OT: Rank the top 5 GM's

[Mirage]

I like Buford, Presti, and Morey.

San Antonio is always making great moves, and it is really impressive how they've been run over the years. I give Buford a lot of credit for what he has done there.

Presti was part of the San Antonio front office, and since taking over Oklahoma City, he has been doing well. I really like his approach to building a team. I suppose we won't really know how his work there turns out for a few more years, but everything looks like it's on the right track.

Morey is great at figuring out how to evaluate defense. I think he is probably the best GM in the NBA at this. I also think that it's awesome that he's a stats guy. If he ever manages to get some reliable superstars, that don't get injured so much, then look out.

[sanity]

You could theoretically say that Brian was 'gift wrapped' Bosh and Calderon as some posters are pointing towards Kupchak having Bryant and O'neal. The mess the Lakers were in just over a year ago could have turned into something much worse - instead they're the team to be beaten now (the Gasol trade was an absolute steal, no matter how you put it).

Are you seriously comparing Bosh and freaking Calderon to a young Kobe and a prime-time Shaq? Kupchak got Odom AND Butler for O'Neal but then traded Butler for some guy named Kwame Brown. LOL @ anyone who all of a sudden thinks Kupchak is a great GM. What's next, Danny Ferry being a great GM?

No, I'm seriously freaking saying that Colangelo came here when the 'core' of this team was already in tact. Outside of drafting Andrea, and overspending this summer, he hasn't done anything noteworthy. Kupchak is a better GM than Colangelo simply because his team actually won. He managed to dump the trash, get his team to the finals, then eventually win.

As far as accomplishments goes, where does Colangelo compare? Is the Kwame Brown acquisition involving Butler that much worse than what we gave up for Jermaine O'neal, or the acquisition of Marion and Banks (who's still penciled in on the roster btw), or perhaps the salary he gave Kapono? Seriously, what has Colangelo's moves accomplished, outside of salary dump for an eventual overspending on an unrestricted free agent that turned into a S&T to preserve a small exception? Did you also forget how Kupchak got Gasol? Yeah. Nothing Colangelo has done amounted to that kind of steal, so LOL @ your argument.

The team he built in Pheonix was nothing but a pretender. It still remains to be seen what his team can do now, but as far as 'the best team he's ever built', your standards have to be severely low to believe that amounts to actually competing for something. Top 5 - my ass. If anything, blame circumstances of player injuries, not his track record which led his teams nowhere.

[Homer Jay]

How about 5 worst (excluding Clipper and Grizzles who have incompetent, cheap ownership with no interest in winning):

Note most of these guys have been fired over the last year, but I include them because their team sucks RIGHT NOW because of them.

1) Kevin McHale. So many mistakes... from the Joe Smith bull, to turning down Chicago's superior offer for Garnett, to firing Flip Saunders. Minny is going to continue to be really bad for a really long time.

2) Isiah Thomas. Often accused of building a fantasy team rather than a real basketball team. Who in their right mind would think Z-Bo and Eddy Curry could co-exist. Wasted draft picks trying to scoop people (Nate and Lee... GOOD, Balkman BAD). Wasted two high lottery picks to get Eddy Curry. No regard for the cap or lux tax. Also threatened to fight another team's player (Kenyon Martin).

3) Rod Higgins. Charlotte has been spinning its wheels for a couple of years now, and it definitely lays at the feet of Higgins (with a generous assist by MJ). Poor drafting, and seemingly on the wrong side of every trade. Maybe it's ownership, maybe it's just incompetence.

4) Larry Bird. To his credit built a 60-win team... then screwed it up royally. The team is not just in cap hell, but has to let players walk for nothing out (JJ) of fear for the tax. You sometimes hear of championship caliber team's having tax problems, but not a team 3 years in the lottery! Draft selections, other than Granger have been poor, with no impact. This team will take years to sort out the financial mess. Larry... no more white guys!

5) John Paxson. Hit and Miss at drafting (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Rose GOOD.... Noah, Thomas BAD). Made a good move trading Curry and Davis for 2 NY draft picks... then ruined it by using the cap space to sign an over-the-hill Ben Wallace. Should have traded Deng for Gasol when he had the chance. Also let Tyson Chandler walk for nothing. Fired a good coach in Scott Skiles.

