Toronto Raptors not the Toronto Chris Bosh's

[Scase]

My worry is that next year Bosh is going to play like a douche being desperate to put up big #'s and not be a very good teammate. Bargnani just wants to win.

If one of the two had to go to improve this team I'd hope to god it would be Bosh.

If Bargs wants to win perhaps he can play some help and team defence next year.

Can we just give the GD bargs vs cb crap a rest already god.

[I_Like_Dirt]

But Bosh would get us alot more then Bargs would.

I'm not so sure that's true. Bosh is definitely the far superior player but he's going to be unrestricted and the only teams that are likely willing to trade for him are contenders or are hoping to be in the near future otherwise they risk losing him. Top teams don't want to give up top players, they want to get better, and those teams generally don't have top prospects by virtue of being at the top of the league, and to top it off, most of those teams are lined up for cap space in 2010 when Bosh is unrestricted. Bottom dwellers aren't going to want Bosh since he's going to be paid a lot and if Bosh is going to leave the Raptors he sure as hell will leave a team that's as bad or worse than the Raptors.

Bargnani, on the other hand, is restricted in 2010 and both contenders and bottom feeders might be interested in him and teams with cap room won't be able to poach him away come 2010 so long as his team is willing to match. Ultimately, that's more competition and more reason to drive up Andrea's value - trading high, if you will - as opposed to reasons why Bosh's value is low - selling low, just to avoid potentially selling even lower because the team can't get good players around him.

As for whoever suggested Bargs could be a 24/7 player without Bosh, if he can only be that kind of player without another star on the team then he isn't anywhere close to a winner. If he is a winner, and I suspect he might be eventually, then he will be able to produce regardless of who is on his team. Bosh isn't stopping him from grabbing 7 rebounds a game and towards the end of last season Bargnani was getting more shots than Bosh but was just converting at a much lower level so that Bosh was averaging more than 24 ppg while Andrea was getting closer to 19 ppg despite the slightly more shots. If Bosh can get 24 ppg on that number of shots and Andrea is worth his salt then he can get that number of points with the same shots as Bosh.

[hoop_head]

I guess one of the questions BC must be asking himself is, "If I trade Bosh, do I slide Bargnani to the PF spot, bring in a defensive C for a lot less money (Chris Anderson just for giggles?), and obtain my wing upgrades via Bosh?"

Interesting question. Bosh is going to cost max money to keep, Bargnani I see in the 12-14 million range. The Raps need long-term solutions at SG & SF.

If Bosh & Bargnani both play the entire season next year in Raps uniforms, this discussion might be a bit different. Bosh's production has been steady for the past 4 seasons now. Bargnani is still putting things together. It's a bit of a stretch to think about now, but what if Bargnani's game takes another step forward in 09-10? Could it come to pass that Bargnani might warrant a max contract? Not that BC would be the guy offering, but some other team drooling for quality PF/C?

Who knows....if that did happen, we would be both blessed and cursed with options.

[KING01]

As long as Bosh is here, this is Bosh's team.

Bargs is good, but he is not ready to be a leader.

Lets see BC do some tinkering to this team before we break up B&B

Peace

[Ramen Monster]

We won't get fair value trading Bosh, if you can keep him, keep him, and figure out a way to improve the rest of the roster. You can't trade him for a single player better than he is (unless you're trading with Memphis, see kwame for gasol), no one is going to gut their team to get Bosh, it makes no sense, and especially not when you can potentially sign him in 2010 as an FA without losing anything. That's why usually when you trade a franchise/star player away, you're in rebuild mode; you go for expiring and draft picks and youth (high potential/ceiling players) and you do it from the ground up, hope to score in the draft, develop your youth, see what works what doesn't, etc.

If you say we can't win if he's our best player, then how is trading him for rotational/borderline star players going to improve the team, unless you're fleecing someone. The only reason you trade Bosh is either to rebuild, or, if you're optimistic, to retool in hopes you have another star in waiting OR in the very unlikely scenario where you somehow magically get a bunch of amazing players as a steal (again see kwame for gasol). I don't mind seeing Bosh go either, but only for the right package; I don't much care if he wants to stay or not right now lol, if we surround him with the right talent, and we start winning, he'll want to stay and it'll be easier to sign other players. Right now you keep Bosh because he's your best player, especially when it's obvious the rest of the roster is the problem.

[5DOM]

if nba gm's were so smart, they wouldn't be nba gm's.

yeah they would be realgmers.

