Why do people think JJ is a good defender?

[Reignman]

+100

How can anyone possibly believe this? I can't think of anything Jose does on defense that is "smarter". Do you guys believe that clapping your hands and yelling at opposing players when they're going to shoot constitues smart defense?

Agreed. If anything, Jack's the smarter defender. Remember that game against Houston where he sat on Carl Landry? That's smart D.

That game was a great example of what Jack can do on defense. Didn't he also hold Brooks to 5/20 shooting or so? I also remember him getting switched with Landry on another play and Jack was able to push him out of the post.

I'm sure many posters in this thread don't even notice stuff like that, they see both PGs getting beat off the dribble and then you have a stupid thread like this.

[Duffman100]

I think Calderon is a smarter defender, but he doesn't have Jacks' physique
About the same in rebounding

+100

How can anyone possibly believe this? I can't think of anything Jose does on defense that is "smarter". Do you guys believe that clapping your hands and yelling at opposing players when they're going to shoot constitues smart defense?

We agree on so many things Hendrix...I've noticed this over the years.

[Too Late Crew]

Being "good" is relaitive. Compared to all NBA starting PGs Jack might be average or even below. In order to be "good" you must be compared to something. To be good you must be better than "most" I guess.

Compared to Jose Jack is "good" becuase regardless of what anyone tries to sell me my observations (and the data) tell me that Jose is BAD. The simple fact that a PG is small or lacks lateral quicks etc does not make him "bad" on defense. People harp all the time about how bad Nash is. Nash is wually among the leaders in scharges drawn. He makes some positive contibutions despite his waknesses.

Jose doesn't draw charges. He gets blown by often.

[Greg Stink]

Being "good" is relaitive. Compared to all NBA starting PGs Jack might be average or even below. In order to be "good" you must be compared to something. To be good you must be better than "most" I guess.

Compared to Jose Jack is "good" becuase regardless of what anyone tries to sell me my observations (and the data) tell me that Jose is BAD. The simple fact that a PG is small or lacks lateral quicks etc does not make him "bad" on defense. People harp all the time about how bad Nash is. Nash is wually among the leaders in scharges drawn. He makes some positive contibutions despite his waknesses.

Jose doesn't draw charges. He gets blown by often.

This. This is so freaking wrong.

Jose is not good. That does NOT mean Jack IS good.

You're only measured against your opponent. If both guys are getting worked on one end, then you give the ball to the guy who makes more happen at the other end.

[Rapcity_11]

For anyone who thinks Jose is a better help defender you need to understand that help defense isn't floating around in no mans land and getting lost. For PG's it's basically coming with hard double teams and closing out to shooters, both things that Jack is better at.

Jose has been better/improved his help defense actually, Jack has been worst. Anyone watching Calderon would know that he's actively using his hand coming over to double and knocking the ball out of the players hand a few times. Been closing out consistently too. Jose does a great job of spacing between who the man he helps and his man. Jack doubles, but it's useless, didn't you see when Price and Watson hit two threes on him? So much for hard doubles…

To be honest I haven't really seen much of the past few games, however I'm basing my analysis on Jose's past 3 years and this year from Jack.

Since neither PG can contain their man, defense is more about making "plays", and Jack certainly has the edge there.

[Lakonomy]

6 pages, no one has much in the way of actual stats to back there stuff up.

Ok, well, some JC stats are at http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR1.HTM

and JJ at http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR3.HTM.

1. Is JJ a better rebounder?

JJ has grabbed 8.2% of the defensive rebounds available to him, and 1.2% of the offensive.
Calderon has grabbed 6.1% of the defensive and 1.0 of the offensive.

Per 48 minutes, JJ grabs 4.4 rebs (at PG), while JC grabs 3.3.

Conclusion: JJ is the better rebounder, although the difference is not all that great.

2. Is JJ a better defender?

JJ has a PER of 16.1 at PG, while his opponents have a per of 17.1. When JJ is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 51.5%, vs 49.5% when he is off.

JC has a per of 18.1, but opponent PG have an average PER of 23.4. The JC is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 52.4, vs and eFG% of 49.3 when he's off.

Conclusion:

JJ is not a good defender. Most PGs in the league exploit him. Our opponents shoot better when he's on the floor than when he's off.

JC is a historically bad defender. He is actually quite decent on O, but he makes his opponents look like all stars. our opponents shoot much better when he's off the floor than when he's on.

[dTox]

Is it a mere coincidence the op brings up the 06/07 season to back up Jose's defensive capabilities and during that time Jose was BENCH PLAYER playing roughly 24 mpg, and is using Jose's recent games as well to defend him where jose is again COMMIN OFF THE BENCH playing 24 mpg, maybe, just maybe it is a good idea to leave Calderon on the bench where he excels no?

