All Things Thunder Offseason Thread

[Devilanche]

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The gap between #1 & #2 is about the same as #2 and #10.

[Kizz Fastfists]

I think presti isn’t excited because there isn’t any way to get value out of micic. Micic is older and unproven. His value is likely a second rounder and we have a billion second rounders and 700 guards. Micic at 6-8 million could have been a boon if we’d balanced the roster by drafting a big and traded Dort for a big.

Presti had the opportunity to go from fringe playoff team to top 4 in the West and blew it in typical Presti fashion. He had the assets and the cap space to add young talent that would have balanced the roster and drastically boosted the talent level and instead he gave Dallas cap relief so they could take the player they wanted and OKC needed and OKC takes another PG when they had Micic as an option to bring over to go with their glut of 1-3 and no quality center on the roster. I guess Presti doesn't think SGA is ready to lead a contender so he is intentionally avoiding putting the pieces together that would put that pressure on him. The only other option is that Presti is incompetent. Long time posters here know how I feel about Presti and his ability to build a roster and accurately understand the limitations and ceiling of his poorly constructed rosters.

[Xatticus]

Doubt a team is willing to give up significant value for a guy that never played in the NBA before and who's almost 30 years old (even if he's very good).

Just hope he might be added in a package for something good but we are not getting more than a couple of 2nds value wise for him.

Yeap I’m with you on micic value .
For all his accolades he’s still not nba proven and he’s already very close to 30.

If we can get a single second I would move along . Multiple seconds I consider it a huge win.
If we scrape a protected first, I would be ecstatic.

I am not trading his rights for a second-round pick. I want legitimate value. He is battle tested in Europe and in his prime. He can score from anywhere on the floor. He can help a team right now. I can appreciate that it seems that he isn't interested in playing for OKC and that something appears to be better than nothing, but a second-round pick is essentially nothing and I am not going to help a competitor improve their team. Are we not trying to compete? Why would we strengthen a potential obstacle to our success without getting something in return? If someone actually wants Micic, then they should be willing to part with something we value. If nobody can come up with a solution to get Micic on an NBA roster that doesn't involve us simply giving away his rights, then Micic can go back to Europe.

[Devilanche]

Doubt a team is willing to give up significant value for a guy that never played in the NBA before and who's almost 30 years old (even if he's very good).

Just hope he might be added in a package for something good but we are not getting more than a couple of 2nds value wise for him.

Yeap I’m with you on micic value .
For all his accolades he’s still not nba proven and he’s already very close to 30.

If we can get a single second I would move along . Multiple seconds I consider it a huge win.
If we scrape a protected first, I would be ecstatic.

I am not trading his rights for a second-round pick. I want legitimate value. He is battle tested in Europe and in his prime. He can score from anywhere on the floor. He can help a team right now. I can appreciate that it seems that he isn't interested in playing for OKC and that something appears to be better than nothing, but a second-round pick is essentially nothing and I am not going to help a competitor improve their team. Are we not trying to compete? Why would we strengthen a potential obstacle to our success without getting something in return? If someone actually wants Micic, then they should be willing to part with something we value. If nobody can come up with a solution to get Micic on an NBA roster that doesn't involve us simply giving away his rights, then Micic can go back to Europe.

We are trying to compete but based on what he wants

- contender
- 25-30 mins (starter level of minutes)
- 5-7m in terms of yearly salary.


Once you have his demands in the list of potential fits just get narrowed down even more. He’s proven in Europe and some of that production would translate over but exactly which would be a guessing game. On the top end he’s probably spot starter at guard somewhere and the lower end he might not make a team top 9 rotation (fair expectation for someone paid around 6million I guess)

It’s probably a discounted price or we can always wait until we are contender and he want to come to us .

Now that value could be anywhere from a high second , multiple seconds to best case scenario a lotto protected first.

[Dadouv47]

well Presti didn't want Collins.

[jake_swivel]

well Presti didn't want Collins.

I’m a little annoyed with Sam’s handling of the last couple weeks.

[Dadouv47]

well Presti didn't want Collins.

I’m a little annoyed with Sam’s handling of the last couple weeks.

seems like nobody wanted Collins tbh but I think he was worth taking the risk.

Utah might be trying to rebuild a bit too fast and we are too slow.

[kdthunderup]

Not that high on Collins plus don’t think he fits in to the style we’re trying to build. Makes sense Presti doesn’t want to move for him.

[Devilanche]

well Presti didn't want Collins.

I’m a little annoyed with Sam’s handling of the last couple weeks.

Specifically?

