Who makes the cut for opening day?

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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#21 » by BarneyGumble » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:59 pm

Daddy 801 wrote:How can you say a guy who is soooo good at defense is a dime a dozen? I would take Millsap over any of the other guys everyone is debating about. The Jazz need an elite wing defender.


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Because for every great play he makes on D, he takes an ill advised shot or disrupts the offense in some way. He's a terrible offensive player. Shooting guards need to be able to shoot. There are 100 guys his size in the D-League that will play just as hard on defense to make an NBA roster. That's why he's a dime a dozen.

Having him on the team was a nice story because of the Millsap/Jazz legacy forged by Paul...but we shouldn't make personnel decisions going forward based on that.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#22 » by Daddy 801 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:06 pm

BarneyGumble wrote:
Daddy 801 wrote:How can you say a guy who is soooo good at defense is a dime a dozen? I would take Millsap over any of the other guys everyone is debating about. The Jazz need an elite wing defender.


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Because for every great play he makes on D, he takes an ill advised shot or disrupts the offense in some way. He's a terrible offensive player. Shooting guards need to be able to shoot. There are 100 guys his size in the D-League that will play just as hard on defense to make an NBA roster. That's why he's a dime a dozen.

Having him on the team was a nice story because of the Millsap/Jazz legacy forged by Paul...but we shouldn't make personnel decisions going forward based on that.


I don't think it's just him playing hard that equates to good defense. And I agree he struggles on offense. And my liking him has zero to do with his brother.

But, well just have to agree to disagree. I see his value on this team. I was amazed at his defense last year. He constantly got up on his man and disrupted the beginning of the possession. Without a defensive minded PG I think the Jazz keep him and throw him at the plethora of good PGs in the league. I would be really surprised if he didn't make the team and I think Dantes injury only increased his chances of making the team. Time we'll tell.



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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#23 » by BarneyGumble » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:20 pm

Daddy 801 wrote:
I don't think it's just him playing hard that equates to good defense. And I agree he struggles on offense. And my liking him has zero to do with his brother.

But, well just have to agree to disagree. I see his value on this team. I was amazed at his defense last year. He constantly got up on his man and disrupted the beginning of the possession. Without a defensive minded PG I think the Jazz keep him and throw him at the plethora of good PGs in the league. I would be really surprised if he didn't make the team and I think Dantes injury only increased his chances of making the team. Time we'll tell.



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I hear you and I agree that there were many times last season where his defense and hustle impressed me. I just think as an overall player he wont last too long in the NBA, but I hope I am wrong.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#24 » by BudTugly » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:21 am

BarneyGumble wrote:
Daddy 801 wrote:How can you say a guy who is soooo good at defense is a dime a dozen? I would take Millsap over any of the other guys everyone is debating about. The Jazz need an elite wing defender.


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Because for every great play he makes on D, he takes an ill advised shot or disrupts the offense in some way. He's a terrible offensive player. Shooting guards need to be able to shoot. There are 100 guys his size in the D-League that will play just as hard on defense to make an NBA roster. That's why he's a dime a dozen.

Having him on the team was a nice story because of the Millsap/Jazz legacy forged by Paul...but we shouldn't make personnel decisions going forward based on that.


It's been said before that this is the kind of guy who is more easily hidden on a strong system team. I don't know if the Jazz is that and probably not without a massive improvement in PG play but surely in Snyder's 2nd year we can expect crisper offense. Perhaps that will help him be less of an anchor on that side.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#25 » by KqWIN » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:54 am

Millsap's defense is so good you have to give it a chance to work. He does needs to change his offensive approach. Last year, he tried to make too many plays, a mistake that many D-League players commit when they get into the league. Instead, he needs to learn how to minimize his role in the offense and focus on not making mistakes. I expect him to be much better this year after a full summer and camp with the coaching staff.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#26 » by Stern Fixer » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:53 am

BarneyGumble wrote:Let Millsap go. Guys like him are a dime a dozen. Keep the bigs and see if any of the low cost guys pan out either for the Jazz or as trade bait.


Interesting position and I see that it has definitely livened up the discussion. So then I assume you'd go with Cotton, Cooley and Withey and then see who you could trade for another wing? Heaven knows I wish we could keep Cooley on the roster. He really impressed me in Summer Camp and DO we really know what Pleiss and Withey are going to be able to contribute? Too many bigs I know, but even Big Dog, Antoine Carr had some kind words for Mr Blue Collar, Jack Cooley in Summer League.

It does seem to me with all these wings invited to camp, notably, Johnson, Graham and O'Brien, that maybe Millsap's position is not as secure as we have been led to believe. I think it's possible that we were trying to lure his brother Paul back in free agency as well. I do agree that he plays an elite brand of defense and that he's still the frontrunner. It does seem as though nothing is really set in stone though and that everybody recently signed or on a non-guaranteed deal is going to be fighting for their NBA lives. Not sure that even Cotton or Withey is a shoe-in at this point to make the team.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#27 » by DelaneyRudd » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:43 am

We should see if there are any authentic Brazilian restaurants in Boise for Raul to enjoy.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#28 » by Stern Fixer » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:49 pm

I haven't really seen enough of Neto to know where he stands. Makes sense though if he still needs some development, maybe straighten out that outside shot - that kid Graham also had a sensational Summer League.