[dTox]

Being "good" is relaitive. Compared to all NBA starting PGs Jack might be average or even below. In order to be "good" you must be compared to something. To be good you must be better than "most" I guess.

Compared to Jose Jack is "good" becuase regardless of what anyone tries to sell me my observations (and the data) tell me that Jose is BAD. The simple fact that a PG is small or lacks lateral quicks etc does not make him "bad" on defense. People harp all the time about how bad Nash is. Nash is wually among the leaders in scharges drawn. He makes some positive contibutions despite his waknesses.

Jose doesn't draw charges. He gets blown by often.

This. This is so freaking wrong.

Jose is not good. That does NOT mean Jack IS good.

You're only measured against your opponent. If both guys are getting worked on one end, then you give the ball to the guy who makes more happen at the other end.

yes but as one of the poster mentioned earlier in this same page

JJ has a PER of 16.1 at PG, while his opponents have a per of 17.1. When JJ is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 51.5%, vs 49.5% when he is off.

JC has a per of 18.1, but opponent PG have an average PER of 23.4. The JC is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 52.4, vs and eFG% of 49.3 when he's off.

you play the guy who brings more to the table and even though Jack is slightly worst on offense, Jose negativity on defense is to much for him to make up for it on the other end, so it would make no sense in playing a guy who lets his opponent outplay him by that much /end thread

[Duffman100]

6 pages, no one has much in the way of actual stats to back there stuff up.

Ok, well, some JC stats are at http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR1.HTM

and JJ at http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR3.HTM.

1. Is JJ a better rebounder?

JJ has grabbed 8.2% of the defensive rebounds available to him, and 1.2% of the offensive.
Calderon has grabbed 6.1% of the defensive and 1.0 of the offensive.

Per 48 minutes, JJ grabs 4.4 rebs (at PG), while JC grabs 3.3.

Conclusion: JJ is the better rebounder, although the difference is not all that great.

2. Is JJ a better defender?

JJ has a PER of 16.1 at PG, while his opponents have a per of 17.1. When JJ is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 51.5%, vs 49.5% when he is off.

JC has a per of 18.1, but opponent PG have an average PER of 23.4. The JC is on the floor, our opponents shoot an eFG% of 52.4, vs and eFG% of 49.3 when he's off.

Conclusion:

JJ is not a good defender. Most PGs in the league exploit him. Our opponents shoot better when he's on the floor than when he's off.

JC is a historically bad defender. He is actually quite decent on O, but he makes his opponents look like all stars. our opponents shoot much better when he's off the floor than when he's on.

Thank you. I was lazy and not doing the work.

You proved my point. CenturySam?

[Too Late Crew]

Being "good" is relaitive. Compared to all NBA starting PGs Jack might be average or even below. In order to be "good" you must be compared to something. To be good you must be better than "most" I guess.

Compared to Jose Jack is "good" becuase regardless of what anyone tries to sell me my observations (and the data) tell me that Jose is BAD. The simple fact that a PG is small or lacks lateral quicks etc does not make him "bad" on defense. People harp all the time about how bad Nash is. Nash is wually among the leaders in scharges drawn. He makes some positive contibutions despite his waknesses.

Jose doesn't draw charges. He gets blown by often.

This. This is so freaking wrong.

Jose is not good. That does NOT mean Jack IS good.

You're only measured against your opponent. If both guys are getting worked on one end, then you give the ball to the guy who makes more happen at the other end.

no its not wrong.

I didn't say that I consider Jack good. The Title of the thread is "Why do people THINK JJ is a good defender".

I answered why they THINK that. I never said he IS good . Good is a realitive term I don't control the standard for "Good". The posters on thios board all have their own standard for good. Many of them appear to have a standard that compares a players defense to the alternative. Comapared to Jose Jack is "good" Set a different standard Jack is not "good"

That fatc that YOUR standard is "You're only measured against your opponent. " has nothing to do with why OTHER people with different standards think Jack is good.

[jrsmith]

I think Calderon is a smarter defender, but he doesn't have Jacks' physique
About the same in rebounding

hahaha

[Anatomize]

Calderon is a smarter defender, really? I want everyone here to track Calderon during the next game in New York, when he is off the ball he is easily amongst the worst in defensive awareness, legitimately. Watch him sway his head uncontrollably looking for his man and trying to run around doubling everyone when his man doesn't have the ball, it's atrocious. Calderon also has little clue about leading his man towards a charge or a shot blocker, where as Jarret Jack usually does a good job impeding progress or creating some resistance on the way to the bucket. It is no surprise that we've given up over 100 points in all games since Jose's return, remarkably. It's almost like Jose thinks playing defense off the ball is the same as playing PG on offense, with court vision.

Good defense is about shadowing your man even when he doesn't have the basketball, not cutting under screens if he's a shooter, getting up close if he lacks handles, or keeping back and forcing him to shoot jumpers (RONDO). When I watch Calderon try to apply backcourt pressure to Rondo, it makes me want to punch a wall.

