2013 Draft

[pickIBL]

the only question left. will montoya see the light... or is he still favoring wolters. Cuban could do it

[slc24]

How can anyone say that Schroder isn't a PG?

I was very impressed by his decision making in the Hoops Summit. Constantly looking to make the right play. Looked very good in the P&R, didn't take bad shots, etc.

Granted, it's only one game, but by watching highlights I imagine this is how he plays usually. If he isn't a PG I don't see how anybody in this draft is.

[pickIBL]

Schroeder now sits at 20 on the DX board.

[Inigo Montoya]

ugh, i just don't get it. he really wasn't that good. i wasn't impressed. he did show very good speed and quickness and some burst - but we already knew all that. for physical attributes and athleticism, you don't need to watch this particular game, like you don't need to watch how andrew wiggins is doing in this game in order to know that he can jump.

he just doesn't make me believe that he can be an efficient scorer in the NBA. i'm not talking about putting up a lot of points, but whatever he will score, it won't be in high FG%. his shot looks slow and funky. as for his passing - i wasn't really impressed. yes, he has decent court vision, but his passes were off the mark all night long. he turned over the ball quite a few times when trying to pass, and didn't know what to do when the defense collapsed on him when he penetrated and turned over his passes. even the passes he didn't turn over, they were off the mark. the defense was able to read his passes and deflect them, taking away many easy baskets. and when his passes did get to their target, they were still off and not on the money, so the recipient had to adjust himself in order to catch them, which took him away from his route and took away the split second advantage you need to have with the perfect pass so you can go straight to the basket before the defense closes your path, or the split second you need to catch the ball and get off your shot before the defense gets to you. his passes actually really reminded me of mo's passes - always a little off, just enough to take away the offense's advantage.

overall, he didn't really show me anything i didn't know about him or see earlier. he's still a combination of collison\beaubois\jeff teague\kabongo - a fast, quick PG who can maybe defend a bit, but will never be a big scorer or score efficiently, who is just an average passer. overall, for me his ceiling still remains the same - an average PG that is not a building block and that his contribution can be replaced\found relatively easily in free agency. the hype he's getting now is....annoying. and yes, i've seen many of DX's quotes and tweets about him - they are at fault in over hyping him more than anyone. they get like that sometimes, start liking a player and be overly complementary about him. just like they did with Biyombo. i'm not comparing the two as basketball players because one of them clearly is and the other one (Biyombo) really isn't. but the hype process seems the same. don't like it. regardless of wolters, i hope the jazz pass on both kabongo and Schroeder.

here's a boxscore of the game:
http://pics.lockerz.com/s/289971971

5-10 FG, 1-2 3PT, 7-10 FT for 18pts, 2rbs, 6ast, 3to. looks nice, but it is mostly because the US team fouled him a bunch in the last two minutes so they could close the gap, and he had that uncontested layup at the very end. i also counted more than 3 turnovers, but oh well.

btw, exum looked really good.

[reapaman]

Last night confirmed everything I mentioned earlier imo. Not a good decision maker, weaknesses are exposed when guys collaspe and rotate correctly on him, not a good passer, shooting mechanics are weak, an ok defender, ect..

As Inigo said .... he's a Beaubois, Collison, A.Brooks, J.Teague, Mabey L.Williams type of guy. I don't know pick one but those can be decent contributors with the right team but nothing to get excited about and easy to find in free agency.

[KDBG]

Hmmm... Inigo and Reap, I'm guessing you're not really fans of the kid, lol. Fair enough.

I'm not going to say Shroeder was amazing, but he was good. The thing that stood out to me, was that although he got a little out of control sometimes, he almost always looked to make the right play. I counted about 4 times that he found an open man who missed an easy layup or open jumpshot. He could have easily had 9 or 10 assists in that game. And holy hell he has a quick first step. I also liked that he was always aggressive in constantly pushing the ball up the floor.

I would say more, but I think I've already stated enough in this thread of my opinion on Dennis. What I will do though is post an interesting post from Jazzfanz. This poster is probably one of the most knowledgable, respectable guys on that site. This was his in-depth take on Dennis Schroeder:

-My interest in a PG begins and eventually ends with whether they can play PnR or not. Why? Besides that as a fanbase, we should know just how effective it can be, I think it's the greatest play in basketball. It's simple enough to teach, but the fundamentals of the play with the right players are very difficult to guard. Within one idea and the right players, you can get just about any shot you want between the two players (assuming you don't have AK and Ronnie Brewer as your other "perimeter" players). It's the play that simultaneously makes your PG a threat and keeps others involved. IF I HAVE NOTHING ELSE in a point guard, I want them to be able to run a PnR. That this kid has a great feel for it is a terrific sign.

-Love the defensive potential/ability.