[inonba]

You could theoretically say that Brian was 'gift wrapped' Bosh and Calderon as some posters are pointing towards Kupchak having Bryant and O'neal. The mess the Lakers were in just over a year ago could have turned into something much worse - instead they're the team to be beaten now (the Gasol trade was an absolute steal, no matter how you put it).

Are you seriously comparing Bosh and freaking Calderon to a young Kobe and a prime-time Shaq? Kupchak got Odom AND Butler for O'Neal but then traded Butler for some guy named Kwame Brown. LOL @ anyone who all of a sudden thinks Kupchak is a great GM. What's next, Danny Ferry being a great GM?

No, I'm seriously freaking saying that Colangelo came here when the 'core' of this team was already in tact. Outside of drafting Andrea, and overspending this summer, he hasn't done anything noteworthy. Kupchak is a better GM than Colangelo simply because his team actually won. He managed to dump the trash, get his team to the finals, then eventually win.

As far as accomplishments goes, where does Colangelo compare? Is the Kwame Brown acquisition involving Butler that much worse than what we gave up for Jermaine O'neal, or the acquisition of Marion and Banks (who's still penciled in on the roster btw), or perhaps the salary he gave Kapono? Seriously, what has Colangelo's moves accomplished, outside of salary dump for an eventual overspending on an unrestricted free agent that turned into a S&T to preserve a small exception? Did you also forget how Kupchak got Gasol? Yeah. Nothing Colangelo has done amounted to that kind of steal, so LOL @ your argument.

The team he built in Pheonix was nothing but a pretender. It still remains to be seen what his team can do now, but as far as 'the best team he's ever built', your standards have to be severely low to believe that amounts to actually competing for something. Top 5 - my ass.

I beg to differ. First, the ENTIRE NBA, fans, journalist, players, GMs saw the Gasol trade as ludicrous. It wasn't Kupchak brilliance, but rather Memphis's incompetence. Look no further than to see what Memphis has done this summer. The cap space cleared from the Gasol trade was used to acquire....Zach Randolph.

Very simple way to test your theory. If Kupchak was the GM of the Toronto Raptors, do you think he could of acquired Gasol for nothing? Since we are talking about GM skills here, what do you think he would have done differently to improve this team?

For those who think highly of Kevin Pritchard, I suggest you do the same test. If Pritchard was the GM of the Phoenix Suns, what could he bring to the table that will turn them into a contender? How well do you think he would be doing having to sell off all his picks instead of buying them up from troubled franchises?

Phoenix was NOT a pretender. Outside of San Antonio, how many teams in the NBA during the years when Phoenix was winning 60+ games could take them down? You say they weren't top 5...fine. You should have no problem naming 4 other teams that year that would have knocked Phoenix out.....good luck. Remember, how many rotational players Phoenix had to give up during that time, not to mention their injury troubles, suspensions, draft picks.

Finally, the Caron Butler for Kwame Brown trade is one of the most lopsided trade in NBA history! In comparison, the Jermaine O'Neal comparison doesn't even come close. Remember, TJ Ford in Indiana isn't exactly tearing it up, and Roy Hibbert isn't looking to be much either. We're talking about the bust of the decade that I'm surprise is still in the league vs all-star 2 way player on a really, really good contract here.

[inonba]

How about 5 worst (excluding Clipper and Grizzles who have incompetent, cheap ownership with no interest in winning):

Note most of these guys have been fired over the last year, but I include them because their team sucks RIGHT NOW because of them.

1) Kevin McHale. So many mistakes... from the Joe Smith bull, to turning down Chicago's superior offer for Garnett, to firing Flip Saunders. Minny is going to continue to be really bad for a really long time.

2) Isiah Thomas. Often accused of building a fantasy team rather than a real basketball team. Who in their right mind would think Z-Bo and Eddy Curry could co-exist. Wasted draft picks trying to scoop people (Nate and Lee... GOOD, Balkman BAD). Wasted two high lottery picks to get Eddy Curry. No regard for the cap or lux tax. Also threatened to fight another team's player (Kenyon Martin).

