ATNE Tournament, ROUND 2: 4. JeepCSC v. 5. Jaivl

Post #1 » by **trex_8063** » Tue May 12, 2015 5:14 pm

4
JeepCSC
Robert Parish
Rasheed Wallace
Scottie Pippen
David Thompson
Steph Curry

Ralph Sampson
Dave DeBusschere
Connie Hawkins
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker

Coach: Tex Winter

Spoiler:

JeepCSC wrote:Well I'll do my part now while waiting for decision makers. We should at least have you post your team, though some have them in their signature already. I guess coaching strategy will come in with the write ups. So I'll do simply a hype post about my squad.

Talent is what talent does, but my team also likes to win. All but one have started in a ABA/NBA Finals game (over 160 Finals game starts between them all actually), and the one who hasn't will win MVP this year. They can all play multiple positions and multiple roles. They all excel at doing the little things that makes a team better. They are quite simply the most talented glue-team ever assembled.

I would add simply that this is a scorer's league, and no team has a better collection of scorers than mine. Every player can score, score a lot and efficiently. There will be no 4-on-5 lineups where I'm at the disadvantage. All are willing passers, some elite at it, there is no ball-stopper to be found. You can't load up on any one of my players and watch my offense stall or crumble. Anyone can score at anytime from anywhere on the court. That kind of seamless basketball offense will always trump even a great defense. A ball travels faster than a player, and we will put that maxim to good use.

Saying that, I didn't ignore defense. Rasheed can defend either big spot extremely well, Pippen is perhaps the GOAT perimeter defender, the rest of my starters are good man defenders, and my bench provides flexibility with some outstanding defenders. I will not win games with my defense alone, but I won't lose them because of it either.

One thought to remember, this isn't about the best careers. If it was, I'd bust out. Knees, drugs, gambling, my team took it on the chin and careers were ruined as a result. But this is about peaks, and peaks are very good for my team. I have several who are in the HOF on the strength of their peaks alone. I'd argue there is probably no team better than mine once you factor in peaks. Most seem to have gone the route of finding role players to fill in. I went with superstar talents who were willing to take diminished roles to fill in the holes, and I think the difference will be apparent when the benches play.

At any rate, peak Rasheed could battle peak Duncan and peak KG to draws, peak Pippen is a better #2 than anyone else's #2 because he is the definition of second banana, peak Thompson has a strong case against most any shooting guard peaks outside 3 or 4 (two of whom are unavailable), peak Curry might be in the conversation for top 5 point guard peaks in my lifetime, peak Hawkins was arguably top 5 most talented scorers of the '60s. We never got to see peak Sampson because of injuries and him playing out-of-position after 1984, but he had the tools to be one of the best players ever and even in his shortened career we saw enough that he remains one of the most skilled centers to ever play.

PG: 2013-2015 Stephen Curry- 1 x second-team All-NBA, 2 x All-Star;

Will at all times be the best shooter on the floor; the fact that he is about as smart a point guard there has been ain't too bad either. A commitment to the Triangle will allow Curry's strengths to be maximized and his limitations to be, well, limited. He will be the leader of my team.

SG: 1976-1978 David Thompson- 2 x first-team All-NBA, 1 x second-team All-ABA, 4 x All-Star, HOF;

Walton was a 2-time POY in college and yet he did not win either POY or a title as a senior (ending a 7-year title run) because of this guy; he brought his talents to the ABA and went toe-to-toe with peak Dr. J (albeit in a loss). He continued his success in the transition to the NBA, providing an efficient electrifying shooting guard model within the framework of a fully functional offense that would capture the imaginations of a generation. The closest my team has to a go-to scorer, he will however not be shooting for the league scoring title here, and will be used simply as a piece of the offensive puzzle.

SF: 1994-1996 Scottie Pippen- 3 x first-team All-NBA, 2 x second-team All-NBA, 2 x third-team All-NBA, 8 x All-D first team, 2 x All-D second team, 7 x All-Star, HOF;

His help defense and ability to run an elite offense make him priceless, he is the Swiss-army knife of superstars. He is the personification of hard-working glue men that my team represents. He can and will do whatever it takes to help the team win.

PF: 2001-2003 Rasheed Wallace- 4 x All-Star;

The prototypical power forward in today's game, he can score from anywhere, and he can defend anyone. While I picked his Portland years as his peak, I realize he was not utilized then as well as he was with the Pistons. We will fix that here. He will not be my primary weapon on offense, and he will flourish without the added responsibility. Any untimely run-in with a virtual ref will merely cause me to go to Hawkins/Debusschere a bit more as I see fit, something that sounds a-ok to me.

