The Official 2023-2024 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread

[cedric76]

What happened to ochai?
Last year he was like one of the untradable player and now he doesn't play much for you guys?

[Inigo Montoya]

What happened to ochai?
Last year he was like one of the untradable player and now he doesn't play much for you guys?

He was always tradable. This season our coach is using a very wide rotation and only one player is playing more than 30 minutes per game (Markkanen). As a results, a lot of players get to play but they play less minutes, and that's across the board. So far it's working so no one is complaining. Agbaji is playing the exact amount of minutes per game as last season (20.4 vs 20.5 MPG), and that's in the ballpark of pretty much any other player on the team other than Markkanen. He's even playing more than Dunn, who is a starter (17.4 MPG).

Agbaji's defense has been very good but he needs to improve his offense and make more shots when he's open. If he does, he'll probably get more minutes.

[Crunch 99]

Maybe I need an account with nba.com to create a link, or maybe I’m just a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), but I can’t figure out how to get a clean image of the below:

Spoiler:

LINEUPS GP W L MIN OFFRTG DEFRTG NETRTG AST% AST/TO AST RATIO OREB% DREB% REB% TOV% EFG% TS% PACE PIE
K. Dunn - L. Markkanen - J. Collins - C. Sexton - S. Fontecchio 9 8 1 106 127.0 121.6 5.5 74.3 3.00 23.8 26.3 77.7 52.5 11.6 61.4 64.9 105.30 53.9
K. Olynyk - J. Clarkson - O. Agbaji - W. Kessler - K. George 9 8 1 60 117.3 107.8 9.6 66.1 1.95 20.6 34.5 63.8 51.9 15.0 58.3 61.0 101.78 56.6
J. Clarkson - L. Markkanen - W. Kessler - S. Fontecchio - K. George 10 8 2 48 114.7 93.1 21.6 56.8 1.25 16.4 44.6 83.0 63.3 19.6 52.0 55.5 102.10 58.3
K. Olynyk - J. Clarkson - J. Collins - O. Agbaji - K. George 7 6 1 45 96.9 105.3 -8.4 66.7 1.69 16.1 39.6 78.4 58.7 13.5 44.6 49.6 100.37 49.5
K. Dunn - L. Markkanen - C. Sexton - W. Kessler - S. Fontecchio 8 6 2 33 129.3 103.9 25.4 61.1 3.14 20.0 35.9 79.4 56.2 9.3 57.6 60.7 108.64 57.9

The search is for the last 17 games (I believe since Sexton and Dunn have been starting since Dec 14th) for 5 man lineups playing at least 30 mins together. Advanced stats to show net rating.

John Collins starting at center with Kessler on the bench seems to be the reason pointed out by many for the recent success. Collins in the starting 5 is a respectable plus 5.5. However, when Kessler plays with same players the net rating jumps to over plus 25! Lineups with Collins have the lowest net rating.

I think that this is what McMurphy might have been referring to above but with 3 man lineups and a different time frame.

Question is, are we propping Collins up for a trade? If not, why do recent games with Collins as starting center seem to be a great result, but the stats don’t bear that out?

I can't read your lineup numbers as posted, but I look at various lineups at NBA.com periodically. I don't recall anyone arguing that starting Collins over Kessler is the reason for the Jazz success. Over the course of the season, it is easy to find negative plus minuses, negative net ratings and lineups for Collins, and conversely, very positive ones for Kessler, but starting Collins at center isn't sabotaging the team. We are winning.

The Jazz could be showcasing Collins for a trade; I don't know, but I wouldn't say the Jazz are propping up a bad player either. I think the Jazz are developing Collins - trying to play Collins in a role where he can fit in and succeed. I think he is gradually improving in this starting center role. For the last five games, Collins is a plus 10.2 ppg, while averaging 13.4 ppg on very impressive 69 TS%, 44.4 3p%, along with 7 rebs and 1.4 tovs. Collins has a respectable DEFRTG and a very good NETRTG for those last five games as well, at +21.3 NETRTG. And he's been an excellent floor spreader on offense.

