The "R" word that Raptors fans fear

Habibi · Post #61 » by **Habibi** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:42 am

I don't think we need to do a full rebuild. There are some solid pieces on this roster that I wouldn't mind having as part of the core going forward.

Bargnani is value at his current contract. We just need to make him the primary scorer, and surround him with people that can complement him with a greater defensive presence. His skill set is clearly more suited towards PF.

Amir Johnson had lots of potential before, and he's been very good for us.

Marco Belinelli looks like the poor mans Manu Ginobli at times.

Demar Derozan is young and full of potential. We'll see what he becomes when he grows up.

I wouldn't mind seeing a team built around these four players. They're all young enough that we have a solid window to put a team around them. I feel like Bargnani especially can be a very good piece if he is surrounded by the right players. I'm not saying Bargnani is a franchise level all-star talent. I'm saying that for his contract, he can deliver incredibly efficient offense and be a reliable primary scorer.

I really think succeeding at the NBA level is all about maximizing your cap space and contract value. This team is full of bloated contracts and that's why it's pretty much impossible for us to contend. Bosh at the max is just a commodity that we can't afford unless we're willing to go deep into the luxury tax. Bosh is worth the max, but the frivolous contracts we've given out to role players has ensured we can't put a competitive team around him if that much of our payroll is committed to him.

I'd feel a lot better about this teams future if we could trade Jose for an expiring, and if we can't do that, then we should trade Hedo. I'd rather see Jack start, and Hedo be our primary ballhandler/playmaker though. Jose really doesn't bring anything to the table that this team truly, desperately needs.

J Dilla · Post #62 » by **J Dilla** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:00 am

A rebuild is not possible.

Bargnani has a 5 year contract, Turk has 4 years after this, Jose has 3 years, Jack has 4 years, Marcus Banks has 2 more years. And if we re-sign Bosh you'll know damn well this team won't rebuild. They'll just need to find takers for Jose and Bargnani.

vini_vidi_vici · Post #63 » by **vini_vidi_vici** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:30 am

So all we need is Kobe or LeBron, why arent more GMs this insightful?

Darkseid · Post #64 » by **Darkseid** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:19 am

we dont need to rebuild cause we have talent song long term new thread plz

SkywalkerAC · Post #65 » by **SkywalkerAC** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:07 am

How about the tank and retool method? Bosh and Calderon for Yao and picks and Lowry and filler.

More and more I can't help but feel that the easy prey in our upcoming schedule isn't going to be so easy by the time we get to them. Jettison Bosh and we're going to get leapfrogged by pretty much every team in the East that isn't the Nets.

Raps get a top 8 pick in the draft. I'd lean towards the best long athletic winger available - Evans or Aminu I'd hope.

We're left with 3 strong, (fairly) defensive point guards in Lowry, JJ, and Banks.

On the wing we'd have a very good two-way rotation, good to go for next season and the future. DD, Turk, Aminu, Belli looks good to me. One vet, one gunner, and two athletes.

Finally at the 4/5 we'd have our inside-out twin towers, Yao and Bargnani. Re-sign Amir and you've got him and Evans off the bench.

Finally, (I think) you're left with room under the lux tax to add a full MLE guy and believe me, there are going to be some damn good players going for a lot less. And you've got Houston's pick to go for extra upside/athleticism/depth.

Lowry/Jack
DD/Belli
Turk/Aminu
Bargs/Reggie
Yao/Amir

+MLE
+draft picks

Yao's a risk but he should exercise his option and come off the books with Evans and Banks in 2011. He'd makes MLSE a crapload of money and might even make us a great team. Footspeed and foot injuries would be a concern but you can structure a real defense around a real center like Yao, and the offense would still be there.