-Love that he has ENOUGH of a grip that he CAN shoot lights out. Maybe the numbers listed in that video are an aberration, but guys that cannot shoot can't do that. And he's young, so the general trend on shooting is likely only to improve anyway. HOWEVER, if a PG is lacking in the shooting department, you would certainly hope they have speed to still be able to put pressure on a sagging defense. If this kid has both? HOLY. ****.

-Worrying about mid-range is stupid at this juncture. For starters, he's very young. You should only be taking mid-range shots if you can't get anything in the paint (including a foul) or a 3. Don't get me wrong, mid-range is important. Mostly when the clamps come down and you need a guy to take whatever shot he can get (i.e. end of clock situations), but the Jazz aren't at a point where they need hero ball yet, and if you have a player that is a threat to get to the rim and can also hit threes, developing a mid-range game is probably more a matter of time than anything else.

-He needs to work on his ability to finish. Although I'm less concerned with that because he's getting to the line and PGs that burn their way to the basket commonly put their team at a disadvantage defensively as such baskets can lead the other team to answer by getting out in transition quicker (as PGs are usually the first guys back on D and PGs usually lead breaks). BUT, the defense HAS to react to a guy getting to the basket that fast, and that will get him to the line or likely open someone else up.

-He's YOUNG. And European basketball is not clearly inferior to college basketball. Is Schroeder's level of competition any less than that of Nate Wolter's, Damian Lillard's, Jimmer Fredette's, CJ McCollum's, etc?

-I'm not looking for a superstar necessarily. I'm looking for a guy that gets his team the best baskets possible. I see that here. The fact that he has the potential to be a HUGE impact player is almost gravy. The fact that he fits into a tanking scenario makes this all the more beautiful.

All that said, I really try not to get ahead of myself and I'm naturally averse to group think. I haven't seen almost any real-game footage and I'm not an expert. But that speed and PnR ability really impressed me. On top of that, the Jazz need a PG desperately and I am not excited about what will likely be left for the Jazz. Like, really not excited (sorry, I don't share the boner for McCollum).

[pickIBL]

sometimes the emotional aspect of things gets in the way of just seeing this guy can play really well. nobody wants to say they were wrong... or they didn't see this kid coming. Outside of Burke (and maybe CJ) this kid is the best long-term prospect I see. But I can't help but wonder with Schroeder would do against younger guys in the NCAA with all the talent around him that Burke had. Food for thought.

Schroeder is now rated above Wolters and Kabongo by pretty much all the NBA teams right now... and he is approaching the top tier of available PGs in this draft. I think he could go as a high as the 2nd PG taken or as low as the 4th PG taken

[Inigo Montoya]

KDBG - i hate you for posting this JazzFanz post. if i had to comment on everything that i think is wrong in that post, it will not fit in one page of this thread. but just the fact that the guy played in Europe for a few years and wasn't on the radar of anyone and hardly on anybody's mock, and now after one exhibition game shoots up to lottery territory, should tell you everything you need to know about how serious all these evaluations are and and how the hype machine works. this is the Biyombo case all over again, only this time it is with a guy who can actually play.

in this specific post, i'm not commenting on how good or bad i think Schroeder is. for all intents and purposes we can all say he's really really good if it makes anyone happy. but he's been doing it all year, and also a year before. yet no one cared. so he may have been really good all year but it didn't help him in the mock even though he played against good, professional competition (if we go with your premise about the german league). but suddenly a few tweets and comments from DX before the hoop summit and he's all the rage.

it actually doesn't even matter what he did in that (meaningless) game. we can differ about if we think he played well or not. yet now he's in lottery territory. but karasev clearly wasn't playing all that well and really didn't leave a mark, yet he also shot up the DX mock after the game. so...you basically just need to be in the game and they'll shoot you up the ladder. doesn't matter if you played well or not in a meaningless exhibition game, as long as you played in it.

clearly playing in the very strong russian league and the highest levels of european basketball and international basketball (with the russian national team) against NBA level players and actual NBA players doesn't really matter for a guy's ranking in a mock, or at all. all that matters is that he stepped on a floor of a meaningless exhibition game. that will do the trick. even if you don't play well. and that, my fried, is what undue\undeserved\misguided\irrational hype is all about. and unfortunately then we need to live with all the over the top gushing from regular people like ourselves. and i thought Naked Blood made me sick. rant over.

[pickIBL]

pickIBL - i hate you for posting this JazzFanz post..

what the hell man.

[slc24]

The Hoop Summit isn't really a meaningless game though. The players are carefully chosen, and the teams are actually coached to win --- not to just entertain like Jordan Brand and McDonalds. And Schroder played really really well against what is generally considered one of the best classes of American high school players in the past decade.

So if he's playing really well in Europe you still could make an argument that the competition is inferior. But then he does the same thing against a very highly touted group of players (specifically Harrison and Hill, who at this time are considered lottery picks next year), who are actually trying to win (hence the use of double teams, and Mike Jones putting Hollis-Jefferson, the USA's best defender, on him at the end to try and bother him with length, as he was blowing by Harrison and Hill at will), you can see why the game isn't meaningless, and why people are now high on him.

