3
Quotatious
Ben Wallace
Kevin Garnett
Predrag Stojakovic
Clyde Drexler
Kevin Johnson
Brad Daugherty
Clifford Robinson
Tayshaun Prince
Hersey Hawkins
Michael Cooper
Coach: Rick Adelman
Spoiler:
Quotatious wrote:Here's why my team would be great:
The main thing is that Ben Wallace and Kevin Garnett give me GOAT level interior defense and rebounding. Wallace's average DBPM for the 3-year stretch I selected is +6.8 - he led the league in DBPM and DWS every year between '02 and '04, and his defensive splits in NPI RAPM were +2.2, +2.6 and +3.6 - he peaked at +4.6 on defense in prior informed RAPM, in 2004. His average TRB% between '02 and '04 was 21.1% - second in '02, first in '03 and third in '04. He's a two time DPOY, in '02 and '03, and finished second in '04 (also won two more, in '05 and '06). He was also one of the best shotblockers in the NBA, with 6.3% BLK.
Garnett's average DBPM between '03 and '05 was +4.4 (ranked 7th, 4th and 6th, respectively), ranked 4th in DWS in '03, and second in both '04 and '05. His average TRB% was 19.7% - ranked 4th, 2nd and 4th, respectively. Garnett obviously won the MVP in '04 (almost unanimously - he got 120 of 123 possible first place votes), and finished as a fairly close runner-up behind Duncan in '03. Garnett also had 2+ defensive splits in RAPM. KG was a fairly decent shotblocker (3.1% BLK), but it's not the most important aspect of his defense - the most important thing about Garnett's defense is his ability to disrupt pick & rolls and command his team's defense, be a vocal leader. Both Garnett and Wallace were outstanding pick & roll defenders, and Big Ben was also an elite rim protector, despite being a bit undersized for a center (but he had very long arms). Remember how great Ben and Rasheed were, defensively? Ben and Kevin would be even better.
Wallace and Garnett are both top 10 (arguably even top 5) defensive players of all-time. Think about it - we've never seen anything like it in the NBA, maybe except for Duncan/Robinson (but unlike the Spurs duo, my guys would be at their absolute peaks).
Depending on matchups, I can also start Brad Daugherty alongside KG. He's not a very good defender, but he's a certainly an excellent, polished low post scorer (21.1 ppg on 61.4% TS) , and a great passer (Garnett may be an even better passer). I plan on splitting the minutes fairly evenly between Wallace and Daugherty, because one guy brings exactly what the other lacks - Wallace is a great defender, but very poor offensive player, Daugherty is the opposite (but Brad's defense is better than Ben's offense). However, I'd rather start Ben, to set the tone defensively right from the beginning, along with KG, and then Daugherty comes in to provide an extra scoring punch. Daugherty was also a good rebounder - 10.5 rpg, 16.0% TRB.
My backup power forward is Clifford Robinson - stretch 4, good athlete, good defender. Almost 37% from beyond the arc, on over 5 attempts per game (I've selected '95-'97 versions of him, and the 3-point line was shortened all three seasons, but he was still a pretty respectable 3-point shooter even with the normal 3-point line, after '97). Capable of averaging 20+ ppg, on about league average efficiency (as he did twice during that 3-year stretch). Really bad rebounder, but I won't use him that much - KG will play about 35-37 minutes, so Cliff only plays about 11-13 minutes, and I'll make sure that Ben Wallace is on the floor with Cliff, all the time, to help mask his weakness as a rebounder.
Now, my backcourt - extremely explosive, awesome transition/open court players like Drexler and KJ - both excellent scorers and playmakers, both pretty unselfish. We're talking about consistent All-NBA 2nd team level performers, in the era when they had to compete with guards like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and John Stockton, among others. Drexler even made the All-NBA 1st team, at his peak in 1992.
KJ is gonna be the primary ballhandler and offensive threat in half-court offense. KJ/KG pick and roll (by the way - both guys have the same first and middle name - Kevin Maurice, which is funny) is gonna be one of the most important parts of my offensive system.
Drexler worked very well as an off-ball player, and he'll have a chance to do so on my team, plus he'll be the secondary ballhandler.
Hersey Hawkins is a great shooter (40% on 3.3 attempts in the early 90s), capable of creating his own shot, and playing decent defense. He also moves the ball well. Seems like a good backup for Clyde.
Michael Cooper brings exactly what Kevin Johnson lacks - size, versatile defense and 3-point shooting (especially in the playoffs, where he shot 45% on 3.1 attempts per game, in the mid/late 80s). He was actually coming off the bench for a stacked team, for almost his entire career, so I'm sure he would accept this role.