3) Rod Higgins. Charlotte has been spinning its wheels for a couple of years now, and it definitely lays at the feet of Higgins (with a generous assist by MJ). Poor drafting, and seemingly on the wrong side of every trade. Maybe it's ownership, maybe it's just incompetence.

4) Larry Bird. To his credit built a 60-win team... then screwed it up royally. The team is not just in cap hell, but has to let players walk for nothing out (JJ) of fear for the tax. You sometimes hear of championship caliber team's having tax problems, but not a team 3 years in the lottery! Draft selections, other than Granger have been poor, with no impact. This team will take years to sort out the financial mess. Larry... no more white guys!

5) John Paxson. Hit and Miss at drafting (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Rose GOOD.... Noah, Thomas BAD). Made a good move trading Curry and Davis for 2 NY draft picks... then ruined it by using the cap space to sign an over-the-hill Ben Wallace. Should have traded Deng for Gasol when he had the chance. Also let Tyson Chandler walk for nothing. Fired a good coach in Scott Skiles.

Isiah Thomas, Scott Layden, Kevin Mchale, Danny Ainge, Billy King, Mitch Kupchak, Rick Sund, Billy King, Chris Mullin, the last couple of GMs of the Bucks were all notoriously bad. Not suprising, most of those guys don't have jobs anymore.

[sanity]

I beg to differ. First, the ENTIRE NBA, fans, journalist, players, GMs saw the Gasol trade as ludicrous. It wasn't Kupchak brilliance, but rather Memphis's incompetence. Look no further than to see what Memphis has done this summer. The cap space cleared from the Gasol trade was used to acquire....Zach Randolph. *1

Very simple way to test your theory. If Kupchak was the GM of the Toronto Raptors, do you think he could of acquired Gasol for nothing? Since we are talking about GM skills here, what do you think he would have done differently to improve this team? *2

For those who think highly of Kevin Pritchard, I suggest you do the same test. If Pritchard was the GM of the Phoenix Suns, what could he bring to the table that will turn them into a contender? How well do you think he would be doing having to sell off all his picks instead of buying them up from troubled franchises? *2b

Phoenix was NOT a pretender. Outside of San Antonio, how many teams in the NBA during the years when Phoenix was winning 60+ games could take them down? You say they weren't top 5...fine. You should have no problem naming 4 other teams that year that would have knocked Phoenix out.....good luck. Remember, how many rotational players Phoenix had to give up during that time, not to mention their injury troubles, suspensions, draft picks. *3

Finally, the Caron Butler for Kwame Brown trade is one of the most lopsided trade in NBA history! In comparison, the Jermaine O'Neal comparison doesn't even come close. Remember, TJ Ford in Indiana isn't exactly tearing it up, and Roy Hibbert isn't looking to be much either. We're talking about the bust of the decade that I'm surprise is still in the league vs all-star 2 way player on a really, really good contract here. *4

Don't have much time right now, so I'll be brief with a response.

for: *1 -- Jerry West's influence on the trade is debatable. Point is, it happened, and LA won that trade. Its no different than how Milwaukee screwed themselves trading Kareem, but it does not mean that Kupchak had no input at all in the results. His team still reaps the benefits in the end, and that's all that matters. Losers are not remembered and incompetence doesn't justify why the trade doesn't work for LA.

2*/2b* -- But he's not the Raptors GM. Inversely, I could say - if Colangelo was the GM of San Antonio, would he dump Tim Duncan for a jumpshooting center? If he were the GM of the Pistons circa 2002/2003, would he have ignored the toughness/defensive aspect? The results of team success trumps the woulda/coulda/shoulda. Players are not given first place awards for finishing last, and neither should GMs. Injuries happen, **** happens - but results are results. Luck is just as an important factor for HoF players having the careers they have... as some of the players that are forgotten and leave the basketball world into obscurity without anything (Ex. Mitch Richmond). The same is true for GMs.

3* -- What I meant when I said "top-5 - my ass", was about Colangelo as a current top-5 GM. But I'll play for a bit. Dallas got further and accomplished more with a less talented roster and still remained just as competitive while losing pieces and retaining their core player. All the hype Pheonix got as an offensive powerhouse only mattered when it came to the first round series against the depleted Lakers. The trade of Joe Johnson could have very well been prevented, we do not know for sure - or won't ever know (there was internal problems concerning him anyway). It was Colangelo's decision and he made it. Even with him, Pheonix was always flaky on the defensive end and were always the poster boy example used by nba theorists as to why defense wins championships.