C: 1981-1983 Robert Parish- 1 x second-team All-NBA, 1 x third-team All-NBA, 9 x All-Star, HOF;

The solidly efficient back line to my front court, he can rebound, score and battle. The most overlooked third of the greatest front court in history, he will the yang to Wallace's yin. His range to 12-15 feet will keep the best big defenders off-balance just enough for Thompson/Curry and company to have a field day penetrating.

Bench:
2011-2013 Tony Parker- 3 x second-team All-NBA, 1 x third-team All-NBA, 6 x All-Star, Finals MVP;

Can run an elite offense, is elite at attacking the basket and hitting from mid-range. He is ideal to give Curry some rest and keep my offense humming along.

1980-1982 Dennis Johnson- 1 x first-team All-NBA, 1 x second-team All-NBA, 6 x All-D first-team, 3 x All-D second-team, 5 x All-Star, Finals MVP, HOF;

A do-it-all combo guard who brings a physical defensive presence. Magic's kryptonite (at least for one Finals), he was also trusted to take a clutch shot on a team with Bird and McHale. He could change his style to fit which ever contender he was on. The type of player every team should have at least one of (or three or four of).

1969-1971 Dave DeBusschere- 1 x second-team All-NBA, 6 x All-D first-team, 8 x All-Star, HOF;

My frontcourt counterpoint to Johnson, he could battle well with Wilt or Baylor. He was well-suited for today's game, a forward with range and a willingness to pass.

1969-1971 Connie Hawkins- 1 x first-team All-NBA, 2 x first-team All-ABA, ABA MVP, ABA playoff MVP, 5 x All-Star, HOF;

A forward ahead of his time, even if we saw only glimpses of what his peak could have been. He could attack the basket with relish, and no one was stopping him. Might be the best player on my team peak-wise, and that is only counting ABA whereas perhaps his true peak was lost with the Globetrotters.

1984-1986 Ralph Sampson- 1 x second-team All-NBA, 4 x All-Star, HOF;

A center so talented he thought he was a guard. But we will stick to what he is best at here, a defensive center presence which provides nightmarish mismatches offensively.

Coach: Tex Winter- Wrote the blueprint which built dynasties. They say it wasn't the triangle, it was merely the talent. I say let's try both.

5
Jaivl
Dikembe Mutombo
Dirk Nowitzki
Luol Deng
Manu Ginobili
Mookie Blaylock

Bill Laimbeer
Nene
Danny Granger
Tony Allen
Russell Westbrook

Coach: Rick Carlisle

Spoiler:

JeepCSC · Post #2 » by **JeepCSC** » Fri May 15, 2015 7:04 am

A bit more about my team's general function from the first thread.

Spoiler:

There will be a revision once I know which team Jaivl will be playing with. Just a basic outline for now.

- This is not the unguardable Dirk of 2011, merely the very-hard-to-contain Dirk. The one who had issues with smaller, quicker players. Sheed will spend time on him, but probably not as much as I originally thought he would. I'll probably play at least some with a smaller lineup, particularly when Laimbeer is in, moving Sheed over to the 5 to take full advantage of Laimbeer's slowness. Pippen will then take a crack at keeping Dirk afraid to dribble. Probably the best way to stop Dirk is to chinese water torture him on the other end until he tires. Expect a constant barrage of Wallace/Hawkins running at him in the post.

- Backcourt wise, Ginobli is the fear for the 20-some odd minutes he is on the court. Pippen will be the primary guard for him when Parish is in, but I'll bring in Dennis Johnson a bit more than before just to give Ginobli a reason to flop.

- I'm (mostly) fine with the other matchups defensively.

- My offense will be tweaked a bit, as I'd like my playmakers to exploit the post advantages a bit more. Pippen will probably play point a bit more than the last game to give Curry more room off-ball.

Minutes:

PG- Curry 34 / Parker 14
Wings- Pippen 34 / Thompson 30 / DeBusschere 18/ Johnson 12
Bigs- Wallace 34 / Parish 28 / Hawkins 24 / Sampson 10

Shot attempts:

Thompson 12-14
Curry 12-14
Wallace 12-14
Hawkins 10-12
Parish 8-10
Pippen 6-8
Parker 4-6
Rest of team 8-12

JeepCSC · Post #3 » by **JeepCSC** » Tue May 19, 2015 3:43 pm

So upon reflection, I'm switching it up a little. I'd have preferred something to respond to, but.

