2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion

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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#101 » by flaco » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:05 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I'll definitely add him on my list after this season, but I'll probably be hesitant to select a rookie in an all-time draft. Fit-wise, he'd be a perfect stretch 5 alongside Barkley / Giannis / Karl Malone / interior-oriented PFs in general. Give Chet a couple of seasons and I think he'll become a regular in our games. The starting-calibre stretch 5 pool is very shallow: Horford, 2023 JJJ, 2024 Porzingis, older Marc Gasol, BroLo, that's about it. Maybe Arvydas, but he wasn't a volume shooter. KAT and Bosh leave a lot to be desired on D. I bet Chet (and obviously Wemby) will be very popular in future games.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#102 » by Snakebites » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:18 pm

flaco wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I'll definitely add him on my list after this season, but I'll probably be hesitant to select a rookie in an all-time draft. Fit-wise, he'd be a perfect stretch 5 alongside Barkley / Giannis / Karl Malone / interior-oriented PFs in general. Give Chet a couple of seasons and I think he'll become a regular in our games. The starting-calibre stretch 5 pool is very shallow: Horford, 2023 JJJ, 2024 Porzingis, older Marc Gasol, BroLo, that's about it. Maybe Arvydas, but he wasn't a volume shooter. KAT and Bosh leave a lot to be desired on D. I bet Chet (and obviously Wemby) will be very popular in future games.



Horford, JJJ, Zingis, Gasol, BroLo. Turner can do the job in some pools too.

Considering that most drafts have 8 or 10 and many teams will draft a superstar center or a rim running defensive anchor (guys like Gobert or even Chandler), that’s actually fairly deep depending on restrictions.

Which of those stretches is Chet better than? Any yet?
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#103 » by flaco » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:27 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:
Snakebites wrote:I think it was Flaco a while back who mentioned that guys like Luka are better in shallower pools where it’s harder to stack 3-4 hall of Famers onto one team, and there’s more value in a clear team identity.

Makes sense, normally Luka’s rigid fit and high price makes it harder to stack multiple stars alongside him without having a wonky team, and based on how judging works in deep pools the team with fewer Hall of Famers loses 9 times out of 10.

This would qualify.

I was targeting Luka at #7 despite his high FGA cost for the reason you just mentioned. Didn't expect Embiid to be available though. Luka-AD spaming the spread PnR are unguardable. The fit is optimal, but Fade had to make compromises in terms of talent with his subsequent picks. Talent-wise, he may have been better off with a star wing and a rim runner at the 5. I mean, db drafted his starting Center in the 8th round and I think he has the best team in the draft. The Center position was very deep. Unless you got Jokic/Embiid (MVP-level bigs, game changers), I don't think it was worth it taking a Center that early.

Haliburton in round 3 was an absolute steal. I consider him a top 10 player in the league, plus he's relatively cheap at 15.8 FGA. Still hate myself for passing up on him. I was kinda worried about the fit with Butler. Both of them are at their best with the ball in their hands. Haliburton can certainly play off the ball, but I wouldn't maximize his passing ability anymore which is his biggest strength.

I consider AD a game-changer, especially defensively. (Possibly a hot take: I'd pretty much always take him over Embiid, especially when you factor in FGA cost.) Rim-running bigs tend to have so-so impact against a well-prepared team.

He's certainly a game changer on D, but he relies on a ball handler to set him up on offense. To put it another way, he's a 2nd option on offense. For instance, the same goes for KG. Neither of them enjoyed team success as the #1 option. They won a ring when they weren't expected to carry the scoring load anymore. You got an elite creator in Luka, that's for sure. Thing is, most teams have two/three 1st options on their roster. It's up to the voters to decide whether their synergy is good enough to counter your optimal fit. It's the ever-present fit vs talent dilemma. :dontknow:
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#104 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:32 pm

I struggled with the Rd 2 options as I knew the high FGA guards weren't worth taking there (Brunson didn't even get drafted). I guess Hali would've been a nice #2 at slightly cheaper cost than some of those guys.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#105 » by Snakebites » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:33 pm

flaco wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:I was targeting Luka at #7 despite his high FGA cost for the reason you just mentioned. Didn't expect Embiid to be available though. Luka-AD spaming the spread PnR are unguardable. The fit is optimal, but Fade had to make compromises in terms of talent with his subsequent picks. Talent-wise, he may have been better off with a star wing and a rim runner at the 5. I mean, db drafted his starting Center in the 8th round and I think he has the best team in the draft. The Center position was very deep. Unless you got Jokic/Embiid (MVP-level bigs, game changers), I don't think it was worth it taking a Center that early.