A complete rebuild definitely isn't the only way to drastically change the team.

dacrusha · Post #66 » by **dacrusha** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:49 pm

Penis wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I believe that it's time for the Raptors to rebuild. They shouldn't re-sign Bosh since he's more of a building piece (like Pau Gasol) than a franchise player. In addition, they should just tank this season to get a top-notch franchise player. I would rather have a guy like Kobe and Lebron who can carry a team on their backs scring 40+ a night than have Bosh, who's more of a second option for a good team . Don't get me wrong, Bosh is a great player, but most PFs not named KG or Duncan have a hard time carrying their teams far let alone in the playoffs with a horrible core. That's why I would rather have a good swingman as a franchise player rather than a PF. The only problem is, the Raptors should've started rebuilding around another player a long time ago. Sadly enough, BC, like most Raptor fans, do not have the word "rebuilding" in their vocabulary. I'm, tired of seeing 5-6 new faces every year. The Raptors' lineup in a yearly basis is as inconsistent and unpredictable as Dennis Rodman's hair color. I know BC is trying his best to bring stars ever year (JO, Turk), yet his experiments fail due to their age and their injuries. The Raptors should just rebuild with young and fresh new faces. The 47 win season gave us false hopes. It indicated that the Raptors were a top 5 team in the East in a year when the Atlantic division was at its lowest point. I'm tired of expecting them to win 50 games every year when they can't even reach the playoffs. The team's mediocrity is making me sick and like Barrack Obama, I believe that it's time for a change .

Which banned poster are you?

ahandle · Post #67 » by **ahandle** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:04 pm

Penis wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I believe that it's time for the Raptors to rebuild. They shouldn't re-sign Bosh since he's more of a building piece (like Pau Gasol) than a franchise player. In addition, they should just tank this season to get a top-notch franchise player. I would rather have a guy like Kobe and Lebron who can carry a team on their backs scring 40+ a night than have Bosh, who's more of a second option for a good team . D

everyteam wish they had a kobe or lebron to carry the team on their backs and scoring 40+ a night. its easier say then done.

ansoncarter · Post #68 » by **ansoncarter** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:09 pm

no on Yao. He's old and he's the same as evans his foot is cursed

Local_NG_Idiot · Post #69 » by **Local_NG_Idiot** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:18 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:Rebuilds are tricky beyond simply choosing a time and having the determination to carry it through, though; you need to have a certain degree of roster flexibility, or it's dead in the water from the start. We were in such a position early this off-season...we had only one difficult to move long-term contract in Calderon, Bargnani was still on rookie scale with no trade restrictions, and Bosh had a full year remaining. And for that reason, a few around here advocated an off-season that didn't pile on additional money; try to keep Bosh, but keep the options open for a rebuild.

With Bargs extended and Hedo signed, I'm no longer sure that we can even execute a proper rebuild...Hedo/Jose are damned near impossible to move, Jack probably isn't much easier, and we don't even have any cheap incentive save for DeRozan if we were looking to aggressively dump players for expiring deals.

Which leaves us with a big problem: is it possible to rebuild with two aging, offense-only players taking up over a third of our cap space for the next three years? Because the only thing worse than a half-assed retooling is a half-assed rebuild that leaves you in exactly the same position (or worse), just a few years down the road; the temptation for BC -- or for any GM, for that matter -- would be to try to get something out of their presence by hastening the rebuild.

Given everything, I'm just not sure that we can pull off an immediate rebuild that has much hope of raising the team beyond mediocrity...that ship sailed in July. However, I would

I don't know Shad, I think there are still deals that could be made during this season to dump quite a bit of salary and gain a few picks in the process.

IMO Cleveland is actually a good Trading partner with an expiring Big Z where you could either move Hedo/Bargs with Banks. I think a very good shooting big like either of them would compliment Shaq and Varajao very well up front.

I also think Utah would be inclined to visit a Boozer/Bosh trade that involved that NYK 1st if Boozer starts missing some games again, and Utah feels they can win with Bosh and resign him with the talent they would have on that roster.

There's also McGrady's big expiring contract that the Raps might be able to make a bid for at 25 cents on the dollar depending where the Rockets end up in the standings closer to the deadline.