Defensively-

A) Dirk is the main issue. Rasheed will start out on him, Parish on Laimbeer (they met a few times you may have heard, even if their peaks never coincided). I originally wanted Sheed on Laimbeer, but instead I'll move Sheed over when Mutumbo is in. Pippen will move to Dirk in this situation, and use his footwork and hands to make Dirk have to put the ball on the floor and regret living. Debusschere will be Pippen's replacement, playing less time with Pippen unlike the last game.

B) Ginobli is the secondary issue. The whirling dervish is the key to opening up their offense. Pippen will have primary defensive duties when my starting lineup is in. His length will be used to deny Ginobli's first step, and hopefully frustrate Manu enough to make some poor passes. DJ will see more time on Ginobli in an effort to make things a bit more physical. Even if the refs favor the flopper, fouls over Ginobli initiating the offense is the lesser of two evils.

C) Westbrook is the third offensive superstar, but he will be coming from the bench. Thompson will be his main defender, though efficiency and ball-hogging will be the best defense for me against Westbrook.

D) The rest are the rest, let them come.

Offensively-

A) I want to keep pressure on mismatches up-front. Getting Mutumbo out of the lane, and punishing Dirk on the block will be key. Both Parish and Wallace have the range to bring Mutumbo out, though I'm imagining Wallace will be the main guy here. Hawkins will then have free range in the post. When Laimbeer is in, I'll let Parish battle his old friend, and just let Wallace pick Dirk apart from every single area of the court. Tiring Dirk out defensively will be key.

B) Pippen will not be needed to attack, which will aid him defensively where he will be my main workhorse. He will take on more orchestrating duties. The fast hands of Jaivl's backcourt will have less time to hurt us when Curry is coming off screens more.

C) While I will look from more post production out of my front court, Thompson will remain the engine with his drives.

Post #4 » by **trex_8063** » Wed May 20, 2015 7:44 pm

OK, need to take a stand and make a pick; get the ball rolling.....all these second round match-ups seem pretty close.

I'm going to do some simple "categorize and compare" just to help me organize my thoughts......

Perimeter scoring: small edge Jeep

Post/big-man scoring: small edge Jaivl; Parish clearly trumps Dikembe, but Dirk>>>>>Wallace in this aspect......rest of them seem roughly a wash.

Rebounding: wash. Dirk's clearly a better/more consistent rebounder than Wallace (Parish and Dikembe roughly equal).....but Jeep's frontcourt bench is a stronger rebounding group than Jaivl's (Pippen marginally better than Deng, too).

3pt shooting: idk, roughly a wash. Jeep's got the single best 3pt shooter (Curry), and Wallace can stretch to that range; Pippen not bad, too. But he's got precious few 3pt shooters off the bench. Jaivl's got Dirk and Manu, Granger off the bench; plus Mookie's OK (Jaivl overstated his 3pt prowess, though, for reasons I outlined previously), Westbrook and Deng are at best "OK" outside shooters. Laimbeer has that kind of range, too. It's pretty close overall, imo; I'm not comfortable calling one better than the other.

Spacing: I'm going to give the small edge to Jaivl. Dirk's got the "floor warping" effect, Laimbeer stretch the floor from the center position, Nene can shoot at least out to ~18-19', while Dikembe will be mostly anchored to the low block. Manu and Granger, too.

Post defense and rim-protection: I gotta give the small edge to Jaivl. Dikembe's a GOAT-level shot-blocker, shot-changer. Dirk's a solid post-defender; Nene, too imo. Sampson's a nice shot-blocker, and Wallace/Parish are both solid. But I gotta side with Dikembe by a small margin.

Pick n' roll defense: clear edge to Jeep, imo--->Pippen, Wallace both elite in this regard. I suspect DeBusschere and Hawkins could be be quite good in this regard, too. And this is one of Dirk's weaker aspects defensively (even though this is younger Dirk).

Perimeter defense: small edge Jaivl--->Tony Allen plus Mookie Blaylock, as well as Manu, Deng, and a Westbrook who presumably can lend more focus and energy to defense on this team. Jeep's got a pretty nice defensive backcourt, too, so I think it's a small margin. But Jaivl's is just too impressive to ignore.

Screens/other intangibles: small edge Jeep. Guys like Wallace and DeBusschere bring a lot of that to the table, imo (this category is of minor importance to me, though).