Haliburton in round 3 was an absolute steal. I consider him a top 10 player in the league, plus he's relatively cheap at 15.8 FGA. Still hate myself for passing up on him. I was kinda worried about the fit with Butler. Both of them are at their best with the ball in their hands. Haliburton can certainly play off the ball, but I wouldn't maximize his passing ability anymore which is his biggest strength.

I consider AD a game-changer, especially defensively. (Possibly a hot take: I'd pretty much always take him over Embiid, especially when you factor in FGA cost.) Rim-running bigs tend to have so-so impact against a well-prepared team.

He's certainly a game changer on D, but he relies on a ball handler to set him up on offense. To put it another way, he's a 2nd option on offense. For instance, the same goes for KG. Neither of them enjoyed team success as the #1 option. They won a ring when they weren't expected to carry the scoring load anymore. You got an elite creator in Luka, that's for sure. Thing is, most teams have two/three 1st options on their roster. It's up to the voters to decide whether their synergy is good enough to counter your optimal fit. It's the ever-present fit vs talent dilemma. :dontknow:


I’m always more on the fit side. Never mind any philosophical implications, I don’t find “let’s see how many stars I can squeeze onto this team” to be a particularly enjoyable way to build.

2 of my recent wins were teams that, to be honest, I didn’t love. They won because I had an extra star.

Thats how voting has been going though.

Fade and I saw our respective spread P/R teams (mine with Harden, his with Luka) flame out in round one without a single vote. They didn’t have enough star power despite both being pretty synergistic.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#106 » by Fadeaway_J » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:40 pm

flaco wrote:
Fadeaway_J wrote:
flaco wrote:I was targeting Luka at #7 despite his high FGA cost for the reason you just mentioned. Didn't expect Embiid to be available though. Luka-AD spaming the spread PnR are unguardable. The fit is optimal, but Fade had to make compromises in terms of talent with his subsequent picks. Talent-wise, he may have been better off with a star wing and a rim runner at the 5. I mean, db drafted his starting Center in the 8th round and I think he has the best team in the draft. The Center position was very deep. Unless you got Jokic/Embiid (MVP-level bigs, game changers), I don't think it was worth it taking a Center that early.

Haliburton in round 3 was an absolute steal. I consider him a top 10 player in the league, plus he's relatively cheap at 15.8 FGA. Still hate myself for passing up on him. I was kinda worried about the fit with Butler. Both of them are at their best with the ball in their hands. Haliburton can certainly play off the ball, but I wouldn't maximize his passing ability anymore which is his biggest strength.

I consider AD a game-changer, especially defensively. (Possibly a hot take: I'd pretty much always take him over Embiid, especially when you factor in FGA cost.) Rim-running bigs tend to have so-so impact against a well-prepared team.

He's certainly a game changer on D, but he relies on a ball handler to set him up on offense. To put it another way, he's a 2nd option on offense. For instance, the same goes for KG. Neither of them enjoyed team success as the #1 option. They won a ring when they weren't expected to carry the scoring load anymore. You got an elite creator in Luka, that's for sure. Thing is, most teams have two/three 1st options on their roster. It's up to the voters to decide whether their synergy is good enough to counter your optimal fit. It's the ever-present fit vs talent dilemma. :dontknow:

I don't see many teams with two/three legit first options in this draft. More importantly, both my first and second options have proven to be very reliable postseason scorers, even AD when his best creators were Jrue and post-prime Rondo. Also, pretty much nobody has been able to slow Luka down in the playoffs (exception being maybe Kawhi, but he's not able to sustain that level of effort at this stage of his career). Throw in J-Dub and Jrue and it's more than enough imo.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#107 » by flaco » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:56 pm

Snakebites wrote:
flaco wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I'll definitely add him on my list after this season, but I'll probably be hesitant to select a rookie in an all-time draft. Fit-wise, he'd be a perfect stretch 5 alongside Barkley / Giannis / Karl Malone / interior-oriented PFs in general. Give Chet a couple of seasons and I think he'll become a regular in our games. The starting-calibre stretch 5 pool is very shallow: Horford, 2023 JJJ, 2024 Porzingis, older Marc Gasol, BroLo, that's about it. Maybe Arvydas, but he wasn't a volume shooter. KAT and Bosh leave a lot to be desired on D. I bet Chet (and obviously Wemby) will be very popular in future games.



Horford, JJJ, Zingis, Gasol, BroLo. Turner can do the job in some pools too.

Considering that most drafts have 8 or 10 and many teams will draft a superstar center or a rim running defensive anchor (guys like Gobert or even Chandler), that’s actually fairly deep depending on restrictions.

Which of those stretches is Chet better than? Any yet?

I'd definitely take him over Myles Turner. Probably over BroLo. Possibly over older Marc (not the DPOY version). In a vacuum, I'd rather have prime Zinger, but he's effective only in a drop scheme. Chet gives you more flexibility. I'd select him over Zinger if I were planning to run a switch-heavy scheme (let's say on a Penny Hardaway team). I'd always opt for Horford and 2023 JJJ over rookie Chet regardless of fit.

Horford and JJJ are regularly used at PF so basically we're left with 2-3 legit options (Zinger is expensive prior to this season). I've had plenty of drafts where I select an interior-oriented PF and I feel pressured to select a stretch 5 early cause I'll be left out of options. At the same time, if I reach for Horford/JJJ in round 3 I'll probably end up with a talent deficit. Again, the ever-present fit vs talent dilemma. :dontknow:
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#108 » by Snakebites » Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:11 pm

flaco wrote:
Snakebites wrote:
flaco wrote:I'll definitely add him on my list after this season, but I'll probably be hesitant to select a rookie in an all-time draft. Fit-wise, he'd be a perfect stretch 5 alongside Barkley / Giannis / Karl Malone / interior-oriented PFs in general. Give Chet a couple of seasons and I think he'll become a regular in our games. The starting-calibre stretch 5 pool is very shallow: Horford, 2023 JJJ, 2024 Porzingis, older Marc Gasol, BroLo, that's about it. Maybe Arvydas, but he wasn't a volume shooter. KAT and Bosh leave a lot to be desired on D. I bet Chet (and obviously Wemby) will be very popular in future games.



Horford, JJJ, Zingis, Gasol, BroLo. Turner can do the job in some pools too.

Considering that most drafts have 8 or 10 and many teams will draft a superstar center or a rim running defensive anchor (guys like Gobert or even Chandler), that’s actually fairly deep depending on restrictions.

Which of those stretches is Chet better than? Any yet?

I'd definitely take him over Myles Turner. Probably over BroLo. Possibly over older Marc (not the DPOY version). In a vacuum, I'd rather have prime Zinger, but he's effective only in a drop scheme. Chet gives you more flexibility. I'd select him over Zinger if I were planning to run a switch-heavy scheme (let's say on a Penny Hardaway team). I'd always opt for Horford and 2023 JJJ over rookie Chet regardless of fit.