[kingr]

Bargs could be a 24 ppg 7 rpg type with Bosh not here. Im inclined to ditch Bosh and get a crash and bang 4 or 5 to play with Bargs (eg. Scola). Lets get our offense from the other positions like most teams.

Or, trade Bargs and get a crash and bang C to play with Bosh.

Who are you and what have you done with FV4L?

[Dr Positivity]

Great post

The world will not end even if we trade Bosh for Hickson and a 1st. With Bargnani, #9, and what we get for Bosh, considering we're not bogged down cap-wise we'll have the flexibility to rebuild just fine with whoever we get

After all, we only had 1.75 bad seasons after the Vince trade before winning 47 games. Imagine if we actually got something for him or didn't draft Haffa and Joey Graham. Rebuilding after a star trade always goes quicker than expected. Colangelo himself traded Marbury for picks and capspace and won 60 games the year after

[sh00n]

I can't think of too many teams that won with a PF as the star player.

We cannot compare Malone or Duncan to Bosh. Bosh is not up to that standard.

How the hell does that make any sense? You say you can't think of anyone whose won with their PF being their best player, yet the ones that do, Bosh doesn't compare to. Why even make the point in the first place?

[Double Helix]

It's true that the world won't end and that some Raptor fans, as well as many Canadians in general, are a little insecure but I'd also hate to see the Toronto fanbase become something like the Philadelphia fanbase where we just boo everybody and are known for lack of tact.

I also think that same Canadian insecurity can cause some to overreact and forget that pro sports plays by its own rules. It's become cliche to say it and yet still some forget it. This is a business first and foremost. Some fans almost expect players in Toronto to act exactly like the hard-working, Canadian born and raised fans on the message board. It's almost as if some of us want them to constantly reassure us saying things like, "Toronto is the greatest city in the world and I'm going to become a Canadian citizen some day and never live in America again! This snow's not so bad! At least my son and I can get out and curl/play hockey. I hope to retire up here and have my grandchildren say, Thank you, pappa, for making us Canadian."

Every player once making it to the league and earning their first million dollars is in it for themselves and their families first. Imagine yourself as a Canadian basketball player for a moment and being drafted to Oklahoma for the sake of this point. Your contract is almost up and you've had far more losing seasons in Oklahoma than good ones. Imagine that team didn't have Kevin Durant and you were instead one of 3 good players on the team and everybody kept saying you weren't good enough to get them over the hump anyway. Suddenly free agency is around the corner and for the first time in your 5 years you have the opportunity to play wherever you want in North America, including coming back to your home town Toronto Raptors (who let's just pretend have put together a very good young team that only lacks the position you play). Wouldn't you consider your options? Wouldn't you be excited at all the possibilities? If you're saying to yourself, "Most certainly not. I would only ever play for the city that drafted me for ever, no matter how the organization operates" than you're a far bigger man than I. Even Ray Borque (a standup hockey guy) had his limits and couldn't do it all by himself)

The team comes first, but Chris Bosh has been a good member of the team and plays his position well. He's also still a member of the team. I just don't see why so many are set to turn on him because of the above scenario. Business is business. Now it's up to Colangelo to make it compelling. Nobody wants to give up the prime of their life/career "just 'cause."

[Canucklehead]

no one is going to gut their team to get Bosh, it makes no sense, and especially not when you can potentially sign him in 2010 as an FA without losing anything.

Role players are a lot easier to replace. Bosh would be a key player in any teams drive towards a championship and could put any contender over the top as a favorite to win it all thus why most should and would be willing to gut a large part of there depth to grab him now.

Also there is the issue of capspace in 2010. If you acquire him now you're essentially doing a 2010 salary dump freeing you to grab those appropriate role players for your newly styled contender in 2010.

That being said if we dump Bosh for role players I'm going to Snap

[Raps in 4]

We were never the Crhis Bosh's. It's fine to call Cleveland the Lebron's or Miami the Wade's. because those are genuine one-man teams where the superstar can win games on his own. Bosh can't do that, sadly.

[Tha Cynic]

As far as I am concerned, this is the Toronto Chris Bosh's until he's traded.

Truer words haven't been spoken. This roster is nothing without Chris Bosh.

[Shaazzam]

Well said yet again DH. Kudos.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Well said yet again DH. Kudos.

It's a good point, but do you really see all those who are off the Bosh bandwagon as being so becasue he may not re-sign? I mean that to me, seems like a way to push aside actual criticisms of his and our teams performance. I mean, some of our guys used to other teams boards bragging about our core with Bosh, and how good he is, and we placed in in the top of polls here as the best player to build around. I always thought itwas baloney, imo and we were overrating him. He's good, but if VC was here, does he avg 20? If we didn't make him the franchise guy and put him in that position, is he good enough to go to any other team and enjoy the same success? What really has he won in the NBA? Sure you can blame his team . But isn't that the point, that this is a team game and not a "franchsie player" and a bunch of other guys.