Many games our big positive plus minus has come from the bench while the starters more or less hold their own, but lately there has been some games where the starters have managed a nice positive plus minus. Finally, positive plus minus counts the same whether it comes from the starters, bench or both.

[SoCalJazzFan]

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?DateFrom=12/20/2023&DateTo=01/17/2024&TeamID=1610612762&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

This is the link, I can't figure out how to get a link into an image that I want, sorry.

The gist of my message is that while the Jazz have been a buzzsaw the past 3-4 weeks with Collins the starting center (along with Dunn, Sexton, Markk and Tech), when you look at the same lineup but with Kessler, the offensive rating is still high, the defensive rating much better and the netrtg very good. It begs the question as to whether the starting lineup is the best lineup.

Since 12/20/23:
With Collins- 123 mins, OffRtg 129.3, DefRtg 120.1, NetRtg 9.2
Same starters with Kessler- 33 mins, OffRtg 127.6, DefRtg 103.9, NetRtg 23.7

There is certainly a minutes disparity, but if 4/5s of the starting lineup is playing, you would think it would be against the opposing team's starters. Apparently, Sexton still has enough spacing to run the offense as the OffRtg is still very high.

I'm not complaining about John Collins, the team is doing fantastic with him in this role, I just found this interesting/surprising.

[vryadli]

There 2 consecutive things what I want occur/not in NBA world. So I call on Santa Claus with those after-NewYear wishes:

1. Please, please, please, no trade of any rotation player till the end of the season.
2. It is quite possible that Jazz is not quite ready to beat Minny in 7, mostly because unbelievable developing of Edwards character. But it would be very entertaining Cinderela-style WCF, right? Santa? Do you like fairy tales?

[Crunch 99]

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?DateFrom=12/20/2023&DateTo=01/17/2024&TeamID=1610612762&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

This is the link, I can't figure out how to get a link into an image that I want, sorry.

The gist of my message is that while the Jazz have been a buzzsaw the past 3-4 weeks with Collins the starting center (along with Dunn, Sexton, Markk and Tech), when you look at the same lineup but with Kessler, the offensive rating is still high, the defensive rating much better and the netrtg very good. It begs the question as to whether the starting lineup is the best lineup.

Since 12/20/23:
With Collins- 123 mins, OffRtg 129.3, DefRtg 120.1, NetRtg 9.2
Same starters with Kessler- 33 mins, OffRtg 127.6, DefRtg 103.9, NetRtg 23.7

There is certainly a minutes disparity, but if 4/5s of the starting lineup is playing, you would think it would be against the opposing team's starters. Apparently, Sexton still has enough spacing to run the offense as the OffRtg is still very high.

I'm not complaining about John Collins, the team is doing fantastic with him in this role, I just found this interesting/surprising.

Yes, I posted earlier in this thread that I favored a Kessler, Markkanen and Font starting front line, but Hardy has found combinations of starters and bench players that are very competitive and rack up wins, so I can't complain. Go Jazz!

[Inigo Montoya]

Don't know if it makes sense, but the lineup with Collins is probably playing against starters (because it's starting the game) and therefore better competition, so it would not surprise me to see that the NetRtg is smaller. And since Kessler is a great defender and also plays against weaker competition as he's coming off the bench (there is probably some overlap between Kessler's lineup and playing against bench units because Hardy sometimes subs players gradually), it would make sense his DefRtg would be much better, while the OffRtg can remain similar since he's playing with the same 4 players Collins does, which would explain the large difference in both DefRtg and NetRtg. But we also need to keep in mind there is a very large disparity in minutes between the two lineups (90 minutes difference).

[Inigo Montoya]

An interview with Coach Hardy.