In 12 games without Jose our average opponent PPG: 97

[Lakonomy]

^^^ all true. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that because Jose is an incredibly bad defender, Jack is good. He's not.

Stats show that opponent PGs play quite well against JJ, and opposing teams shoot more efficiently when he's on the floor vs when he's off.

Jack is not a good defender, it's just that Jose is really, really bad.

[Enfur]

lmao, can someone explain how opposing PGs shoot better when Jack is on the floor than off when he's Jose Calderon's backup. Like I take it you guys are assuming that Jose mostly goes on for him when he's off the floor except for the stretch where Banks was playing. The other time opposing PGs might be grilling us when Jack's on the floor is....... when Calderon's playing PG in the CACK lineup? Funny how Jose Craperon's D can still skew Jack's stats a bit to make him look worse than he actually is and you nuthuggers try to pin it solely on JJ.

JJ is leagues ahead of Calderon in D, let's not complicate things too much now.

[Lakonomy]

Actually, the PER numbers are PG specific - i.e. do not include when JJ is playing SG. The eFG% of opponents is, as you correctly point out, a blended number. While one way of viewing this is that JC playing with JJ may drag JJs number down, it is also important to note that JJ is a terrible defender of the opposition SG when he plays SG. Opponent SG's average a PER of 24.1 when Jack plays SG. Given this, it's just as fair to say that JJ's terrible defense on SGs drags JC's opponent eFG% down.

If you want to look at the stats and assumptions and coming up with logical reasons why they are not relevant, I highly recommend doing so. All it takes is a quick visit to http://www.82games.com.

This doesn't make things complicated, and there is no "nuthugging." The conclusions are simple:

Jack is both a better rebounder and a better defender than JC, but, as the stats show, in the grand scheme of things, he's still not a very good defender.

[Fats Elmore]

Ok so going by the chosen stats so far:


I'm not really a fan of these stats but they did sort of confirm the placement I had in mind. I still feel comfortable saying Jack is good. He's gives us a fighting chance. Jose...a lot has to go right for us to win.

[Enfur]

Actually, the PER numbers are PG specific - i.e. do not include when JJ is playing SG. The eFG% of opponents is, as you correctly point out, a blended number. While one way of viewing this is that JC playing with JJ may drag JJs number down, it is also important to note that JJ is a terrible defender of the opposition SG when he plays SG. Opponent SG's average a PER of 24.1 when Jack plays SG. Given this, it's just as fair to say that JJ's terrible defense on SGs drags JC's opponent eFG% down.

If you want to look at the stats and assumptions and coming up with logical reasons why they are not relevant, I highly recommend doing so. All it takes is a quick visit to http://www.82games.com.

This doesn't make things complicated, and there is no "nuthugging." The conclusions are simple:

Jack is both a better rebounder and a better defender than JC, but, as the stats show, in the grand scheme of things, he's still not a very good defender.

'

Ok so explain how JJ comes off the floor as a PG then the other team's PG gets better defended when it's JC going in, when those same stats show that JC is a terrible defender himself. Or did Banks do such a good job defending PGs in his short stint of playing that it skewed those numbers enough to make JJ look like a bad defender? Were opposing PGs up against Banks so scared of him that they just started throwing the ball into their own hoop and giving themselves negative points? I just don't see how these seemingly directly contradicting stats can fit.

If that's the case, can we just start Banks and then have JJ back him up?

[Paperclip]

From reading this thread and the stats..

basically they both suck but Calderon sucks more, therefore it is NOT a wash. Makes sense to me from what I been seeing.

[Lakonomy]

Ok so explain how JJ comes off the floor as a PG then the other team's PG gets better defended when it's JC going in, when those same stats show that JC is a terrible defender himself. Or did Banks do such a good job defending PGs in his short stint of playing that it skewed those numbers enough to make JJ look like a bad defender? Were opposing PGs up against Banks so scared of him that they just started throwing the ball into their own hoop and giving themselves negative points? I just don't see how these seemingly directly contradicting stats can fit.

If that's the case, can we just start Banks and then have JJ back him up?

Let's start with the first point - We have three PGs - JJ, JC, and Banks. Banks is by far the best defender, as judged by opponents eFG%. Jack is better, and JC is the worst. We have been looking at opponent eFG% when a player is on or off the floor. Judging any one of the players, say JC, compares the Raptors eFG% when Jose is playing PG vs when anyone else (i.e. JJ or Banks). The team is, clearly worse with JC on the floor. Same for JJ. Banks, on the other hand, is a good defender, and the teams opponent eFG% is significantly lower with him on the floor than with others.

Second point, can we start Banks?

Answer: no. PGs have many duties in addition to limiting opponent eFG%.

[Nostradunkus]

Because they hate Calderon.

Any JJ love is actually just Calderon hate.