I thought after the Nets series, that Bosh has a lot to prove if we are going to bank on him. Every time he'd impress me, like at the Olympics, he'd lose me again, with not playing Defense, with breaking off plays, taking too long to make decisions, and getting on his teammates for his own shortcomings.

How about the lack of comradarie, leadership and toughness this team has had? I look squarely at him. He's the identity and we need an identity change. How about playing a bit of defense last season and we could have been in the playoffs. How about being prone to being rattled and having your game fall off for long stretches when the pressure is on as Bosh has been prone to do. His season averages might be consistent, but month to month he's not. You just hope he's not going to go into his funks at a bad time. But hey maybe if we stop putting pressure on him, he won't have those right. Sorry to whom much is given much is asked. But I don;'t think the guy who wants fans "to IDK just sit there I guess" understands. It's not all about, oh he's going to leave me. For me, it's like oh no, I hope we don't commit long term to him. Plus he looks like a pansy out there.

[Fairview4Life]

Would you still feel that way had you gotten that Tshirt in the mail the first time you ordered it?

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Would you still feel that way had you gotten that Tshirt in the mail the first time you ordered it?

You and I were having it out about me questioning Bosh's toughness a year before that. I was still a fan, and I still do like Bosh, I just lost a little faith. Is there something in my three or so years of posting here that makes you think I'd be that fickle or irrational? (maybe, maybe not) You may not agree with me, and that's alright, I'm in no way threatened or at all put out by someone not thinking the same thing I do. I 'm not going to questions the motivation behind yours or other's opinions. If you could accept my observations as just the opinion I form when I watch the game too and not something sinister rooted in bias or hate or lunacy, and agree to disagree, I'd appreciate it.

[Fairview4Life]

I like the Tshirt explanation better. I found that story of woe really funny for some reason.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I like the Tshirt explanation better. I found that story of woe really funny for some reason.

Why? The T-shirt promotion experience made me feel Maxdeal Tech was a joke, and annoyed me.

[Shaazzam]

Well said yet again DH. Kudos.

It's a good point, but do you really see all those who are off the Bosh bandwagon as being so becasue he may not re-sign? I mean that to me, seems like a way to push aside actual criticisms of his and our teams performance. I mean, some of our guys used to other teams boards bragging about our core with Bosh, and how good he is, and we placed in in the top of polls here as the best player to build around. I always thought if was baloney, imo. He's good, but if VC was here, does he avg 20? If we didn't make him the franchise guy and put him in that position, is he good enough to go to any other team and enjoy the same success? What really has he won in the NBA? Sure you can blame his team . But isn't that the point, that this is a team game and not a "franchsie player" and a bunch of other guys.

I thought after the Nets series, that Bosh has a lot to prove if we are going to bank on him. Every time he'd impress me, like at the Olympics, he'd lose me again, with not playing Defense, with breaking off plays, taking too long to make decisions, and getting on his teammates for his own shortcomings.

How about the lack of comradarie, leadership and toughness this team has had? I look squarely at him. He's the identity and we need an identity change. How about playing a bit of defense last season and we could have been in the playoffs. How about being prone to being rattled and having your game fall off for long stretches when the pressure is on as Bosh has been prone to do. His season averages might be consistent, but month to month he's not. You just hope he's not going to go into his funks at a bad time. But hey maybe if we stop putting pressure on him, he won't have those right. Sorry to whom much is given much is asked. But I don;'t think the guy who wants fans "to IDK just sit there I guess" understands. It's not all about, oh he's going to leave me. For me, it's like oh no, I hope we don't commit long term to him. Plus he looks like a pansy out there.

I never assume all people feel the same way about anything. And I've never thought that CB4 could be the best player on the court for 82+ games. He is an exceptional player though, and he needs to play with other exceptional players. He's not perfect, which many people seem to want him to be. Yes he can be better, and I must admit because of TSN2 I didn't get to see as much of this season as I would have liked. But I have to say, and I am one of the biggest homers around here, I had this team pegged at about 41 wins last year. As for monthly flows, players are going to have peaks an valleys. You need other guys to step up and contribute. That's what winning teams do. But they just didn't have the horses.

Yes Chris can play better, but so can the rest of the team. And it needs better players.