Picking up another guard ?
Trading up by absorbing contract thereby forgoing free agency ?
Not trading for Collins instead ?

[Dn4sty]

I think presti isn’t excited because there isn’t any way to get value out of micic. Micic is older and unproven. His value is likely a second rounder and we have a billion second rounders and 700 guards. Micic at 6-8 million could have been a boon if we’d balanced the roster by drafting a big and traded Dort for a big.

Presti had the opportunity to go from fringe playoff team to top 4 in the West and blew it in typical Presti fashion. He had the assets and the cap space to add young talent that would have balanced the roster and drastically boosted the talent level and instead he gave Dallas cap relief so they could take the player they wanted and OKC needed and OKC takes another PG when they had Micic as an option to bring over to go with their glut of 1-3 and no quality center on the roster. I guess Presti doesn't think SGA is ready to lead a contender so he is intentionally avoiding putting the pieces together that would put that pressure on him. The only other option is that Presti is incompetent. Long time posters here know how I feel about Presti and his ability to build a roster and accurately understand the limitations and ceiling of his poorly constructed rosters.

Bertans can still be traded again once he is acquired via cap space. He can even be aggregated with other player salaries on the Thunder roster, but by all means dust off your pitchfork.

[Kizz Fastfists]

I think presti isn’t excited because there isn’t any way to get value out of micic. Micic is older and unproven. His value is likely a second rounder and we have a billion second rounders and 700 guards. Micic at 6-8 million could have been a boon if we’d balanced the roster by drafting a big and traded Dort for a big.

Presti had the opportunity to go from fringe playoff team to top 4 in the West and blew it in typical Presti fashion. He had the assets and the cap space to add young talent that would have balanced the roster and drastically boosted the talent level and instead he gave Dallas cap relief so they could take the player they wanted and OKC needed and OKC takes another PG when they had Micic as an option to bring over to go with their glut of 1-3 and no quality center on the roster. I guess Presti doesn't think SGA is ready to lead a contender so he is intentionally avoiding putting the pieces together that would put that pressure on him. The only other option is that Presti is incompetent. Long time posters here know how I feel about Presti and his ability to build a roster and accurately understand the limitations and ceiling of his poorly constructed rosters.

Bertans can still be traded again once he is acquired via cap space. He can even be aggregated with other player salaries on the Thunder roster, but by all means dust off your pitchfork.

Beterans is going to make $22M to rot on the bench, $17M this year and $5M cap hit next year. No team is going to take him without significant compensation for wasting the cap space and roster spot. If you play him 62 games you turn next season from a $5M hit on an empty roster spot into $16M for a worthless player. If you are happy with Presti putting profits ahead of wins then be happy with it. OKC is in the worst spot you can be in. Fringe playoff team. As a GM in that situation you either have the balls to go for it or to go full rebuild. This is a young team that had an abundance of cap space so going for it was the correct answer.

Unlike when kd left and Presti kept the team as a first round playoff exit long after he should have started a rebuild. For the record, the rebuild should have started the day kd signed with GS. Yes, you can go back and see that I upset a lot of people telling them that Presti was never going to get that team out of the first round. Presti will be happy having a team that gets one round of playoff money forever. For some reason a lot of people that call themselves fans are content with that and have no desire to hold Presti to the standard of winning a championship which is the standard every GM should be held to.

[Dn4sty]

Presti had the opportunity to go from fringe playoff team to top 4 in the West and blew it in typical Presti fashion. He had the assets and the cap space to add young talent that would have balanced the roster and drastically boosted the talent level and instead he gave Dallas cap relief so they could take the player they wanted and OKC needed and OKC takes another PG when they had Micic as an option to bring over to go with their glut of 1-3 and no quality center on the roster. I guess Presti doesn't think SGA is ready to lead a contender so he is intentionally avoiding putting the pieces together that would put that pressure on him. The only other option is that Presti is incompetent. Long time posters here know how I feel about Presti and his ability to build a roster and accurately understand the limitations and ceiling of his poorly constructed rosters.

Bertans can still be traded again once he is acquired via cap space. He can even be aggregated with other player salaries on the Thunder roster, but by all means dust off your pitchfork.

Beterans is going to make $22M to rot on the bench, $17M this year and $5M cap hit next year. No team is going to take him without significant compensation for wasting the cap space and roster spot. If you play him 62 games you turn next season from a $5M hit on an empty roster spot into $16M for a worthless player. If you are happy with Presti putting profits ahead of wins then be happy with it. OKC is in the worst spot you can be in. Fringe playoff team. As a GM in that situation you either have the balls to go for it or to go full rebuild. This is a young team that had an abundance of cap space so going for it was the correct answer.

