The Kanter Defense Hypocrisy

[BarneyGumble]

I am always hearing people on this board talk about how expendable Kanter is because he is such a liability on defense. Now I watch the games....and I dont really care to spend hours of my precious time pouring through mountains of stats, some of which could be meaningful and others of which are completely useless.

That being said what I've seen in the last few games is Favors and Gobert getting dominated by guys like Melo (season high), Anthony Davis (Career high), and even Andrew Bogut....all while Kanter logs few minutes as his ass warms the bench for those guys.

The Bulls game was more encouraging....but I just thought I'd point out the hypocrisy of blaming 22 year old Kanter for bad defense while other bigs on our team get lit up and seemingly get a pass.

[tleikheen]

add on Hibbert and Chandler,Im not down on Favors defense ,I just think Kanters and Favors need to be playing alot of minutes and wear down the other teams ....Its for sure Jazz smallball isn't going to win Jazz any games,but with 23 yr old Favors and 22 yr old Kanter becoming forces ,play them now ,when their 24 and 23 , teams are going to pay....... and get a defensive coach in to help Snyder

[Inigo Montoya]

You can add Gasol who got his way on Favors too (Kanter played good defense that game, not only by his standards). The problem isn't Favors, who is a good defender. The problem isn't Gobert, who doesn't play much. The problem is perimeter defense first and foremost. None of our bigs can make a real difference when the back court defense is breached with ease on a regular basis.

EDIT - btw, someone should name their band "The Kanter Defense Hypocrisy".

[Inigo Montoya]

[BarneyGumble]

I do agree; the perimeter defense is very suspect and makes life very hard on our bigs.

[StocktonShorts]

I think this debate has become almost hopelessly partisan, unfortunately.

But having said that, I think what may be happening to Kanter, from the perspective of the coaching staff (both the current one and the past one), is that he commits mistakes that are very noticeable -- he blows a rotation or loses his man or goes the wrong way on a pick. These noticeable mistakes hurt his standing in the eyes of the staff more than a player who is trying hard and doing the right things but being no more effective.

This is where I think coaching could really benefit from numbers-based analytics. If Player A is making mistakes (according to the staff's criteria), but his net effect on the game is positive, then you should probably leave him out there, but work on addressing those mistakes. On the other hand, Player B might be making few mistakes but having a net negative effect on the game.

And at some point, if your criteria for judging "mistakes" don't match up with the net positive/negative effect on the game, then you might want to reevaluate those criteria.

[Inigo Montoya]

But having said that, I think what may be happening to Kanter, from the perspective of the coaching staff (both the current one and the past one), is that he commits mistakes that are very noticeable -- he blows a rotation or loses his man or goes the wrong way on a pick. These noticeable mistakes hurt his standing in the eyes of the staff more than a player who is trying hard and doing the right things but being no more effective.

The problem with that (very reasonable) approach, is that in practice, the players are not being treated the same. Based on what you said, Trey should have been benched a long time ago, multiple times, while Kanter should have played more. Yet in practice, Trey gets ample PT while Kanter get tossed to the bench.

This is where I think coaching could really benefit from numbers-based analytics. If Player A is making mistakes (according to the staff's criteria), but his net effect on the game is positive, then you should probably leave him out there, but work on addressing those mistakes. On the other hand, Player B might be making few mistakes but having a net negative effect on the game.

According to this criteria, Kanter should play a lot more...

2nd best TS% (ignoring Clark and Novak)
3rd best eFG% (ignoring Clark and Novak)
3rd best reb%
3rd best dreb% (ignoring Hood)
3rd best oreb%
1st OffRtg
3rd best NetRtg
4th best PIE (ignoring Clark)
2nd best +\- (ignoring Novak)
Leads the team in scoring per 36: 19.9pts + 9.5rbs
Starting 5 shoots 50.9%, has a positive +\-. and a positive NetRtg.

Then look at some other players on the team who play a lot more than him. He's not being used the right way, or treated equally according to the standards you set.

[StocktonShorts]

But having said that, I think what may be happening to Kanter, from the perspective of the coaching staff (both the current one and the past one), is that he commits mistakes that are very noticeable -- he blows a rotation or loses his man or goes the wrong way on a pick. These noticeable mistakes hurt his standing in the eyes of the staff more than a player who is trying hard and doing the right things but being no more effective.

The problem with that (very reasonable) approach, is that in practice, the players are not being treated the same. Based on what you said, Trey should have been benched a long time ago, multiple times, while Kanter should have played more.