Is this the deepest pool of players we've ever put together for training camp? I think we'll have the deepest team we've ever fielded this year personally. I think about those Stock Malone teams that played Chicago for the title twice and even then we didn't have a whole lot of depth.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#29 » by Stern Fixer » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:16 am

Thanks to this article: http://www.slcdunk.com/2015/8/28/9223679/the-utah-jazzs-strategic-advantage-the-downbeat-1716 , I've come to the realization that we are eligible for the disabled player exception and can carry 16 players as opposed to 15. That is really fantastic news for this logjam we have of talented players. So, assuming we waive Grant Jarrett, I'll go with Bryce Cotton, Elijah Millsap, Jeff Withey and Jack Cooley for the win!!!
"But if you want to win, you have to teach a player how to win. That's why I don't believe in tanking, all that stuff. You don't learn how to win by losing on purpose to get a 19-year-old who you've never seen." -Rudy Gobert, 2017/18 Season
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#30 » by stitches » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:00 am

Stern Fixer wrote:Thanks to this article: http://www.slcdunk.com/2015/8/28/9223679/the-utah-jazzs-strategic-advantage-the-downbeat-1716 , I've come to the realization that we are eligible for the disabled player exception and can carry 16 players as opposed to 15. That is really fantastic news for this logjam we have of talented players. So, assuming we waive Grant Jarrett, I'll go with Bryce Cotton, Elijah Millsap, Jeff Withey and Jack Cooley for the win!!!

Except it's not true. It's an exception for cap considerations, not roster slots considerations and it's allowed only to teams that are over the cap, which Utah isn't.

It's for situations in which you are over the cap and can't sign anybody new. They allow you to sign a player with the exception, but they don't give you extra roster spot for it. If you want to sign the new player you have to waive somebody(if you are already at 15).
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#31 » by Stern Fixer » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:29 am

stitches wrote:
Stern Fixer wrote:Thanks to this article: http://www.slcdunk.com/2015/8/28/9223679/the-utah-jazzs-strategic-advantage-the-downbeat-1716 , I've come to the realization that we are eligible for the disabled player exception and can carry 16 players as opposed to 15. That is really fantastic news for this logjam we have of talented players. So, assuming we waive Grant Jarrett, I'll go with Bryce Cotton, Elijah Millsap, Jeff Withey and Jack Cooley for the win!!!

Except it's not true. It's an exception for cap considerations, not roster slots considerations and it's allowed only to teams that are over the cap, which Utah isn't.

It's for situations in which you are over the cap and can't sign anybody new. They allow you to sign a player with the exception, but they don't give you extra roster spot for it. If you want to sign the new player you have to waive somebody(if you are already at 15).


Well I'm not sure what to believe at this point. I mean you would assume that a writer for slcdunk.com would know what he was talking about on this one. I thoroughly enjoyed the article about Withey in any case. But if what you say is true, why would this explanation (http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/disabled-player-exception.aspx) include the stanza "for non-luxury tax paying teams" when talking about the maximum salary as a percentage of the injured player's salary?
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#32 » by stitches » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:05 pm

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

25. What are salary cap exceptions?

The basic rule of the NBA's salary cap is that a team can't sign a player or make a trade that leaves the team's team salary above the cap, unless the team is using an exception. In a system with a soft cap, exceptions are the mechanisms that allow teams to function while above the cap. Some exceptions are available only for making trades, and are described in detail starting in question number 82. The exceptions available for signing players are as follows1:

...

DISABLED PLAYER EXCEPTION -- This exception allows a team which is over the cap to replace a disabled player who will be out for the remainder of that season (it can also be granted in the event of a player's death). This exception is granted by the league, based on an application from the team and a determination by an NBA-designated physician that the player is substantially more likely than not to be unable to play through the following June 15.

If this exception is granted, the team can acquire one player via free agent signing, trade or waiver claim, to replace the disabled player:

The team may sign a free agent for one season only, for 50% of the disabled player's salary or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.
The team may trade for a player in the last season of his contract only (including any option years)4, who is making no more than 50% plus $100,000 of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception plus $100,000, whichever is less.
The team may claim a player on waivers who is in the last season of his contract only (including any option years), who is making no more than 50% of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.

Teams can apply for this exception from July 1 through January 15, and cannot apply after January 15. Once granted, the exception expires when a player is acquired, when the disabled player is traded or returns to the team, or on March 10 of that season, whichever comes first. This exception is granted on a season-by-season basis -- if the player will also be out the following season, the team needs to apply for this exception again the following season.

This exception can only be granted to the team for which the player was playing when his injury or illness was known, or reasonably should have become known. A team cannot trade for an injured player and subsequently apply for a Disabled Player exception for that player.