Unlike when kd left and Presti kept the team as a first round playoff exit long after he should have started a rebuild. For the record, the rebuild should have started the day kd signed with GS. Yes, you can go back and see that I upset a lot of people telling them that Presti was never going to get that team out of the first round. Presti will be happy having a team that gets one round of playoff money forever. For some reason a lot of people that call themselves fans are content with that and have no desire to hold Presti to the standard of winning a championship which is the standard every GM should be held to.

I’ve been around long enough to know the following

1) You liked the Melo trade and Presti going for it, before backtracking and claiming you didn’t. You didn’t upset me with your “never going to get out of the first round” stuff. The frustration comes when your responses don’t allow for any consideration of another viewpoint and condescending remarks to those who push back against you. For example, you say “that I’m happy putting profits over wins.” In what world is that true? I would welcome a conversation with you that doesn’t devolve into stuff like that. it doesn’t do anyone any good.

2) You have a penchant for over exaggerating your position. For example, you claim OKC is in “the worst spot you can be in.” Right now off the top of my head here are teams in a much worse spot.

New Orleans
Portland
Indianapolis
Charlotte
Houston
Minnesota
Detroit
Atlanta
Chicago
Dallas

These are the teams that one could argue either way (better or worse than Thunder) and my thoughts

Jazz - worse
Raptors - worse

I’m sure we could quibble over a few others (I’d argue Wizards as well).

You also claim that OKC could/should use their cap space without knowing for one second whether a player would actually choose OKC over other situations. FA hasn’t been exactly a great pathway for this team and everyone knows that (albeit they haven’t had many years with significant space).

None of us know what free agents, trades, etc… are in play here. We all speculate and have great insight, and you have some of the best. I just wish the other stuff didn’t do frequently get mixed in.

[jake_swivel]

I’m a little annoyed with Sam’s handling of the last couple weeks.

Specifically?

Picking up another guard ?
Trading up by absorbing contract thereby forgoing free agency ?
Not trading for Collins instead ?

It’s less the specific moves and more the general roster construction. I have zero belief in any “big” not named Chet. I’d rather not spend an entire season rolling out Kendrick and JDub at PF. And sometimes center. Poku keeps breaking rather important bones and Dieng won’t be ready. It’s not that John Collins is great. But you need a big of some sort. And it seems like presti’s committed to going small ball with a 190 pound, largely unproven, 20 year old, 7 footer with foot problems being the only real big other than Jwill. Clearly he’s wanting an unconventional roster and I’m down with that. But you need Chet insurance.

The off-season isn’t over. Free agency hasn’t even started. But it feels like he’s locked himself in this spot with only about $10 million to spend and a ton of contracts already on the books.

[QPR]

Collins is awful and on an awful contract. People are losing their minds over that trade just because Ainge made it.

[jake_swivel]

Collins is awful and on an awful contract. People are losing their minds over that trade just because Ainge made it.

Collins would have averaged 15 and 8 on this team with about .60% effective field goal percentage. He’s been an effective 3 point shooter every year except last year when he had an injured finger on his shooting hand. You could flip that production in a year and a half easy while putting an even more productive team on the court.

[The Servant]

I think presti isn’t excited because there isn’t any way to get value out of micic. Micic is older and unproven. His value is likely a second rounder and we have a billion second rounders and 700 guards. Micic at 6-8 million could have been a boon if we’d balanced the roster by drafting a big and traded Dort for a big.

Presti had the opportunity to go from fringe playoff team to top 4 in the West and blew it in typical Presti fashion. He had the assets and the cap space to add young talent that would have balanced the roster and drastically boosted the talent level and instead he gave Dallas cap relief so they could take the player they wanted and OKC needed and OKC takes another PG when they had Micic as an option to bring over to go with their glut of 1-3 and no quality center on the roster. I guess Presti doesn't think SGA is ready to lead a contender so he is intentionally avoiding putting the pieces together that would put that pressure on him. The only other option is that Presti is incompetent. Long time posters here know how I feel about Presti and his ability to build a roster and accurately understand the limitations and ceiling of his poorly constructed rosters.

Who knows what his plan is for this off season and next year. I'd like to think he's trying to build a package and go after players like OG Anunoby. I think he would fit on this roster perfectly next to Chet. He has to have some trade targets in mind and there is a big gap at PF or Center depending on where they fit Chet. I hope he makes a move soon.