My small forwards also complement each other pretty well. Peja Stojakovic is one of the best 3-point shooters in NBA history, he shot over 41% on almost 6 attempts per game, during the 3-year stretch I've selected. Tayshaun Prince was a very good defender (Peja certainly wasn't), with great length, but also good enough quickness to guard explosive wing players (he did a very good job guarding Kobe in the 2004 finals). Also a decent 3-pt shooter - 36.2% on 2.2 attempts per game.
Stojakovic is also comfortable playing off-ball, so I can have KJ and Drexler as my primary ballhandlers/playmakers, and even allow KG to play some point forward, at times (like he did so often in Minnesota, in the early/mid 2000s).
Finally, my team will be coached by Rick Adelman. I have three players who Adelman actually coached (Drexler and Robinson in Portland, Stojakovic in Sacramento), and I also have bigmen who are tailor-made for Adelman's Princeton offense - KG will play Chris Webber's role (he's just as good offensively, also a terrific passer/playmaker for a PF, but way better defensively), and Brad Daugherty playing Divac's/Brad Miller's role.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see any team that would be clearly superior than mine. I really like trex's, Owly's and RSCD's teams, but I think my guys could beat anybody here.
Any early power rankings, guys?
6
owly
Bob Lanier
Karl Malone
Grant Hill
Vince Carter
Chris Paul
Shawn Kemp
Larry Nance
Marques Johnson
Eddie Jones
Terrell Brandon
Coach: Larry Bird
Spoiler:
Owly wrote:Big picture vision/priorities for the team in no particular order (some overlap, I’ll tend to highlight the first 3 or 4 because the rest are boxscore obvious and/or already covered)
- Spacing: Can the frontline hit from 15-20 feet out? Can the guards hit the three? Then we can pull your defensive anchors out of the post, play mismatches (because no one “needs” to be in the post) and punish double teams.
- Passing: Of course we can only punish double teams if our players can pass well (see also avoiding turnovers-errors). I’ve sought to find players that are capable and willing passers. This also helps keep everyone happy.
- Defense: I didn’t necessarily target full on defensive anchors, but looked for each man to be able to guard his man at least adequately, and for the most part well, and there’s enough flexibility-versatility that we’re fine on switches, then that mitigates a bit of the need for “anchor” help defenders, though I’ve hardly abandoned shot blocking and charge taking helps here too.
- Low mistakes: I don’t want players who turn the ball over a lot, miss a lot, or amass cheap fouls. The benefits are obvious but extra possessions also means extra shots, which can’t be bad for morale.
- The skills requisite to play off the ball: Now this isn’t necessarily, are they are renowned off the ball player, because for the Jazz it made a lot of sense to have the ball in Karl Malone’s hands quite often. But do they have a good BBIQ, are they athletic/agile, do they set good screens.
- Two way: Sort of implicit in the above, but 1 way players will tend to compromise spacing and leave you playing 4 on 5 or offer an attack point to consistently scramble your defense. As such I sought players at least average on both ends.
There’s only one player with whom I think really misses the mark on my principles (obviously sometimes guys are only going to be average-ish). Kemp picks up cheap fouls and turns the ball over a lot without a great deal of passing. At that point looking at bigs I knew I’d have to accept below average in one of these areas (Brad Miller for instance would be in defense, ditto Daugherty had I went for him earlier, there are some undrafted bigs that didn’t meet all the criteria and would have been too small to play alongside Nance), still Kemp fits with spacing, offers and agile and versatile defender, can play off the ball (including elite offensive rebounding, court running and of course the alley oops) and play both ends. At the point in the draft he was taken, Kemp hit enough (most) of my requisites and represented excellent talent.
Okay to the team
Bob Lanier
74-76
His shooting - Lanier will stretch the floor and pull rival pivots out of the post. He’s a 79% FT shooter over the span selected, and it’s not difficult to find allusion to him a premier big man shooter, it’s in every bio but for instance (from the time) ...Ebony, Jan 1978 wrote: [of Jim Chones] in fact he has a shooting range that comes close to Bob McAdoo’s and Bob Lanier’sComplete Handbook of Pro Basketball 1975 wrote:Bob Lanier is probably the best outside shooting center in the NBA
His defense – For the spell in question Lanier was a defensive anchor, leading the league in defensive rating in ’74.
Reviews on DThe 1975 Pro Basketball Handbook from 1974 wrote:Lanier is the big difference. He played only when in the mood before last season [i.e. before 73-74 campaign]. He concentrated more on stopping other teams from penetrating and fourth in blocked shots with 247.
[individual bio]
Called "Moses" by his teammates ... For leading them out of the wilderness ...... trimmer last season ...... Defense was his biggest improvementThe 1977 Pro Basketball Handbook from 1976 wrote:Depending on who's in there, the Pistons can make you work. When one of the "whos" is either Trapp or Howard Porter, the opponents can relax a bit. But Rowe, Ford, Mengelt, Kevin Porter, Money and Lanier will get down and play some defense. Lanier, in fact often surprises people by jumping out to pick up guards or forwards. He also clogs the middle nicely.
