya...sure keep pointing at a record for a team that is obviously in flux all season long.

Give this current roster a full season before judging it properly.

[2019nbachamps]

We were the 7th worst team in the league before our trades and injuries. But ok, let’s convince ourselves we tanked to make ourselves feel better.

We started the season with a core based around Scottie, Pascal and OG. Darko had a mandate to play Malachi Flynn and Precious Achiuwa actual NBA rotation minutes. Malachi shall never play more than 0 to 4 minutes a game in the NBA on an actual team. Pistons don't count...lol.

The OG trade shook the foundation of the team. That happened in late December but really more like January. Pascal was traded late January. That's a huge change. So the team was already having to change from an offence designed around Scottie, Pascal and OG to that of Scottie, RJ and Quick. Then came the trade deadline and in comes Ochai and Kelly.

So here we are having to integrate RJ, Quick, Bruce Brown (and everyone including Bruce thought he'd be gone at the deadline so he had one foot out the door), Nwora, Ochai and Kelly. 6 new guys in...that's a **** ton of change. Then Scottie and Jak get injured 3 weeks after the trade deadline.

There was NO point in time this season when you had any sense of stability...even at the start of the season when people were still wondering what we would do with OG and Pascal.

But ya...sure keep pointing at a record for a team that is obviously in flux all season long.

Give this current roster a full season before judging it properly.

You realize all these changes were due to poor management by our FO? Then when it was clear we weren't going anywhere and Scottie and Jakob got hurt, we excused our losing as tanking. This is a team that won 3-straight once all season and lost to the likes of the Pistons and other awful clubs. I feel sorry for you if you think a full season together will lead to a different outcome next year. We're probably 2-3 years away from making a jump, and that's assuming our FO get their act together and build a roster of 8-10 guys who belong in the NBA.

[Fairview4Life]

The team was bad and lost a lot but that's not tanking and someone is delusional for saying so?

[SharoneWright]

In the future, people may not ever remember that this team was actually trying to win games until the trade deadline. This was a bad team that got worse and is still hamstrung by a preposterous trade. It’s a long road ahead.

Which preposterous trade? If there was no tanking potion called the lotto the preposterous trade you might be referring to would already be a moot point. It is so NBA to use a gambling gimmick to further hurt markets that can never sign tier 1 free agents. It started with denying us the number 1 pick coming into the league, then the matter of refs continual harrassment and subsequent league fines or the espn national round table of shame and disinterest and this year two investigations including a civil lawsuit from someone who lawyers up to go the bathroom and now the league leaking investigation into a 10 day contractor we had just signed to a regular deal for gambling allegations. The reality is some just plain devalue Poetl as man of less conventional talents. For all we know the FO was hoping the Poetl acquisition might get Paskal to sign an extension. He, Fred and others knew they were hitting the open market long before it happened. The NBA open market architecture ensures teams outside the preferred status arrangement get put in their place. I do not begrudge the FO trying to use Poetl to get a home discount on Paskal. That the tactic failed is the real issue and the why it must tried in the first place.

The FO does not get to skate on the Poeltl trade because there is a lottery. They knew there was a lottery when they made that trade. Neither does the fact that the Raptors were denied the #1 overall pick in 1995 give this management group cover on the trade. Sheer speculation/imagination that Pascal might decide to stay here for a discount to join forces with Jakob Fricken Poeltl Is a remarkably stupid strategy for a FO to take, and you somehow think it’s justifiable? No way that was the reason. Way too many moving parts in free agency. And way too much putting your eggs in one basket. But based on your reasoning, you were probably thrilled with signing Landry Fields to that poison pill contract. 6-D chess! Lol
Management clearly thought this team was going to be a playoff contender when they made that trade. That is nobody else’s fault but theirs. You can’t excuse it. It’s a spectacular failure of judgment and it shouldn’t inspire confidence.

[dohboy_24]

Give this current roster a full season before judging it properly.

After the first 20 games of the season, the Raptors had a record of 9-11 for a 45% win percentage. Should they have continued to win at this rate, they would have made the play-in tournament as the #10 seed just ahead of the Hawks.

For the next 20 games of the season, the Raptors had a record of 6-14 for a 30% win percentage. Winning at this rate, they were on pace to have the 6th worst record in the league.

For the next 20 games of the season, the Raptors had a record of 7-13 for a 35% win percentage. Winning at this rate, they were on pace for the 8th worst record in the league.

For the last 22 games of the season, the Raptors had a record of 3-19 for a 13% win percentage. Winning at this rate, they were on pace for the worst record in the league.

While the lineups were in flux throughout the season, here's the roster of players we have signed or will most likely sign during the offseason (Quickley).

G - IQ, Dick, Brown
F - Scottie, RJ, McDaniels
C - Jakob, KO, Boucher

Assuming we do not re-sign GTJ, that's the core of our 9-man rotation next season.

Add the 2-3 picks from the draft this year and a couple of 2-year, 1-year and 2-way contracts to round out the roster, but that's the roster we're likely going to be putting on the floor barring any trades.

To make the play-in tournament, they'll need to win 45% to 50% of their games next season (37 to 41 wins) to end up as one of the bottom seeds.

Do you believe they'll win at least that many and make the play-in tournament or do you believe they won't and will end up with one of the ten worst records next season?