Coaching and team plan: Jeep has a more clear vision, so I'll give him credit for that. But I like Rick Carlisle better as a coach. So I'm going to call this a wash.

Hmm, where does that leave me?.....
I'll cast a tentative vote for Jaivl. Better perimeter defenders, better rim protector, lesser pick n' roll defense, though Jeep doesn't intend to rely heavily on pnr anyway; and Jaivl has a little better spacing imo (and is generally very really close or even equal in most other aspects of the game).

JeepCSC · Post #5 » by **JeepCSC** » Thu May 21, 2015 5:52 am

- I have two 19-point scorers on 55% TS% in my starting frontcourt. The first guy off the bench is a 27-point scorer on 58% shooting. My worst scoring big is a 20-point 53% shooter. Even if you thought Dirk was Wilt-reborn, you can't give a scoring edge up front to a team with a rotation of Deke, Nene, and Laimbeer.

- Threes are overrated on some level. They are not an end, merely a means. They provide spacing and help overcome big deficits quickly. But spacing can come from a smart system and long 2s, and the fast break can do damage quickly as well. The fact Curry will warp the defense every second he is on the court because of his threes is a bonus. Granted you state this is an area of minimal difference here, but it was mentioned before, and I figured I'd sort of address it. All my players have range enough that I'm not concerned the tiniest bit about spacing. No need for four-out, one-in.

- Any advantage Jaivl has in spacing (which I think is minimal at best) is on offense alone. My players are better equipped to handle the spacing defensively. Jaivl's players can't cover the area my guys can cover, particularly in the frontcourt.

- As far as the perimeter defense, Jaivl won't be playing them all at once. He'd be hard-pressed trying to find a rotation to get Allen, easily his best perimeter defender, much time on the court honestly. His offense isn't good enough to carry a hole that big.

- Coaches are limited in what they can do, probably doubly-so here. They can provide a system and then players play. They can provide some adjustments (which I guess you are imagining), but there is only so much scheming to be had in-game. Pop didn't plan for Parker to look 50 against the Clippers, and neither did Doc.

In general, while I think Jaivl's offense is fine as is, I don't think it is enough to overwhelm my defense even if we imagine Manu playing full starter minutes. Certainly not enough to compensate for the larger gulf that I think exists between what I think his defense would be able to stop.

Post #6 » by **trex_8063** » Thu May 21, 2015 6:05 pm

JeepCSC wrote:- I have two 19-point scorers on 55% TS% in my starting frontcourt. The first guy off the bench is a 27-point scorer on 58% shooting. My worst scoring big is a 20-point 53% shooter. Even if you thought Dirk was Wilt-reborn, you can't give a scoring edge up front to a team with a rotation of Deke, Nene, and Laimbeer.

Connie's raw ppg numbers are a bit inflated by his huge minutes played the pace of the day. If we do the math to get a per 100 possession estimate, we see that his pts/100 poss in '68 is just 26.6, for instance. His shooting efficiency (especially relative to league norms) was indeed amazing, though.
However, all of this may to some degree be influenced by weaker competition during two of the three years in your span.

And fwiw, I wasn't sure (between Hawkins and DeBusschere) how much of their time was split between SF/PF; so I was kind of giving Hawkins (as a scorer) half-weight (or maybe 2/3 weight) in the "Big man" comparison, and then a third/half-weight for Dave, too. Then they each got a partial weight in the perimeter scorer comp.
And DeBusschere was a middle volume guy who was BELOW league avg shooting efficiency EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his career (his BEST year was only -0.3% rTS; his worst was -6.0%). I'd like to think this would pick up in a modern context, where 1) I think he'd have the range to hit the trey, and 2) coaching/strategic emphasis has---in stark contrast to his day---turned a heavy degree of focus on to efficiency. Still, I don't think we can fairly consider him any better than mediocre as a scorer.

And another thing to factor when considering Sampson as a scorer is that he was turnover-prone (none of Jaivl's bigs are).

Dirk was 36.4 pts/100 on 59.0% ts (in the modern era---the context for this tourney---and while facing Duncan or KG on a regular basis in the SW Division of the WC), and did this with a very low turnover rate, too.