Watch on YouTube

[vryadli]

Yes, I posted earlier in this thread that I favored a Kessler, Markkanen and Font starting front line, but Hardy has found combinations of starters and bench players that are very competitive and rack up wins, so I can't complain. Go Jazz!

1. Quite possible that starters with Kessler will be better, but also quite possible the weaker and net of the swap will be negative.

2. As for PT. Collins looks considerably more fit, and Kessler game is very energy consuming. He may be does more maximum vertical jumps per a minute that anyone of his size. Even more than Rudy and much more than Jokic, I'd say. So may be he just can't play considerably more minutes with the same defense efficiency.

[bisme37]

Hey guys. I have come to share this Jazz info from the email NBA.com sends me in the morning. Congrats on the team's great play lately.

...

The Jazz are 15-4 in their last 19 games dating back to Dec. 13. That is tied with the Celtics for the best record in the NBA over the past 36 days.

The Jazz went from ranked 26th in both offensive and defensive rating through their first 23 games to 7th and 11th, respectively, over their past 19 games.






The Jazz are averaging 12.1 more points per game during this 19-game run. So where are those points coming from?

Lauri Markkanen: While his average only increased by 0.5 ppg, his availability is the key difference. He missed eight games early in the season (hamstring) and this 15-4 run began with his first game back against New York

Collin Sexton: The starting point guard has increased his scoring by more than nine points per game, while playing six more minutes per game. Both Sexton and Markkanen are shooting 50/40/90 during this 19-game run

Talen Horton-Tucker: Nearly a six-point bump in his scoring average and a seven point increase in his shooting percentage

Overall Balance: The Jazz had seven players averaging over eight points per game early in the season. Now they have nine all at 8.4 or higher

[Inigo Montoya]

The main thing that really jumps at you is the increase in Sexton's numbers. THT hasn't been playing and is currently out of the rotation so his numbers are deceiving in this context and are essentially noise.

The other thing is maybe Clarkson's points and he has been much better than in the start of the season, when he shot terribly and was one of the most inefficient players in the league.

[bkohler]

A lot has been made about not having Collins and Kessler be on the court at the same time being a big part of the turn around but looking at numbers today I really wonder how much of it is moving Lauri back to PF more often. Looking at cleaning the glass numbers Lauri is a +7.8 as a PF and a -6 as a SF. Now obviously that has to do with who else is out there with him but lineups with him at SF have under preformed and the ones with him at PF have been great (with the exception of the ones with THT at PG).

Which makes me wonder if it should influence our team building long term? How does this change or fit with Hendricks as the PFotF? Does this mean you need Hendricks to play SF? Do we need to grab another SF eventually?

[SoCalJazzFan]

A lot has been made about not having Collins and Kessler be on the court at the same time being a big part of the turn around but looking at numbers today I really wonder how much of it is moving Lauri back to PF more often. Looking at cleaning the glass numbers Lauri is a +7.8 as a PF and a -6 as a SF. Now obviously that has to do with who else is out there with him but lineups with him at SF have under preformed and the ones with him at PF have been great (with the exception of the ones with THT at PG).

Which makes me wonder if it should influence our team building long term? How does this change or fit with Hendricks as the PFotF? Does this mean you need Hendricks to play SF? Do we need to grab another SF eventually?

The defense that both Dunn and Fontecchio bring is huge. I was very wrong about Tech this offseason. The lineup dictates that Markk play PF, but I'm not sure it is the reason for the success as much as who else is on the floor with him.

[Inigo Montoya]

I always said I think Markkanen is a PF. Hendricks can play SF due to his shooting, and on offense they can be interchangeable, so it's not a huge deal. But I do think that the Jazz needs a 'natural' SF, which I don't think Hendricks is. I've said it for a long time now, and the Jazz do look better with Fontecchio, who is a natural SF.

[bkohler]

A lot has been made about not having Collins and Kessler be on the court at the same time being a big part of the turn around but looking at numbers today I really wonder how much of it is moving Lauri back to PF more often. Looking at cleaning the glass numbers Lauri is a +7.8 as a PF and a -6 as a SF. Now obviously that has to do with who else is out there with him but lineups with him at SF have under preformed and the ones with him at PF have been great (with the exception of the ones with THT at PG).