How can you say that when we don't know what the coaches' criteria are? I think it's more reasonable to assume that Kanter is doing something wrong in their eyes rather than that they're irrationally benching him because they hate him or something.

My point is that coaches are potentially focusing on very specific execution details more than you and I are, and they're judging players (rightly or wrongly) based on those details. They could be WAY off-base in what they're measuring, and their grading might be completely out of whack, but I suspect there's a method to it. It may be a poor method, but I refuse to believe it's irrational.

[StocktonShorts]

Then look at some other players on the team who play a lot more than him. He's not being used the right way, or treated equally according to the standards you set.

<sigh>

I'm not sure if you're missing the larger point I'm trying to make because I'm making it poorly or if you really just want to argue about Kanter so much you're ignoring it.

[Inigo Montoya]

Then look at some other players on the team who play a lot more than him. He's not being used the right way, or treated equally according to the standards you set.

<sigh>

I'm not sure if you're missing the larger point I'm trying to make because I'm making it poorly or if you really just want to argue about Kanter so much you're ignoring it.

I get what you're saying, I just think that chalking this all to coaching details that we'll never know about doesn't get us anywhere. It is just too amorphous and nebulous concept that can be used to explain anything. It doesn't mean that what you're saying is wrong, and I'm not saying the coaching staff is irrational but if we just go by that, discussions on this board will be very very short.

[BarneyGumble]

Jazz have a financial interest in keeping Kanter's production low. I also know to be a fact that the entire Jazz organization is in love with Rudy Gobert. So this makes things easy: play Kanter when you need to....sit him when its a blowout or when someone else gets in a rythm....regardless of if Kanter is in a rythm.

It keeps his production down and makes him cheaper to resign. We cant give all our players ridiculous max contracts. But my feeling is this strategy will backfire. Kanter thinks he's worth more than the Jazz are providing him with, and I believe another team will think that way too. He's getting paid either way. Are we prepared to lose a #3 overall selection that is an offensive rebounding monster and a scorer for nothing? Should have just resigned Millsap if that was our plan....

[Inigo Montoya]

How can you say that when we don't know what the coaches' criteria are? I think it's more reasonable to assume that Kanter is doing something wrong in their eyes rather than that they're irrationally benching him because they hate him or something.

No one says they hate him, I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I don't know what criteria the coaching staff is using, but you suggested that they could benefit from numbers-based analytics. Well, the numbers currently say Kanter is one of the bigger positives on this team, despite his mistakes.

I think the Jazz don't use him correctly, or enough. Not because they are irrational or because they hate him, just like I don't think they give Trey so much credit because they are in love with him. Teams aren't perfect, and we as fans debate over what we think they are doing wrong. That's all this is.

[StocktonShorts]

How can you say that when we don't know what the coaches' criteria are? I think it's more reasonable to assume that Kanter is doing something wrong in their eyes rather than that they're irrationally benching him because they hate him or something.

No one says they hate him, I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

"Hatred" was my placeholder for any irrational reason to not play him. I wasn't suggesting they hate him. It was meant to be ridiculous. I could have also said that they're intentionally putting him in bad situations to try to control his market value -- as that is almost as ridiculous and irrational.

I don't know what criteria the coaching staff is using, but you suggested that they could benefit from numbers-based analytics. Well, the numbers currently say Kanter is one of the bigger positives on this team, despite his mistakes.

Yes. That is why I brought it up. I'm attempting to explain why the coaching staff might be benching him DESPITE the numbers being in his favor.

[Inigo Montoya]

Yes. That is why I brought it up. I'm attempting to explain why the coaching staff might be benching him DESPITE the numbers being in his favor.

Then you think they might be wrong in doing that? We are in agreement then.

[StocktonShorts]

Yes. That is why I brought it up. I'm attempting to explain why the coaching staff might be benching him DESPITE the numbers being in his favor.

Then you think they might be wrong in doing that? We are in agreement then.

Yes, that's what I've been trying to say. And maybe the coaching staff is right in the long run, you know? That's a much harder thing to figure out.

It's a bit like pulling Hayward or Favors with 2-fouls in the first half. In each case you can argue it cost the Jazz a chance at a win this year, but maybe that lesson was important enough for their long term playing habits that it was worth it.

[erudite23]

I'm liking the Enes I've seen over the last 6 or 7 games. It is possible he could be turning a corner.