Further, I think you might be underrating Nene and Laimbeer in this respect.....
Laimbeer was already a mid-volume scorer on decent efficiency with an exceedingly low turnover rate. And his offensive stock only goes up in modern context, imo, with the heavy utilization of stretch bigs.
Peak Nene was an excellent (near-elite) finisher, good mid-range shooter, decent at the FT-line......averaged slightly above average volume on 64.4% ts (twice led the league).
Dikembe is the weakest offensive big in his line-up, but at least plays within himself: smallish volume scorer, but on totally respectable (quite good, actually) efficiency (interestingly, was 58.4% ts in EACH of the three years selected).

JeepCSC · Post #7 » by **JeepCSC** » Thu May 21, 2015 7:00 pm

DeBusschere has range and Connie has the post moves, so ideally outside switches, they'll play sf and pf respectively on offense. Defensively is a different matter.

Incidentally, if we are doing per-100 rates, only Dirk's scoring is above three of my guys that we have info for (Parish, Sheed, and Sampson) who are all hovering around 28-30 points-per-100. Jaivl doesn't have anyone else cracking 22, and obviously Mutumbo is well below even that. Scoring-wise, I have 4 very good volume scorers in the post. That beats 1 great volume scorer and a bunch of efficient outlet scorers. If the main weakness if my fourth guy's turnovers being a tad higher than Nene's or whoever, I think I'll be okay in the post.

Post #8 » by **trex_8063** » Thu May 21, 2015 8:28 pm

JeepCSC wrote:DeBusschere has range and Connie has the post moves, so ideally outside switches, they'll play sf and pf respectively on offense. Defensively is a different matter.

Incidentally, if we are doing per-100 rates, only Dirk's scoring is above three of my guys that we have info for (Parish, Sheed, and Sampson) who are all hovering around 28-30 points-per-100. Jaivl doesn't have anyone else cracking 22, and obviously Mutumbo is well below even that. Scoring-wise, I have 4 very good volume scorers in the post. That beats 1 great volume scorer and a bunch of efficient outlet scorers. If the main weakness if my fourth guy's turnovers being a tad higher than Nene's or whoever, I think I'll be okay in the post.

To pick a couple nits:
*Sampson isn't quite in the 28-30 range (27.0 for selected span); neither is Sheed for that matter (27.2).
**Jaivl does have one other cracking the 22-mark (if just barely): Nene is 22.4 pts/100 in span selected (which is precisely as I indicated: "slightly above average volume").

But again, there are the other factors to consider:
*Sampson is actually -0.5% ts to league average over those three years, and turnover-prone besides (significantly above anyone else in this particular discussion).
**I have concerns about how Hawkins can perform against this level of competition (I don't think he's going to look as stellar as he did against the competition of the late-60's ABA).

I rank the bigs (as scorers) like this:

1. Dirk

2-3. Parish/Hawkins
4. Sheed
5-6. Sampson/Nene. *Sorry, I'm just not terribly impressed with Sampson. He has a lot of lore around him for being 7'4" with some guard skills.....but for whatever reason he largely didn't get it done at what I'd call an elite level. Maybe trying TOO much to play like a perimeter player (settling for jumpers instead of drawing contact, trying for a flashy play too often, etc), idk. In all, I see him as a "good" scorer, but not an elite one. I see Nene as a pretty good scorer, too. Frankly, on a statistical comp only, I'd give the edge to Nene. But I recognize that Sampson is more capable if given the ball in isolation.
7. Laimbeer
8. Dikembe

So fwiw, if Connie will be strictly PF on offense (and we're removing DeBusschere from consideration), then I could see calling the low-post/big-man scoring comparison a draw (still not giving you an edge, as I simply feel Dirk is the best scorer by a large margin). Though bear in mind this retracts Connie from being a consideration in your perimeter scoring, which lessens your edge in that realm.

JeepCSC · Post #9 » by **JeepCSC** » Fri May 22, 2015 5:48 am

For fun, here is the scoring-per-100 for the players adjusted for games played each season.

Jaivl

Mookie- 23.9 pp100
Manu (skipping 2006 which I perhaps should have challenged)- 31.8
Granger- 31.3
Dirk- 36.4
Laimbeer- 19.5

Westbrook- 36.9
Allen- 20.1
Deng- 23
Nene- 22.5
Mutumbo- 19.4

Jeep

Curry- 32.9
Thompson- 30.8
Pippen- 29
Sheed- 27.2
Parish- 30.1

Parker- 29.5
DJ- 25.4
Sampson- 27

Dirk is great, but he doesn't offset the scoring deficit in the post. The problem for Jaivl is he is locked in with Mutumbo/Laimbeer and their scoring punch will be minimal. Dirk is really the only above-average post threat they have, which of course is great for me since every minute Dirk is battling for positioning in the paint is a minute he is not stroking it from deep. Worse for Jaivl, not only do I have five starters who can score efficiently at a high volume, two of them double as elite defenders. Jaivl's best defenders (Mutumbo and Allen) can't score with any regularity and are even worse with the playmaking. Playing them requires trade offs. For his part, Laimbeer gives outside shooting, but Dirk can do that and better. You are left with a player whose idea of a post game involves elbows and lots of it. Sampson' turnovers for the 10 minutes he is in the game is a non-starter unless you think everything else is a coin-flip.