He also only had 3 turnovers, which is impressive considering the amount of time that was spent double teaming and trying to get the ball out of his hands. With 6 assists, that's a 2:1 A/TO and much better than you are trying to make it seem.

If Wolters went into a similar game against the best players in the country and put up similar numbers as Schroder, I think we would all be more excited about him. It's hard to take him more serious than a late first/early second right now, but if he played against the best players his own age (like Schroder did), and played very well, showing elite ability in some areas, I would expect him to jump into the lotto. (Especially since the best players Wolters' age would include Irving, Knight, Marshall, ect.)

[pickIBL]

schroeder got pressed and he was up for. the international team runs a zone and parker is bitching about it after the game. that's freakin awesome. just wait til college. you mean i can't just run down the floor like in an all star game and dunk? wtf

[Winglish]

I have only seen Schroder play one game (Hoops Summit)...Just got through watching the replay on ESPN3. I will say one thing: Anyone who thinks he was short of excellent in that one game either does not know the game of basketball or has an agenda against the guy. Schroder was a floor general in every sense. His passes were crisp and on the money. He set his teammates up and gave them easy looks at the basket. Livio Jean-Charles was the biggest beneficiary and wound up with the MVP. Schroder controlled the spacing on the floor every time he was away from the ball, verbally and physically directing his teammates to where they needed to be. His defense was better than anything we have seen from a Jazz PG in a long time.

The one knock I can see on Schroder as being valid from that single game is his shooting stroke. He sure does have a funny release.

Other notes-

Jabari Parker is young Paul Pierce reincarnated. That kid is reeeaaaally good.

I was highly impressed with Rondae Hollis-Jefferson. His defense is outstanding.

Andrew Harrison will be able to do whatever he wants to do in the NBA. He has Dwayne Wade written all over his game.

Karasev was a non-factor. He just disappeared.

Julius Randle is a beast. He will be good.

[pickIBL]

Karasev was a non-factor. He just disappeared.

There were A LOT of prospects to be excited about in the game. Understand Karasev is a shooter. If he would have came out and burried his shots a bunch of people would be drooling over him calling him the next... whoever. And that wouldn't be right either.

To the Roddy to Dennis Comparison people...
I dislike NBA comparisions to begin with but being low on Dennis because you want to compare him to Roddy... I think that is some weak crap.

[reapaman]

To the Roddy to Dennis Comparison people...
I dislike NBA comparisions to begin with but being low on Dennis because you want to compare him to Roddy... I think that is some weak crap.

I don't want to compare him to roddy, he just popped into my mind when I first saw Dennis. Your never gonna find a perfect player comparison but its just about comparing their core attributes to find an estimate of what type of player and production you can expect when they get to the NBA. I mean if you wanna look at a more closer comparison, look at Darren Collison.

Matter a fact, look at DX's breakdown of Dennis then look at DX's breakdowns of collison including strengths/weaknesses, and tell me thats not almost the same guy? Look at him being excellent in the pick n roll, his good shooting percentages, ect ... to his slow and funny release and not being good at finishing, ect ... Very similar. Collison got alot of lottery talk during his junior year so these sudden rises happen quite often. You just gotta be careful when you analyze these guys because they can look good at doing things on one level but sometimes you miss important things they are not good at that will hurt their chances of being good in the NBA.

This is kinda like when Avatar first came out and I was excited to see it due to the massive praise for it plus it sounded cool. Well what I got was a movie I seen before and I didn't like, it was named pocahontas but except this time its with giant blue people.

[Joel Embust]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtrJ3kWJVz0[/youtube]

Full game for people who want to scout Schröder.

[Inigo Montoya]

With 6 assists, that's a 2:1 A/TO and much better than you are trying to make it seem.

making an A/TO ratio based on ONE (exhibition) game just feeds the fire. "he's a great passer, he had a 2:1 A/TO ratio". yeah, in one game. that doesn't really matter. sign me up, the jazz just found its PGOTF.

To the Roddy to Dennis Comparison people...
I dislike NBA comparisions to begin with but being low on Dennis because you want to compare him to Roddy... I think that is some weak crap.

he reminds me of roddy from a physical standpoint, i'm not comparing their game. they just look like they have similar size, speed, quickness, burst and overall similar athletic ability. so it has nothing to do with disliking either player. they both have nice physical tools.

[pickIBL]

think u also got the wrong guy

[Inigo Montoya]

why? i don't follow.

[KDBG]

why? i don't follow.

Haha, I think he's saying that he's not the one who posted the Jazzfanz post. That was me. Damn Inigo, you just put the wrong guy on blast. Poor pickIBL.

[Inigo Montoya]

oh, crap, it wasn't you. really sorry man, i meant someone else. i'll change that. SORRY!!!!