Which makes me wonder if it should influence our team building long term? How does this change or fit with Hendricks as the PFotF? Does this mean you need Hendricks to play SF? Do we need to grab another SF eventually?

The defense that both Dunn and Fontecchio bring is huge. I was very wrong about Tech this offseason. The lineup dictates that Markk play PF, but I'm not sure it is the reason for the success as much as who else is on the floor with him.

I thought much the same that it was Dunn/Fontecchio but it’s almost every line up (besides the ones with THT at point) that have the stark contrast. One of the few that is positive with Lauri at SF actually is with Hendricks at the 4.

Theres also a few other interesting things:
- It’s really clear from this data that Collins is not a winning player. Almost every lineup with him in it is negative
- Fontecchio looks better than Abagai in these statistics but they both look worlds better than anyone else at SF
- Hendricks looks fantastic in these numbers. His possessions are limited but all of the lineups which feature him and have had over 10 possessions (with the exceptions of one) are incredibly positive. Like +50. The second most used lineup with him has us scoring 145 pts and giving up 78 pts per 100 possessions.
- Play Kessler with anyone but Collins and he’s super man. Play with Collins and he’s Clark Kent.
- If you play Keyonte without Kessler and Lauri it’s a disaster. Like a John Collins sized disaster.

[Crunch 99]

The Jazz' last two games of the season are @Lakers and @Warriors. If we are still in a battle with those teams to get to the play-in, it will be very challenging to get those last two road wins imo. The NBA wants to market the beginning of the play-in/playoffs with Steph and Lebron's photos. Steph Curry has been the NBA's biggest draw for the last 8 years running. I don't think there will be a spoken conspiracy to keep the Jazz out, but the Jazz likely won't get their fair share of 50/50 calls.

I hope the Jazz get a lead on these teams before the last two games.

The Warriors and Lakers are the NBA's and broadcast media's top two choices for marketing purposes. The Warriors are on national TV a league-leading 41 times and the Lakers are on national TV 40 times. The Jazz are on just 9 times.
https://uproxx.com/dimemag/how-many-national-tv-games-each-nba-team-play-2023-2024-season/

[D Rog]

I just realized that the Jazz' last two games of the season are @Lakers and @Warriors. If when we get there, we are still in a battle with these teams to get in the play-in, it will be very tough to get the wins imo. Besides being tough for the usual reason of games on the road, they will be tough games because the NBA wants to market the beginning of the play-in/playoffs with Steph and Lebron's photos. Steph Curry has been the NBA's biggest draw for the last 8 years running. The refs know this. I don't think there will be an actual conspiracy to keep the Jazz out, but the Jazz likely won't get their fair share of the 50/50 calls imo.

I hope the Jazz can get a lead on these teams before the last two games.

Just like last season, the Warriors and Lakers are the NBA's and broadcast media's top two choices for marketing purposes this season. The Warriors are on national TV a league-leading 41 times and the Lakers are on national TV the second most times at 40 times. The Jazz are on just 9 times.
https://uproxx.com/dimemag/how-many-national-tv-games-each-nba-team-play-2023-2024-season/

You aren't suggesting the NBA is rigged are you? The NBA and it's TV Broadcast partners LOVE small market teams.

My prediction - Lakers will win at least 3 more titles before the Jazz get to their next WCF

[red4hf]

Read on Twitter

[Inigo Montoya]

I doubt anything will come out of the pursuit of Bridges but it's good to see the Jazz are trying to make significant improvements and big moves.

[vryadli]

OK, after last couple week I don't object to trade anymore. Team shows that it CAN play for a month and then proved that it WILL NOT play.

Though from what I saw alt least 70% of that proof came from Keyonte and he hardly will be traded any time soon.