How much is too much for Joe Ingles?

[mudsak]

As with most of of here, I've been thinking a lot about the interesting off-season the Jazz have to deal with right now. Uncertainty of Haywards return, what to do with George Hill's situation, Mack/Withey expiring deals, and of course... Joe Ingles.

Ingles became our go-to SG down the stretch this season, and turned up pretty damn dependable for us in the playoffs. He had a solid season, and improved his game a lot. Such a great glue guy, and has a great all-around skill set. Shoots the 3 as good as anyone in the league, defends great, has great court vision, can initiate the offense, versatile ability to play multiple positions (switching) etc...

However, at some point we have to take a really long look at Ingles and his value to the team. How much can we pay him in our current situation? Is he really who we're going to move forward with as our starting SG next season? I'm a huge fan of Ingles, but I can't help but feel he's more of a GREAT bench guy, and maybe the reality is that he's a below average starter. We really need someone else on this team who can can score 20pts on a reliable basis. Joe Ingles isn't that guy, and George Hill isn't that guy either. If neither of these guys are that guy than I think we've found ourselves in a bit of a tough situation negotiating their new contracts. I'm really hoping we can keep Ingles for maybe $8mil, but I'm not so sure that's going to be the case.

What are your thoughts on our Ingles situation?... our SG situation?

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

I recently went team by team, player by player to see what the Jazz off-season options might be for trades and free-agent signings.

Honestly, in today's market, anything over 12 million is too much. Wouldn't shock me if someone offered him 14 million though, something similar to what DeMarre Carroll is rocking right now, but I feel like Carroll had more value at the time he signed that deal than Ingles does right now, so knock off a couple million each year and you get yourself to 12 million as the upper. Anything above that just becomes too much for what he brings, IMO. And honestly, anything about 10 or 11 is probably too much. There's guys out there that are available for a couple million per year less (like Wilson Chandler) who could come in and give you similar production (if not better). Few more guys for comparisons sake: Mo Harkless is roughly 10 million per year, Courtney Lee is at 12ish and Soloman Hill is at 12ish.

Ideally, I think the Jazz offer somewhere in the range of 8.5 to 10.5 and see where that gets them. 8.5 would be fantastic, but probably not realistic with the competing offers he'll receive.

And I do believe Ingles is VERY important to this team. His outside shooting and perimeter defense alone are very important, but his passing and off court intangibles are also extremely important to this team. If it's up to me, he's our future starting 2 guard as we move forward with this core unless we can get a big name guard to come and play here.

But honestly, it's really hard to say what Ingles will fetch on the open market. He's a classic case of someone that a team will overpay for, but I could also see him not getting offered as much as would be expected. Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Daddy 801]

Over 12 million seems like it might be a bad move.

[mglee]

Over 12 million seems like it might be a bad move.

Yea I would not over pay ingles. I see the situation very similar to wes Mathews and Carroll. Jazz still need to find that third wheel for a Big 3. To do that they'll probably have to move favors or burks. So realistically I don't see us keeping ingles .

We'll have hood still and maybe use one of our late firsts to get a back up SG. Or try to package both to move up a bit.


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[sipclip]

I don't think I would pay more than 8 or 9. Ingles is coming off a solid season but I think he has become a little overrated and his lack of scoring hurt us badly against the warriors.

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[Hoops Addict]

10

I am all for a 4 year $8M deal.

[Lava Rock Kid]

I think 18-20 mil will be his range.

He is one of the best shooters in the league,

He can pass the ball
He is a good teammate
He has size
He can defend.

The Aussie will be paid.

[Inigo Montoya]

We can't pay him without letting some other player with a similar salary go, if we want to stay under the luxury tax, I think.

[mglee]

I think 18-20 mil will be his range.

He is one of the best shooters in the league,

He can pass the ball
He is a good teammate
He has size
He can defend.

The Aussie will be paid.

+1 to all of the above. Resigning him and Hill put us in a tough spot though. We need to have cap space for another all star type player. Hayward and Gobert need a third wheel.

Ingles is going to get paiiiiiiddddd. I can see Houston throwing money at him too. He's fit perfectly.

Resigning Ingles and/or Hill would limit the teams ceiling. It'll hurt to lose ingles but I think it'll be the right choice. But if we can clear some space by moving burks or favors it may work


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[JazzyPhinz]

4/50 is the max I would do.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

I think 18-20 mil will be his range.

He is one of the best shooters in the league,

He can pass the ball
He is a good teammate
He has size
He can defend.

The Aussie will be paid.

18-20 million... per year?

If so, that's salary cap suicide, for any team.

If that's over 3 or 4 years, that's much more manageable.

[mudsak]

I recently went team by team, player by player to see what the Jazz off-season options might be for trades and free-agent signings.

Honestly, in today's market, anything over 12 million is too much. Wouldn't shock me if someone offered him 14 million though, something similar to what DeMarre Carroll is rocking right now, but I feel like Carroll had more value at the time he signed that deal than Ingles does right now, so knock off a couple million each year and you get yourself to 12 million as the upper. Anything above that just becomes too much for what he brings, IMO. And honestly, anything about 10 or 11 is probably too much. There's guys out there that are available for a couple million per year less (like Wilson Chandler) who could come in and give you similar production (if not better). Few more guys for comparisons sake: Mo Harkless is roughly 10 million per year, Courtney Lee is at 12ish and Soloman Hill is at 12ish.

Ideally, I think the Jazz offer somewhere in the range of 8.5 to 10.5 and see where that gets them. 8.5 would be fantastic, but probably not realistic with the competing offers he'll receive.

And I do believe Ingles is VERY important to this team. His outside shooting and perimeter defense alone are very important, but his passing and off court intangibles are also extremely important to this team. If it's up to me, he's our future starting 2 guard as we move forward with this core unless we can get a big name guard to come and play here.