Post #10 » by **trex_8063** » Fri May 22, 2015 6:33 pm

On a side-note: You do know that bbref has a feature where---for any contiguous span of years---you can simply click on the line of the first year of your sample (which will highlight it blue), then click on the last year of your selected span (whereupon it will highlight all the years within and create a small sub-window of stats for the entire span)?

I ask because you made mention of "adjusted for games played" (like you went to the trouble of extra work) and then posted numbers that are just marginally off (by like 0.1 or so) in a few spots (e.g. Mookie for instance is 24.0, not 23.9; Parish is 30.0, not 30.1).
If you use bbref's convenient features, it will do the work for you (and it doesn't just add the pts/100 poss for the 3-year span and divide by three, if that's what you're worried about.......it accounts/adjusts for games played, or more specifically in the case of Per100 stats: possessions played each season).
idk, maybe you are aware of this feature and adjusted for games for another reason (seems unnecessary, as the figures bbref gives would be weighted/adjusted to possessions played…..which obviously is heavily influenced by games played).

Anyway…..
Since you listed perimeter players above, too, I’ll state that I rate your team a little higher as far as pure scoring ability overall (bigs and perimeter players combined)......but this all stemmed from debate about big-man scoring only. And wrt to bigs only (listed in order of how they’re likely to rank in playing time)…...

Pts/100 Poss. (appears to favor your squad, though not by a big margin when weighted for playing time)
Your squad
Parish: 30.0
Wallace: 27.2
Hawkins: likely about 26 ('68 is the only year I've formulated accurate estimate for, and it was 26.6)
Sampson: 27.0

Jaivl's
Dirk: 36.4
Dikembe: 19.4
Laimbeer: 19.4
Nene: 22.4

But then we can have a look at some different statistical components of scoring, other than just volume....

relative TS% (clearly favors Jaivl’s squad by a small margin)
Your squad
Parish: +4.2%
Wallace: +3.2%
Hawkins: +8.2% (fwiw, +5.2% in the one NBA year in this span)
Sampson: -0.5%

Jaivl's
Dirk: +5.5%
Dikembe: +6.1%
Laimbeer: +1.8%
Nene: +10.1%

Turnover% (pretty close I guess, though fwiw TO/100 poss rates Sampson a bit worse and Dikembe a bit better...)
Your squad
Parish: 12.9%
Wallace: 9.8%
Hawkins: *11.3% (*in ABA only)
Sampson: 16.1%

Jaivl's
Dirk: 8.8%
Dikembe: 16.8%
Laimbeer: 11.2%
Nene: 13.5%

Post #11 » by **trex_8063** » Sat May 23, 2015 2:33 pm

Oh, I forgot to include playmaking as part of the comparison, although doesn't much matter as I'd basically call it a draw.

I don't see a clear advantage either way as far as your starting PG's, and Pippen/Manu seems pretty much a wash, too. Jeep also has Hawkins, who was a pretty good passing combo forward (the first "point-forward"????), but I otherwise like Jaivl's bigs as passers more than Jeep's. And Westbrook I feel is a little better playmaker than Jeep's bench backcourt, though Tony Allen not as good as either of Jeep's bench backcourt.
Overall, I don't see a clear advantage for either squad, so it doesn't change anything for me.

JeepCSC · Post #12 » by **JeepCSC** » Sun May 24, 2015 12:24 am

Have never spent much time on basketball reference, so I didn't know how to do that, thanks.

I still think there is a fairly large post scoring deficit when Mutumbo/Laimbeer will be 50% of the frontcourt. The deficit becomes more pronounced given that my corps I think is better able to defend than Jaivl's quartet. Particularly Sheed when he is stuck with Mutumbo and can drift accordingly.

But this doesn't seem to be drumming up much in ways of other thoughts, and Jaivl is a no-show, so I think it is probably time to call it a day.