[individual bio]
Has become a very intimidating defensive player who, like Dave Cowens, is not afraid to switch out on unsuspecting forwards and guards.
As I recall, in ’73 he lost some weight, worked out with Russell and came back a defensive force.
His passing – A 17.5 assist percentage for the span selected indicates a good/willing passer in a big. Suffice it to say Lanier can play the high or low post and create for others.
My massive pro-Lanier arguments from the top 100 thread below, not all absolutely pertinent (comparisons to Elvin Hayes, weird PER and WS/48 metrics but per minute and with a high bar called Wins Above Good).
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1359006&p=41877452#p41877639
TL;DR His numbers aren’t too far off those of a prime Jabbar during this span (and without McAdoo’s bad non-boxscore D), his team clearly missed him in ’76, ’77 and ’78 when he was out, he was an agile and effective defender. Oh and there’s a lot of focus on D here, but Lanier could pummel players down in the post on offense too.
Karl Malone
96-98
Passing – 22 assist percentage, superb for a big man, and with low turnovers for a player with such a large shot creation (both for self and others, and with a consistent double team burden).
Floor spacing – Malone jacked up his fg% in 97 and 98 despite going to his midrange fadeaway more often.
Defense – Not a shotblocker but a well regarded post defender agile enough to cover pick and rolls well and defend out on perimeter where necessary (see below and accolades).
As a treat here’s Karl Malone’s profile from after the ’96 campaign (the worst of the three selected)Rick Barry’s Pro Basketball Bible 96-97 wrote:Season Summary
The amazing Malone keeps on trucking, maintaining his remarkable pace – a level of consistent productivity that is unmatched by any active NBA player ... Some significant numbers: Scored 25 or more points for the ninth consecutive year (25.7, 4th in the league)... Averaged 9.9 rebounds; he’s never accumulated less than 8.9 – in his rookie year... Handed out a career-best 4.2 assists... Shot 51.9%, the ninth time he’s been over the 50% mark in an 11-year career... And by season’s end, this 33-year old had his consecutive game streak extend to 385 – registering double figures in every one of those games.
His Game
Long considered strictly a power player— and he’s firmly established as one of the league’s premier post-up threats – in recent years, Malone has taken his game outside, even to the three-point line (an impressive 40% last year)... Gets lots of jumpers off the pick-and-pop, which he executes as well as any forward in the league... And from the top of the key, he loves to drive, invariably to his right... Still, his game is more inside-out than vice-versa... Double-teamed and even triple teamed every night (an on virtually every possession), he nevertheless manages to slice through the traps, absorb the contact, and make the shot, often getting fouled in the process... Alternatively, he’ll beat the 2-team with his expert passes to spotted-up jump shooters or diving cutters; he’s a much underrated passer (registered his first triple double last year 27 points, 15 rebounds, and 10 assists vs. the Clippers)... Defensively, he often doesn’t get his due... Has perfected the strip on-the-way-up (averaged 1.7 steals) and is also an excellent post defender, willing to bang and capable of moving his feet... He also does a nice job of defending the pick-and-roll, diligently hedging and even willing to chase the little guys when they try to turn the corner... About the only criticism you can make of Malone’s game is an obvious one: in the post-season, he couldn’t make a foul shot, disconnecting on a hard-to-explain 57.4%, compared to 72.3% in the regular season (suggestion: try the underhand method. Co-author Baryy, the second greatest foul-shooter in NBA history and a master of the technique, always available for lessons).
His Attitude
By his sheer will to win, the emotional leader of the Jazz... Takes a beating every night (and gives one too), produces big numbers more regularly than anybody, but in 11 years has missed four, count ‘em, four games... In a word: phenomenal.
Needs to Work On
Foul shooting
Where he’s Headed
The Hall of Fame in the long term and for the near term, same old same old: another 25-(points-and-10(rebounds) year.
In a Nutshell
If there’s any justice in the world, he and his long-time running mate, John Stockton, will get at least one crack at the NBA title before they retire... Nobody is more deserving.
TL;DR I didn't just get a great scorer, I got a top notch passer, a good pick and pop shooter, a gritty post defender and mobile pick and roll coverer.
Grant Hill
97-99
Passing – Obvious. Point forward. Lower-middle class man’s LeBron.
Defense – Elite. Made his living primarily off his D after injuries ravaged his body. Here’s a review on his D after the ’96 campaign. He got even better the next year.Rick Barry’s Pro Basketball Bible 96-97 wrote:But beyond his offense, what makes Hill special, a quality that also distinguishes two players he’s often compared to – Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen – is that he plays both ends: He’s a great defender... His defensive resume includes his versatility (can cover 1s, 2s, 3s and even 4s), ability to play the passing lanes (1.3 steals), size (he’s hard to shoot over), and his willingness to front the post (lots of deflections)
Spacing/Shooting: A relative weakness, though his explosive first step means both that he often doesn’t need it and guarantees him decent airspace.