You say he is building an unbalanced roster, I think he is building a long team of players that are both good defensively and can all pass and play positionless basketball. I think the roster is actually outstanding and you have to keep in mind we are adding the #2 pick in his rookie season. The #2 pick is in his rookie development season and they likely want to feature him quite a bit. The #3 option on the team is going into his sophomore season. It is a development season even though you want them to compete for a chip, and I believe they will still make the playoffs even if they dont get that free agent PF/C they are looking for... but be patient! Presti is legit a top 5 GM in this league.

[Patches Perry]

After watching NBA basketball religiously for 30 years, I am firmly in the camp of taking the best player available in the draft. Drafting for position rarely yields a good return (unless they also happened to be the BPA).

That said, when it's draft night and you start imagining lineups, of course the urge to draft the position you need is strong, but if the year was 2018, the Thunder drafting for a big man would have got them Marvin Bagley instead of Luka Doncic, or last year even, Jalen Duren over Jalen Williams. These are material differences in caliber that aren't exactly apparent on draft night.

That's not to say the roster imbalances aren't a problem, they obviously are, but I think there is a strong case to be made that the draft is the worst place to try to fix this imbalances.

[jake_swivel]

After watching NBA basketball religiously for 30 years, I am firmly in the camp of taking the best player available in the draft. Drafting for position rarely yields a good return (unless they also happened to be the BPA).

That said, when it's draft night and you start imagining lineups, of course the urge to draft the position you need is strong, but if the year was 2018, the Thunder drafting for a big man would have got them Marvin Bagley instead of Luka Doncic, or last year even, Jalen Duren over Jalen Williams. These are material differences in caliber that aren't exactly apparent on draft night.

That's not to say the roster imbalances aren't a problem, they obviously are, but I think there is a strong case to be made that the draft is the worst place to try to fix this imbalances.

I agree.

That being the case, there is still something to be said for the best player available not being able to get on the floor and reducing his value. Or the best player available forcing productive players to the bench and reducing their trade value.

Sam constructed a roster in which drafting the best player available is going to reduce the value of what he already has. Down to dunk was talking about literally cutting Wiggins and lowering joe’s minutes. Micic has no room to build value and flip for assets. Wiggins is going to end up being some team’s Derrick White and we are going to get a second or late first because of the roster construction.

Again, draft bpa. But if doing so devalues the assets you already have, the GM has mismanaged somewhere along the line. When Sam needs to move forward he tries to cartwheel into a back handspring when a simple step will do. I’ll take him as my GM over pretty much anyone else, but he has chinks in his armor for sure.

[jake_swivel]

You say he is building an unbalanced roster, I think he is building a long team of players that are both good defensively and can all pass and play positionless basketball.

How long can they really be if they have to play Kendrick and JDub at PF and sometimes center?

[Patches Perry]

After watching NBA basketball religiously for 30 years, I am firmly in the camp of taking the best player available in the draft. Drafting for position rarely yields a good return (unless they also happened to be the BPA).

That said, when it's draft night and you start imagining lineups, of course the urge to draft the position you need is strong, but if the year was 2018, the Thunder drafting for a big man would have got them Marvin Bagley instead of Luka Doncic, or last year even, Jalen Duren over Jalen Williams. These are material differences in caliber that aren't exactly apparent on draft night.

That's not to say the roster imbalances aren't a problem, they obviously are, but I think there is a strong case to be made that the draft is the worst place to try to fix this imbalances.

I agree.

That being the case, there is still something to be said for the best player available not being to get on the floor and reducing his value. Or the best player available forcing productive players to the bench and reducing their trade value.

Sam constructed a roster in which drafting the best player available is going to reduce the value of what he already has. Down to dunk was talking about literally cutting Wiggins and lowering joe’s minutes. Micic has no room to build value and flip for assets. Wiggins is going to end up being some team’s Derrick White and we are going to get a second or late first because of the roster construction.

Again, draft bpa. But if doing so devalues the assets you already have, the GM has mismanaged somewhere along the line. When Sam needs to move forward he tries to cartwheel into a back handspring when a simple step will do. I’ll take him as my GM over pretty much anyone else, but he has chinks in his armor for sure.

Absolutely, but I'd say the devaluing process is speculation at this point. We have only had Wallace for 5 days with the season months away. I agree with you that it's possible our logjam will result in guys losing trade value, but that's a long ways off. This is also not a problem that would take long to fix. With the assets we have, Presti is one very realistic trade away from the most balanced roster we've ever had. If that day never comes, then yes Presti deserves some criticism, but at this point 5 days after the draft and pre-free agency, I'd rather be in our current position than in the scenario where we draft Lively for fit and roster balance.