4* -- The results still speak for themselves. You can say its lopsided, but when you see the Lakers raising another banner and still acting routinely as a legitimate finals competitor - the trade has little bearing on the overall success of the team. Colangelo's flop of a trade involving O'neal very well pushed this franchise back --- and added certainty to Bosh's disgruntlement with the team. Kwame was in-turn, flipped for Gasol. It was a means to an end - like I said, the results say more than the processes, and it is why Colangelo is not in the same realm as the better GMs in this league. He very well can be, but he's not right this instant. He still has much to prove, as does the Raptors as a competitive team.

[J Dilla]

Buford, Dumars, Morey, Otis, Presti

[inonba]

Don't have much time right now, so I'll be brief with a response.

for: *1 -- Jerry West's influence on the trade is debatable. Point is, it happened, and LA won that trade. Its no different than how Milwaukee screwed themselves trading Kareem, but it does not mean that Kupchak had no input at all in the results. His team still reaps the benefits in the end, and that's all that matters. Losers are not remembered and incompetence doesn't justify why the trade doesn't work for LA.

2*/2b* -- But he's not the Raptors GM. Inversely, I could say - if Colangelo was the GM of San Antonio, would he dump Tim Duncan for a jumpshooting center? If he were the GM of the Pistons circa 2002/2003, would he have ignored the toughness/defensive aspect? The results of team success trumps the woulda/coulda/shoulda. Players are not given first place awards for finishing last, and neither should GMs. Injuries happen, **** happens - but results are results. Luck is just as an important factor for HoF players having the careers they have... as some of the players that are forgotten and leave the basketball world into obscurity without anything (Ex. Mitch Richmond). The same is true for GMs.

3* -- What I meant when I said "top-5 - my ass", was about Colangelo as a current top-5 GM. But I'll play for a bit. Dallas got further and accomplished more with a less talented roster and still remained just as competitive while losing pieces and retaining their core player. All the hype Pheonix got as an offensive powerhouse only mattered when it came to the first round series against the depleted Lakers. The trade of Joe Johnson could have very well been prevented, we do not know for sure - or won't ever know (there was internal problems concerning him anyway). It was Colangelo's decision and he made it. Even with him, Pheonix was always flaky on the defensive end and were always the poster boy example used by nba theorists as to why defense wins championships.

4* -- The results still speak for themselves. You can say its lopsided, but when you see the Lakers raising another banner and still acting routinely as a legitimate finals competitor - the trade has little bearing on the overall success of the team. Colangelo's flop of a trade involving O'neal very well pushed this franchise back --- and added certainty to Bosh's disgruntlement with the team. Kwame was in-turn, flipped for Gasol. It was a means to an end - like I said, the results say more than the processes, and it is why Colangelo is not in the same realm as the better GMs in this league. He very well can be, but he's not right this instant. He still has much to prove, as does the Raptors as a competitive team.

I hate to see what kind of nonsense you can come up with when you have time. We're talking GMs here so I could only assume you are judging management skills here. LA success is more Kobe Bryant's play, Phil Jackson coaching, and Memphis' incompetence than Mitch Kupchak brilliance. If someone else can replace Kupchak and duplicate LA's success, then he's not the reason for their success....is it really that hard to understand? Even if you don't acknowledge what Colangelo has done, it's no reason to give other people's credit to someone that clearly doesn't deserve it. Explain to me how someone else incompetence highlights the ability of the other? Does it take a big man to steal candy from babies? Do you show that you have the best salesman skills by bilking old ladies of their retirement funds?

In the real world results don't speak for themselves and the circumstance in how you arrive at your goal DOES matter, because there's one thing you always look for....repeatability. From your argument, 2 guys, 1 made 5 million dollars through hard work. The other won 10 million dollars playing the lotto 649. By your argument, you would rate the guy who won the lottery higher than the guy who worked hard, well since he did have a say in which numbers he chose. So if you were to hire someone to run your organization, you would hire the person that has been twice as successful by your logic right? I mean the results speak for themselves, right? Do you honestly think Kupchak can do another Gasol for nothing like trade again? Would you be worried if the guy you were hiring has a history of trading potential all-stars for bust of the decade?