That said, if you watch him play defensively. If you actually watch him and with an eye toward a) trying to figure out what his responsibility is and b) gauging how well he's doing in executing that responsibility.....dear God almighty. It's horrifying at times. He will, literally, just go somewhere else in his brain and you cannot figure out why he's doing what he's doing. He will switch assignments with a teammate for no reason and the guy he switched with will hesitate, see what he's doing and then go with it and take Enes' original man, except after a couple beats Enes will just decide he's not supposed to be on the 2nd guy and suddenly drop off of him, leaving his teammate to look bad for "letting his guy go." And to top it all off, he won't go chase his original man down, he'll kind of just stand in no-man's land looking like an idiot while the ball rotates to the guy he just left for a wide open shot.

He get's confused on the pick and roll repeatedly. He won't show out to stop penetration, but he doesn't stay with his man, either. So, again, he's caught in the middle without guarding anyone or anything and the shot will result in a dunk or an a wide open bunny.

Just watch him, its horrific. It really is. I have never seen anyone on this team who is more consistently out of sorts on that end of the ball. It makes me wonder if he's doing it on purpose sometimes.

To top all of it off, he isn't that talented or effective even when he's on his assignment. He has short arms and he's a slow leaper, so he doesn't bother anyone's shot. That doesn't stop him from getting caught jumping when he shouldn't, mind you. He gives ground at times in the post when you would think that would be his one area of strength. He doesn't get his hand on balls or in the passing lanes. He's just....he doesn't really do anything well that I can think of.

If you're trying to build a defensive scheme, you start by getting everyone on the same page and that means establishing a set of rules and being able to trust that the players on the court will execute those rules. That is goal #1 and I think its clear that Kanter is not there yet.

[StocktonShorts]

He will switch assignments with a teammate for no reason and the guy he switched with will hesitate, see what he's doing and then go with it and take Enes' original man, except after a couple beats Enes will just decide he's not supposed to be on the 2nd guy and suddenly drop off of him, leaving his teammate to look bad for "letting his guy go." And to top it all off, he won't go chase his original man down, he'll kind of just stand in no-man's land looking like an idiot while the ball rotates to the guy he just left for a wide open shot.

This is the kind of stuff I see as well. It's not like other players aren't guilty of this stuff either, but I tend to see it more with Kanter. Maybe it's just confirmation bias. If Hayward and Kanter get mixed up on a pick and both go with the same guy, is that Kanter's fault or Hayward's? I'd probably assume Kanter's, but that may not be fair.

Whatever the case, playing good defense as a team takes a lot of practice and experience from all the players. And preferably you're getting that experience in a consistent system. The Jazz's coaching on defense has been anything but consistent over the past 3 seasons.

(I guess I should have filed this under the "Why does the defense still suck" thread)

[Winglish]

Take the time to read erudite's post ten times slowly. It's spot on. Enes Kanter is totally lost on the defensive end of the floor. The Jazz have some other poor defenders, but at least they attempt to stay with their man. Enes just wanders aimlessly and without purpose.

He's really pretty good offensively, outside of passing the ball. I think everyone gets that.

[BudTugly]

This is why I hate "advanced" stats.

I haven't been able to see the games this year, just getting radio feeds. So I won't comment on what Enes is doing now. But what's being said here is similar to what he's done over the course of his career to this point.

Enes never used to really give a crap about defense or doing any of the little things to help the team win. He loved points, rebounds and chicks at the club. Those things are all nice but not necessarily the best thing for the team.

Now, sometimes it is. Enes is a dude who, when his potential is fulfilled, you can just throw him the ball and he'll get you a bucket. That is something that can be extremely valuable. And boards are good no doubt. If the team is getting owned on the boards and Enes comes in to save the day, great. There will always come times when nobody can score within the offense. Give Lil' Al the ball. If he's on, he'll beat most individual defenders.

But not understanding even rudimentary fundamentals of team defense has been a hallmark of his and that along with some minor diva symptoms have been the root of what irritates me about this player. I also do not believe that Enes will ever fit in an offense that stresses ball movement any more than Al ever would, and at the same time I don't have faith that Kanter will ever reach the level Al is at as a pure scorer.

This roster wants complete players, flexible players. Enes is a specialist. Specialists come off the bench.

[stitches]

@erudite23, you said it better than I could have... I'm just going to add a gif of the play last night that is the perfect illustration for what you are talking about:




With him this happens every game, and sometimes several times a game... It's so frustrating to watch.