I think the deals are out there, however I don't think BC will pull the trigger in this manner on a full rebuild with salary dump and aquiring picks. I don't think he's the type to admit defeat like that especially after the major overhaul to the roster he just did. I think the moves he will probably make if he feels this team can't compete will be more of the same as we've seen in the past which is attempt to move peices for a high risk, high reward type move.

RonaldArtest · Post #70 » by **RonaldArtest** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:19 pm

SkywalkerAC wrote:How about the tank and retool method? Bosh and Calderon for Yao and picks and Lowry and filler.

More and more I can't help but feel that the easy prey in our upcoming schedule isn't going to be so easy by the time we get to them. Jettison Bosh and we're going to get leapfrogged by pretty much every team in the East that isn't the Nets.

Raps get a top 8 pick in the draft. I'd lean towards the best long athletic winger available - Evans or Aminu I'd hope.

We're left with 3 strong, (fairly) defensive point guards in Lowry, JJ, and Banks.

On the wing we'd have a very good two-way rotation, good to go for next season and the future. DD, Turk, Aminu, Belli looks good to me. One vet, one gunner, and two athletes.

Finally at the 4/5 we'd have our inside-out twin towers, Yao and Bargnani. Re-sign Amir and you've got him and Evans off the bench.

Finally, (I think) you're left with room under the lux tax to add a full MLE guy and believe me, there are going to be some damn good players going for a lot less. And you've got Houston's pick to go for extra upside/athleticism/depth.

Lowry/Jack
DD/Belli
Turk/Aminu
Bargs/Reggie
Yao/Amir

+MLE
+draft picks

Yao's a risk but he should exercise his option and come off the books with Evans and Banks in 2011. He'd makes MLSE a crapload of money and might even make us a great team. Footspeed and foot injuries would be a concern but you can structure a real defense around a real center like Yao, and the offense would still be there.

A complete rebuild definitely isn't the only way to drastically change the team.

Bosh + Calderon + Wright + Banks
for
Yao + Battier + Hayes + Lowry + 2010 pick

Post #71 » by **The Duke** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:01 pm

I agree, even tho its hard to see now, there are viable rebuilding moves BC can make this season. Moves that I'd like him to undertake. Unfortunately, we're fooling ourselfs thinking Colangelo will slightly entertain that thought process......

Spartan13 · Post #72 » by **Spartan13** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:07 pm

We absolutely can rebuild. If the Knicks contracts were movable, so are ours.

The question is will we rebuild? Colangelo has answered that many times. NO. MLSE is slow to even want to rebuild the Leafs and the Raptors see way bigger drops in revenue when they arent competitive.

ansoncarter · Post #73 » by **ansoncarter** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:21 pm

The Duke wrote:I agree, even tho its hard to see now, there are viable rebuilding moves BC can make this season. Moves that I'd like him to undertake. Unfortunately, we're fooling ourselfs thinking Colangelo will slightly entertain that thought process......

we could have a team stacked with lotto picks and prospects if we really went after it imo

just use this season to showcase bargnanis, turk and jose, and talk bosh into signing with intent to trade later. Or worst case, just sign/trade him

-one lotto caliber prospect for bargs
-two for bosh if we talk him into re-signing with intent to trade next year, or whenever we can
-our own lotto pick

derozan, 3 lotto pick level players, then throw in whatever we get for jose and turkoglu and suddenly we have one of those exciting upcoming teams. We'd all become super homers again and piss off the rest of realgm with how great we'll become and how playerX is the next kobe etc. Would be fun.

dacrusha · Post #74 » by **dacrusha** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:29 pm

ansoncarter wrote:
The Duke wrote:I agree, even tho its hard to see now, there are viable rebuilding moves BC can make this season. Moves that I'd like him to undertake. Unfortunately, we're fooling ourselfs thinking Colangelo will slightly entertain that thought process......

we could have a team stacked with lotto picks and prospects if we really went after it imo

just use this season to showcase bargnanis, turk and jose, and talk bosh into signing with intent to trade later. Or worst case, just sign/trade him

-one lotto caliber prospect for bargs
-two for bosh if we talk him into re-signing with intent to trade next year, or whenever we can
-our own lotto pick

derozan, 3 lotto pick level players, then throw in whatever we get for jose and turkoglu and suddenly we have one of those exciting upcoming teams. We'd all become super homers again and piss off the rest of realgm with how great we'll become and how playerX is the next kobe etc. Would be fun.