To answer your question, would Colangelo trade Tim Duncan for a jumpshooting center....the answer is NO. Find me a GM in the league who would say yes? You can ask it, but you're not making a point, nor are you adding any value to your argument.

You say Phoenix isn't a contender, fine. Yet the best you can do is name 1 team that can take them out, which is debatable. So again, by your logic, there were only 2 title contenders that year?

[jay632]

lakers gm, are in contention every year, yeah, they got kobe, but you need a team
spurs gm, again, another team in contention every year in the west
jazz gm, they are in a every year in the west with no true superstar

i got more respect for gm's in the west, if you aren't careful, you will end up like vancouver, every move is critical.

[sanity]

I hate to see what kind of nonsense you can come up with when you have time. We're talking GMs here so I could only assume you are judging management skills here. LA success is more Kobe Bryant's play, Phil Jackson coaching, and Memphis' incompetence than Mitch Kupchak brilliance. If someone else can replace Kupchak and duplicate LA's success, then he's not the reason for their success....is it really that hard to understand? Even if you don't acknowledge what Colangelo has done, it's no reason to give other people's credit to someone that clearly doesn't deserve it. Explain to me how someone else incompetence highlights the ability of the other? Does it take a big man to steal candy from babies? Do you show that you have the best salesman skills by bilking old ladies of their retirement funds?

In the real world results don't speak for themselves and the circumstance in how you arrive at your goal DOES matter, because there's one thing you always look for....repeatability. From your argument, 2 guys, 1 made 5 million dollars through hard work. The other won 10 million dollars playing the lotto 649. By your argument, you would rate the guy who won the lottery higher than the guy who worked hard, well since he did have a say in which numbers he chose. So if you were to hire someone to run your organization, you would hire the person that has been twice as successful by your logic right? I mean the results speak for themselves, right? Do you honestly think Kupchak can do another Gasol for nothing like trade again? Would you be worried if the guy you were hiring has a history of trading potential all-stars for bust of the decade?

To answer your question, would Colangelo trade Tim Duncan for a jumpshooting center....the answer is NO. Find me a GM in the league who would say yes? You can ask it, but you're not making a point, nor are you adding any value to your argument.

You say Phoenix isn't a contender, fine. Yet the best you can do is name 1 team that can take them out, which is debatable. So again, by your logic, there were only 2 title contenders that year?

Christ. Blind faith man. Results do matter, because they are the basis by which success is judged, and really, going 6 seasons back doesn't justify the current situation Colangelo is in nor does it justify his lack of competence. Ad hominems aren't worthy of my time. Good day.

[inonba]

Christ. Blind faith man. Results do matter, because they are the basis by which success is judged, and really, going 6 seasons back doesn't justify the current situation Colangelo is in nor does it justify his lack of competence. Ad hominems aren't worthy of my time. Good day.

Do you even know what blind faith, ad hominems mean?

Obviously not, considering your whole argument is based on blind faith MAN.

[Hendrix]

Kupchak deserves recognition for the Gasol trade. Even if you consider it mismanagment by Memphis, it was Kupchak who took advanatge of it, and not the other 28 potential GM's around the league. Also has had some great draft picks w/ Bynum, Farmar, Turiaf, Marc Gasol. A ring, plus they are set up to win now, and be good in the future.

Thumbs up by me.

[MattBoner]

5) John Paxson. Hit and Miss at drafting (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Rose GOOD.... Noah, Thomas BAD). Made a good move trading Curry and Davis for 2 NY draft picks... then ruined it by using the cap space to sign an over-the-hill Ben Wallace. Should have traded Deng for Gasol when he had the chance. Also let Tyson Chandler walk for nothing. Fired a good coach in Scott Skiles.

he also passed up trading for Kobe IIRC

[sanity]

Christ. Blind faith man. Results do matter, because they are the basis by which success is judged, and really, going 6 seasons back doesn't justify the current situation Colangelo is in nor does it justify his lack of competence. Ad hominems aren't worthy of my time. Good day.

Do you even know what blind faith, ad hominems mean?

Obviously not, considering your whole argument is based on blind faith MAN.