Vince Carter
Spacing/Shooting- A 40% 3 point shooter during the span selected with a fair proportion of those shots off the bounce with aggressive defensive coverage.
Passing - 3.9apg, 19.9 assist percentage and just 8.9 turnover percentage (albeit that is helped by a high usage, but the point is low mistakes, high creation)
Defense – Strong and (of course) a superb leaper, and solid footwork though lacking elite lateral mobility, my impression of Vince’s D for the span selected is roughly average, perhaps slightly above. The main point here is his capacity for upside when he isn’t being asked to carry quite such a heavy load (He “came into the league playing solid defense, a definite rarity” [Lindy’s 99-00 preview) and has been solid at the end of his career, see for instance: http://grantland.com/features/the-case- ... ing-right/ so I figure he can be better at his peak when he can combine energy/focus, athleticism and a little experience).
Chris Paul
08-? (is ‘10 so injured as to require use of ‘11? Sufficiently injured to allow it? I’ll use 08-10 numbers now just because it’s easiest, 11 would be preferable because his D is back at elite levels, though it makes his bkb-ref numbers harder to calculate and very slightly hurts those numbers because it’s weighing a full season at not quite 08-09 levels rather than 45 games)
Passing: Assist percentage 51.6, turnover percentage 12.9. Assist/Turnover ratio 4.165441176. Don’t know where to get multi-year pure point stuff. Needless to say, off the charts.
Defense: The games pre-eminent defensive point guard (see for instance recent articles about how great his D is).
Shooting/spacing: 37.7% from three with significant numbers of those off the bounce, with high defensive attention and limited time.
Coach Bird I covered when I selected him.
Okay these are getting shorter because I’ve already spent too much time on this. Will maybe enhance and add detail for my second 5 when desired / when I get a chance. Or wait until matchups are done for further details. I’ll give years and maybe quick notes now.
Kemp 94-96: Big, versatile, athletic defender. Superb rebounder. A better floor spacer than you may think.
Nance 91-93: Chose this version over earlier similarly productive models for spacing (had a deadly 18 footer at this point), lower mistakes and supreme shot blocking.
Marques Johnson 79-81: Some point forward tendencies (though not fully in that role until final of the three year span), superb offensive rebounder at the SF, low mistake player. Like Malone chips in across the boxscore.
Eddie Jones 99-01: Agile, long, athletic wing defender will generate steals and block and contest shots. Will be even better when allowed primarily to focus on that (may see significant time with “first unit”). Fares well in Across the Court’s RAPM for ’99 and ’00. Another low mistake player. Good shooter (and as shown later in career, better when not a primary focus of defensive attentions, lockout year also hurt everyone’s percentages)
Terrell Brandon 96-98: Similar to Paul, minimizes turnovers, an accurate shooter despite defences focused on him. Very quick though a little undersized. Slow pace deflates his raw numbers. Hollinger made strong claims on his offensive impact in ’02 though I’d have to compare with other WoWY numbers and understand them better, in any case he carried a crummy offensive cast in slow down system to a fourth seed.
Owly wrote:But fitting with the three year peak nature of this contest I'm going with Larry Bird
Why (given there were title winners on the board)?
- Bird's reputation ensures he commands the respect of the team (shouldn't be an issue, but when minutes get are tight with an all-time team it might help)
- Performance exceeded the talent (whether against '97 -factoring in Smits' injury - or '96) with the same core as coach already selected, Bird produced not insubstantial improvement in SRS.
- Playoff performance - Beyond the above Bird coached the '98 Pacers as close as anyone to defeating a full strength Bulls team (Riley's '92 Knicks also took it to 7 games and fwiw also posted a -3.8 per game differential; '93 Suns do a better job in differential, but this includes benefiting from a 8 point margin in triple OT win, so closer than the diff suggests and only 2-4 in the series); then too he took the 2000 Pacers to the finals and competed with the 3-peat Lakers (superior points diff, but a 2-4 loss). Overall a .615 win percentage in the playoffs is very favourable.
- Player's Coach - With elite players on an all time-y squad you don't need a ranter and raver or someone calling every play.
- Trusted (smart) people - Knew what he did best, and knew when to delegate. One instance would be bringing in Carlisle as his offensive assistant coach.
- Not antithetical to the modern game - Bird (like most ex-pros) might not be metrically inclined but his Pacers (and, okay, they had Reggie), shot and made a fair amount of three's and, at least as importantly, defended the three point line well.