Horford and JJJ are regularly used at PF so basically we're left with 2-3 legit options (Zinger is expensive prior to this season). I've had plenty of drafts where I select an interior-oriented PF and I feel pressured to select a stretch 5 early cause I'll be left out of options. At the same time, if I reach for Horford/JJJ in round 3 I'll probably end up with a talent deficit. Again, the ever-present fit vs talent dilemma. :dontknow:


Yeah. I’ve sort of stopped picking Giannis for that reason. The stretch centers are nice but they’re also expensive. If I’m not getting a star caliber center I’d usually rather go cheap at the 5.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#109 » by durantbird » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:37 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I think he can be a popular PF selection
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#110 » by Snakebites » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:59 pm

durantbird wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I think he can be a popular PF selection

He’s toast if he matches up to Barkley or Malone.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#111 » by Laimbeer » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:59 pm

durantbird wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I think he can be a popular PF selection


My thoughts as well.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#112 » by Fadeaway_J » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Snakebites wrote:
durantbird wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:Anyone seeing Chet as a popular pick in future games? Great defense, effective three point shooter, switchable. 11.8 fga.

I think he can be a popular PF selection

He’s toast if he matches up to Barkley or Malone.

Also, he presents more of a matchup problem for 5s than 4s.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#113 » by flaco » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:39 pm

Never understood the fascination with height on this board. The modern game is all about pace and space. By starting 2 bigs, you are almost guaranteed to have a slower team than your opponent. That's not necessarily an issue if you have a half-court maestro like Jokic, CP3 or Luka, but these kind of players are hard to find (or very expensive in the case of Luka). People used to say that ''offense wins games, defense wins championships''. That's not the case anymore. The Nuggets had the 15th best defense, yet they won because of their brilliant offense. The best defensive team in the league were the Cavs and they almost got swept in the 1st round. The 2nd best defensive team were the Grizzlies and they also lost in the first round. The 5th best defensive team were the Bulls and they didn't even make the playoffs.

Slow pace is only part of the problem. The biggest weakness of 2-bigs lineups is perimeter defense. That's where space comes into play. Very few bigs can actually defend the 3pt line. Imo, the best one is Bam who almost never gets selected cause he's considered barbeque chicken against traditional Centers. Most bigs (including modern players) are better suited in a drop scheme. Even Giannis who's extremely mobile for his size is nothing special when moving laterally on the perimeter (although he's lethal as a help defender).

Obviously, our games are unrealistic cause we have access to all-time great Centers from the past decades. Not sure how modern teams would defend a behemoth like Shaq. My guess is they'd try to run him off the court. The answer against old school bigs is playing faster, not bigger with Chet at PF. You can never outmuscle Shaq/Wilt/etc, but you can definitely outrun them.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#114 » by Snakebites » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:03 pm

flaco wrote:. The answer against old school bigs is playing faster, not bigger with Chet at PF. You can never outmuscle Shaq/Wilt/etc, but you can definitely outrun them.


I think that’s what the team that allowed Wilt 100 points tried to do initially. Outrun him.

Of course, they were trying to do it with 1960s players. So there’s that.
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#115 » by flaco » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:17 pm

Snakebites wrote:
flaco wrote:. The answer against old school bigs is playing faster, not bigger with Chet at PF. You can never outmuscle Shaq/Wilt/etc, but you can definitely outrun them.


I think that’s what the team that allowed Wilt 100 points tried to do initially. Outrun him.

Of course, they were trying to do it with 1960s players. So there’s that.

The game has come a long way since the 60s. They didn't even have the 3pt line at the time. PnR wasn't a big deal either. As great as Wilt was, he'd be all over the place if forced to defend in space or close out on 3pt shooters.

An interesting fact related to Wilt's 100-point game:
Wilt scored 100 points on March 2, 1962. On March 7, 1962 the Philadelphia Warriors lost 102-153 (!) to the Celtics which were an elite running team with Bill Russell (arguably the best undersized Center ever) and Bob Cousy. Wilt could definitely be outran, even without the 3pt line in the 60s.

Fwiw, here's the box score from that game.
https://www.proballers.com/basketball/game/486988/boston-celtics-golden-state-warriors-1962-03-07
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#116 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:10 am

murphyslamz wrote:


Make sure to complete roster page
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Re: 2023-2024 mid season draft - Discussion 

Post#117 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:50 pm

murphyslamz wrote:


You have until 24 hours after the playoff thread was made to post your write up or else we will vote on your roster alone

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