Actually. I provided evidence... not, perception of circumstances based on events that did not happen. You should re-think your arguments and grab a dictionary while you're at it. Don't bother responding.

[sanity]

Kupchak deserves recognition for the Gasol trade. Even if you consider it mismanagment by Memphis, it was Kupchak who took advanatge of it, and not the other 28 potential GM's around the league. Also has had some great draft picks w/ Bynum, Farmar, Turiaf, Marc Gasol. A ring, plus they are set up to win now, and be good in the future.

Thumbs up by me.

I wholeheartedly agree. The results of his decisions has earned his team the ability to contend while getting younger in the process. Bynum was a great first round pick.

[D-Wins-RingsIMO]

Buford
Ainge
Pritchard
Presti
Morey

BC is definitely top 10.

What the **** has Colangelo accomplished to put him on lists ahead of Dumars and Ainge?

I put the 2 P's up b/c I think they're going to be owning the league for the next decade provided the salary cap rules don't change a lot. I reserve the right to revise my list if they **** the bed in the next year.

Put Morey up just b/c I think he's more analytical than everyone else other than the RC & Pops combo.

[Fairview4Life]

Buford
Ainge
Pritchard
Presti
Morey

BC is definitely top 10.

What the **** has Colangelo accomplished to put him on lists ahead of Dumars and Ainge?

I put the 2 P's up b/c I think they're going to be owning the league for the next decade provided the salary cap rules don't change a lot. I reserve the right to revise my list if they **** the bed in the next year.

Put Morey up just b/c I think he's more analytical than everyone else other than the RC & Pops combo.

I don't really care about any of these what have you done for me lately subjective rankings of a position none of us really understand. But if Colangelo gets the "what the **** has he accomplished" line, Presti, Pritchard, and Morey shouldn't really all get a pass on that one.

[satyr9]

I buy the arguments about location being key against Kupchak (and really anyone in LA, NY, or BOS when you want to make them), but not against Pritchard. Pritchard has basically an unlimited budget, but instead of doing what every single GM with a huge budget has done in the past, he built a team. It is true that there aren't many other places that would've given him 3 million extra a year to buy more first rounders, or keep taking on the Francis and LaFrentz contracts of the league to keep adding young value and create a real window of opportunity, but unlike almost every GM that's been handed the keys to a big bank vault with almost no basketball assets, he didn't throw the money around at the most expensive guys available from the get go. His approach may look like common sense, but it's hardly the most often used one in his situation.

Anyway, my list (and Dumars probably deserves it for his past, but for the last year I just can't do it):

Buford
Morey
Pritchard
Colangelo
Presti

And for me it's Buford on top, then 2-5 could probably include 3 more guys that I have a hard time really ranking between them.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Buford
Ainge
Pritchard
Presti
Morey

BC is definitely top 10.

What the **** has Colangelo accomplished to put him on lists ahead of Dumars and Ainge?

I put the 2 P's up b/c I think they're going to be owning the league for the next decade provided the salary cap rules don't change a lot. I reserve the right to revise my list if they **** the bed in the next year.

Put Morey up just b/c I think he's more analytical than everyone else other than the RC & Pops combo.

I don't really care about any of these what have you done for me lately subjective rankings of a position none of us really understand. But if Colangelo gets the "what the **** has he accomplished" line, Presti, Pritchard, and Morey shouldn't really all get a pass on that one.

Ahh... You beat me to it!

[inonba]

Christ. Blind faith man. Results do matter, because they are the basis by which success is judged, and really, going 6 seasons back doesn't justify the current situation Colangelo is in nor does it justify his lack of competence. Ad hominems aren't worthy of my time. Good day.

Do you even know what blind faith, ad hominems mean?

Obviously not, considering your whole argument is based on blind faith MAN.

Actually. I provided evidence... not, perception of circumstances based on events that did not happen. You should re-think your arguments and grab a dictionary while you're at it. Don't bother responding.

No you did not. All you have said is that result matter, and how you arrive at it doesn't!

Add 3 more words that you don't understand what it means. 1. Evidence 2. Perception 3. Circumstance

Oh yeah....don't bother responding. The growing list of words you clearly don't understand is growing rather large. Next, I'll have to teach you how to make an argument.