Exciting like the Wolves? or Nets? or Kings? or Knicks?

Teams don't win by tanking for the lottery.

Kevin Willis · Post #75 » by **Kevin Willis** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:32 pm

I thought it was recession.

ansoncarter · Post #76 » by **ansoncarter** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:36 pm

dacrusha wrote:

Exciting like the Wolves? or Nets? or Kings? or Knicks?

Teams don't win by tanking for the lottery.

exciting like portland, oklahoma, etc.

teams win by building through the draft

Dr Positivity · Post #77 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:53 pm

If A is a bottomed out lotto team, B is a middle ground mediocore one with one star but no help, and C is a contender

What tankers believe is that you can jump directly from A to C, do not pass go. Therefore if we're B we should regress to A. But in reality almost all title teams go from A to B, then B to C. This is because the oppurtunity to take a step forward is as prevalent in internal development, trades, free agency, as it is in the draft lottery. As I mentioned before:

2009 Lakers - Had Kobe, Odom for a while, making them a 1st seed knockout type. Then they fluke out by getting Gasol for expiring and become top flight.

2008 Celtics - Pierce carried that "treadmill" team for 8 years, then all stars aligned for Garnett and Allen to come in

99/2003/2005/2007 Spurs - David Robinson played his entire prime looking for help. Then it came via Tim Duncan, through ultimate luck (missing the entire year AND winning the #1 pick). Later the Spurs built Duncan's support through steals in Parker and Ginobli

2006 Heat - Wade, Butler, Odom were "good", then they packaged the latter 2 for Shaqtus

2004 Pistons - Completley built out of free agency and trading

2000-2002 Lakers - Shaq signed in free agency. They got Kobe with the 13th pick

Other teams who got close: Nash's Suns - Signed Nash in free agency then watched him become a multiple MVP level player. Got Amare and Marion with mid level picks.

Melo's Nuggets - Failed in the 1st round for 5 years with Melo. Then traded AI for Billups and had their team take off

Dirk's Mavs - Got Josh Howard with the 30th pick

Why does everyone want to go backwards when history says the most success is by being a good team when "lucky sh*t" (which the draft equally is, don't fool yourself) happens. When a bottomed out team has lucky sh*t happen, they become a good team. When a good team has lucky sh*t happen, they become a great team.

Everyone orgasms over Oklahoma City and Portland, but what have they won compared to the above teams? The Thunder have Durant and a ton of good not great young players (Westbrook, Harden, Green). Portland I'm more enthused about, but they had a brilliant two drafting years, getting the two best players in the draft in 06 then fluking out with their 1.5% chance the next year and landing Oden. Otherwise they're in the same position we are in the Bosh era. Roy, a mediocore second guy and Aldridge, and not much else.

iBaller12 · Post #78 » by **iBaller12** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Until last season Bosh did seem like the Pau Gasol type of player. But this year, we all got to admit that he is capable of being the main guy. It's just that you need to surround him with good defenders.

Tim Horton · Post #79 » by **Tim Horton** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:00 pm

i think they fear the "D" word more.

Dr Positivity · Post #80 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:05 pm

There is as great a chance of Derozan, Bosh and Bargnani learning to anchor a respectable d and epic offense at the same time, or Colangelo pulling a franchise turning deal, as there is us getting a star in the lottery.

Furthermore the latter option has a very good chance of putting us where we are now with one stud and nothing else, whereas if the first happens we're presumably set.

People are really underestimating how torturous the draft lottery is. Everyone wants to be Portland/Oklahoma City. It's not as fun when you're Charlotte or Atlanta and the best player you draft in 5 years is Josh Smith or Emeka Okafor. Or you end up with a bunch of losers like OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay who don't want to win