If a team's application for a disabled player exception is denied, the team must wait 90 days before submitting another request related to the same player, and then only for a new injury or aggravation of the same injury. Whether the application was approved or denied, the team can apply again (including for the same injury) the following season.

If the disabled player comes back sooner than expected he may be activated immediately, and the replacement player is not affected.

Don't confuse the Disabled Player exception with the salary cap relief teams sometimes receive after losing a player to a career-ending injury or death (see question number 63). The Disabled Player exception allows a team to acquire a replacement player. The salary cap relief removes a contract from the team's books.

Also see question number 26 for more information on the availability and use of this exception.


The key is that those exceptions are "mechanisms that allow teams to function while above the cap". They are entirely concerning the cap, not the number of players you can have on the roster. They are not designed to give you extra roster spots. Here's the part about roster spots:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q79

The only way to get extra spot due to injuries is if you have 4 injured/sick players for more than 3 games at the same time.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#33 » by KqWIN » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:27 pm

Stitches is right. The disabled player exception does not allow you to have 16 players, it allows you to sign a player while being over the cap.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#34 » by Stern Fixer » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:21 am

OK appreciate the clarification Stitches. I can't believe a writer for SLCDunk would be so sloppy in their interpretation of this and carelessly disseminate false information. Disappointing to say the least.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#35 » by laika » Wed Oct 7, 2015 8:47 pm

Based on the first two preseason games it looks like our roster is nearly set. The last spot is down to Cotton vs Cooley, with Cotton pretty likely.

I see these 13 players as definitely making the team-
C-Gobert, Pleiss
PF-Favors, Lyles, Booker
SF-Hayward, Ingles
SG-Hood, Burks, Millsap
PG-Exum, Burke, Neto

14.Withey-Should be a lock, barring a huge performance from someone else.
15.Cotton-You would think he would be a lock but hasn't played the first two games.

Cut-
16.Cooley-His only chance is if somehow the coaches have decided they really don't like Cotton and want a big lineup.
17.Chris Johnson-Would rather keep him than Ingles, but at this point is a big longshot to make the team.
Jerrett- Injuries at bad times.
O'Brien-No chance.
Graham-No chance.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#36 » by stitches » Wed Oct 7, 2015 10:02 pm

I'd take Chris Johnson over Cotton and Cooley.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#37 » by BudTugly » Thu Oct 8, 2015 3:59 am

laika wrote:Based on the first two preseason games it looks like our roster is nearly set. The last spot is down to Cotton vs Cooley, with Cotton pretty likely.

I see these 13 players as definitely making the team-
C-Gobert, Pleiss
PF-Favors, Lyles, Booker
SF-Hayward, Ingles
SG-Hood, Burks, Millsap
PG-Exum, Burke, Neto

14.Withey-Should be a lock, barring a huge performance from someone else.
15.Cotton-You would think he would be a lock but hasn't played the first two games.

Cut-
16.Cooley-His only chance is if somehow the coaches have decided they really don't like Cotton and want a big lineup.
17.Chris Johnson-Would rather keep him than Ingles, but at this point is a big longshot to make the team.
Jerrett- Injuries at bad times.
O'Brien-No chance.
Graham-No chance.


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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#38 » by Winglish » Thu Oct 8, 2015 4:43 am

BudTugly wrote:
laika wrote:Based on the first two preseason games it looks like our roster is nearly set. The last spot is down to Cotton vs Cooley, with Cotton pretty likely.

I see these 13 players as definitely making the team-
C-Gobert, Pleiss
PF-Favors, Lyles, Booker
SF-Hayward, Ingles
SG-Hood, Burks, Millsap
PG-Exum, Burke, Neto

14.Withey-Should be a lock, barring a huge performance from someone else.
15.Cotton-You would think he would be a lock but hasn't played the first two games.

Cut-
16.Cooley-His only chance is if somehow the coaches have decided they really don't like Cotton and want a big lineup.
17.Chris Johnson-Would rather keep him than Ingles, but at this point is a big longshot to make the team.
Jerrett- Injuries at bad times.
O'Brien-No chance.
Graham-No chance.


wut


stitches wrote:I'd take Chris Johnson over Cotton and Cooley.


Over Cotton and Cooley I can see. Over Jingles? No effing way!
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#39 » by KqWIN » Thu Oct 8, 2015 5:39 am

I thought Cotton's spot was fairly safe, but this triple wing lineup is putting it in jeopardy. Whithey has played very well and looks like a safe bet to make it, so it comes to Cotton, Johnson, or neither.
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Re: Who makes the cut for opening day? 

Post#40 » by StocktonShorts » Thu Oct 8, 2015 4:41 pm

stitches wrote:I'd take Chris Johnson over Cotton and Cooley.


Let's face it, all three of those guys are replacement-level players. But imagine you're on an Eastern road trip and a starter gets the flu.

If it's Favors or Gobert, you're covered (Booker, Lyles, Pleiß, Withey)
If it's Hayward or Burks, you're covered (Hood, Ingles, Millsap)
If it's Burke/Neto? You're going to wish you had Cotton on the roster and ready to suit up.
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