But honestly, it's really hard to say what Ingles will fetch on the open market. He's a classic case of someone that a team will overpay for, but I could also see him not getting offered as much as would be expected. Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

I think you're about right on these numbers. I'm crossing my fingers that he lands somewhere in that 8-ish range. That would be great for us.

I'm not sure I agree with you 100% though on him being the starter. I think ideally he's our glue-guy mostly off the bench. I think we need someone a little more dynamic on the floor to take some of the pressure off of Hayward. Someone who can score, and get to the rim. I'd love to see Hood be that guy. Hood was originally projecting to be that guy, and injuries caused him to be wildly inconsistent this season. He just never had a chance to get into rhythm. I gotta think as a team we owe it to ourselves to give Hood a shot at getting healthy and earning that starting spot back.

[mudsak]

We can't pay him without letting some other player with a similar salary go, if we want to stay under the luxury tax, I think.

I have to think Burks, Diaw, Withey, and Mack are all likely to be gone next year.

[mudsak]

I don't think I would pay more than 8 or 9. Ingles is coming off a solid season but I think he has become a little overrated and his lack of scoring hurt us badly against the warriors.

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This is exactly why I started the thread. We're all really high on Ingles. Who doesn't love Ingles!? We all want to see Ingles back on this team next season.

But... we have to be realistic. One of the problems is that his particular skill set is one that is likely to get overpaid this offseason. Teams are tripping over themselves to fill their team with above average 3 point shooting. The league is living and dying by the 3 right now. The fact that Ingles can do that as good as anyone in the league PLUS does a great job in other areas might mean someone offers him too much.

On top of all this, you're exactly correct... His lack of offensive ability was/is a weakness for us. That is why I don't think he should be our go-to starter at SG. I'd say he's better mixed in for stints for 3 point shooting, and mainly as our bench SG. For this reason we have to be very careful about how much we pay him.

[mudsak]

I think 18-20 mil will be his range.

He is one of the best shooters in the league,

He can pass the ball
He is a good teammate
He has size
He can defend.

The Aussie will be paid.

haha! Really?! What team do you think is going to pay him $18-20? He does do all the things you mentioned, and you even left out the fact that he can SHOOT the 3 better than most NBA players, but I still don't see anyone throwing $18mil at him.

Where do you think he ranks on this current Jazz roster? He 4 player on this team... maybe not even top 5 or 6.

1. Gobert (debatable if Hayward/Gobert belongs at #1)
2. Hayward
3. Hill
4. Favors (when Favors returns fully healthy he'll be #3 above Hill)
5. ????? Who's the #5? Iso Joe?... Hood? Ingles?... They all have a place in the debate. Give it another season, and Exum is probably in this discussion as well.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

I'm not sure I agree with you 100% though on him being the starter. I think ideally he's our glue-guy mostly off the bench. I think we need someone a little more dynamic on the floor to take some of the pressure off of Hayward. Someone who can score, and get to the rim. I'd love to see Hood be that guy. Hood was originally projecting to be that guy, and injuries caused him to be wildly inconsistent this season. He just never had a chance to get into rhythm. I gotta think as a team we owe it to ourselves to give Hood a shot at getting healthy and earning that starting spot back.

Statistically speaking, Ingles with the starting group has been fantastic. He can take the best player of the opposing team on defense, leaving Hayward to focus more on performing on offense. He gives outside shooting and ball movement to our offense when Rudy is on the floor, and he has great chemistry with Hayward. He as our starter is a really good, natural fit.

[mudsak]

I'm not sure I agree with you 100% though on him being the starter. I think ideally he's our glue-guy mostly off the bench. I think we need someone a little more dynamic on the floor to take some of the pressure off of Hayward. Someone who can score, and get to the rim. I'd love to see Hood be that guy. Hood was originally projecting to be that guy, and injuries caused him to be wildly inconsistent this season. He just never had a chance to get into rhythm. I gotta think as a team we owe it to ourselves to give Hood a shot at getting healthy and earning that starting spot back.

Statistically speaking, Ingles with the starting group has been fantastic. He can take the best player of the opposing team on defense, leaving Hayward to focus more on performing on offense. He gives outside shooting and ball movement to our offense when Rudy is on the floor, and he has great chemistry with Hayward. He as our starter is a really good, natural fit.

I know he's been great. I'm not sure about being able to put him on the opposing teams best player (Durant? ,Lebron?) but I know Ingles has been great. I just think this Jazz team will find it very difficult to improve on what they accomplished last year if they commit to Ingles being a full time starter. He's great in many aspects, I just don't think he's a starter that's going to help push this team forward. This is very likely his ceiling...it's a great ceiling, but I have to think Hood still has the possibility to make a jump if he can stay healthy, and be given a chance to earn his spot back. Maybe I'm wrong... maybe Hood amounts to nothing more than a CJ Miles type of player. It just seems clear that this Jazz team needs another scorer on the team to have a real chance at improving...especially in the playoffs.

I have to think the Jazz needs to be thinking about how they can make the next step to maybe... #2, or #3 seed next season. I'm not sure Ingles as a full time starter gets us there. I think if we can have his skills coming off the bench, and a more potent player starting we're a better team.

[pickIBL]

He's worth about the non tax payer mle. This 12, 16, 18 crap is not a good idea at all.

[BarneyGumble]

Lets just have him and Alec Burks swap salaries.

[stitches]

He's worth about the non tax payer mle. This 12, 16, 18 crap is not a good idea at all.

Unfortunately I have to agree... I was going to say "I'm probably going to be alone" in not thinking anything over MLE is good, but you beat me to it.