Moderators: Snakebites, MadNESS, Fadeaway_J
Square wrote:...
Larry_Russell wrote:...
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.
penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
Larry_Russell wrote:well it was worth the effort of drafting even though I missed my first pick by a bunch.
THought I had a pretty lethal team offensively, but apparently defense does matter when I dont build a good defensive team.
Snakebites wrote:Larry_Russell wrote:well it was worth the effort of drafting even though I missed my first pick by a bunch.
THought I had a pretty lethal team offensively, but apparently defense does matter when I dont build a good defensive team.
Can you think of an example of a team with a defense on this level that saw more success in these games?
Larry_Russell wrote:well it was worth the effort of drafting even though I missed my first pick by a bunch.
THought I had a pretty lethal team offensively, but apparently defense does matter when I dont build a good defensive team.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.
penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
Colbinii wrote:Larry_Russell wrote:well it was worth the effort of drafting even though I missed my first pick by a bunch.
THought I had a pretty lethal team offensively, but apparently defense does matter when I dont build a good defensive team.
Like I said in my post, the Kings were a great team because of their Center play. The offense ran through the Centers as they were exceptional pivot passers and defensively, both Miller and Vlade were good enough to help cover the weaknesses of Peja/Bibby.
Chris Webber simply isn't big enough to play Center, which hurts his offense trying to use his size and strength against real Centers, and defensively he is going to get destroyed on the glass.
Furthermore, 2002 Mike Bibby wasn't even good. Below League Average PER, 0.4 BPM, Negative On/Off and a -15.3 TS+. Compare this to his 2003 or 2004 seasons where Bibby really grew within the Kings core, peaking in 2004 at 19.3 PER, 2.4 BPM and +124 TS+.
Defense always matters in these games, I don't think you need to act like a victim though and just say defense matters for your team only. I literally drafted Shane Battier, Bruce Brown and Kendrick Perkins for my team
Larry_Russell wrote:I drafted Christie, Harper, Andersen. Whats your point there?
Webber
6-10 250 pounds
Amare
6-10 245
Turner
6-11 250
Horford
6-9 240
Camby
6-11 220
Ayton
7-0 250
Perkins
6-9 235
Adams
6-11 265
Obvs Shaq and Sabonis are much bigger men, but they are bigger than about everyone.
Who else on that list is going to punish the size of Webber in the middle?
AS far as pivot passing, I see no reason why Chris could fill that same exact roll, with Peja taking Chris' roll. Im being told that the defense was terrible, that Webb was too small, and that Divac made that team great with his passing in the middle when CWebb averaged 5 assists per game at PF and Vlade had 3 per game at Center. I fail to see how the passing doesnt translate over 1 spot in the modern NBA playstyle.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.
penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
Colbinii wrote:Larry_Russell wrote:I drafted Christie, Harper, Andersen. Whats your point there?
Webber
6-10 250 pounds
Amare
6-10 245
Turner
6-11 250
Horford
6-9 240
Camby
6-11 220
Ayton
7-0 250
Perkins
6-9 235
Adams
6-11 265
Obvs Shaq and Sabonis are much bigger men, but they are bigger than about everyone.
Who else on that list is going to punish the size of Webber in the middle?
Well Adams is going to destroy the glass on both ends in this match-up.
Furthermore, Webber doesn't provide much in terms of rim protection as a Center. He isn't a behemoth taking up space in the paint like a Gasol/Adams/Perkins/Shaq and isn't a spry shot-blocker like Turner or Camby [I don't consider Camby a great defensive player, he was like Myles Turner where he is never going to be argued the best defensive player in an NBA season but is a solid piece, especially in this game next to Kevin Garnett].
I don't really like someone like Webber, Horford or Amar'e playing Center against a team with Peak Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant attacking the rim. That seems like a recipe for disaster.AS far as pivot passing, I see no reason why Chris could fill that same exact roll, with Peja taking Chris' roll. Im being told that the defense was terrible, that Webb was too small, and that Divac made that team great with his passing in the middle when CWebb averaged 5 assists per game at PF and Vlade had 3 per game at Center. I fail to see how the passing doesnt translate over 1 spot in the modern NBA playstyle.
Well for starters, Chris Webber shoots a ton and misses a ton.
As for Assist numbers, maybe you should look at Usage + Assists. Webber was rocking a nearly 30% Usage Rate while the Centers were < 20% Usage.
2002 Divac: 17.9 AST%, 9.2 OREB%, 18.4 USG%
2002 Webber: 21.9 AST%, 7.9 OREB%, 29.0 USG%
At the end of the day I don't value DRTG or DBPM as defensive statistic's for rating defensive players. Individual DRTG on Basketball-Reference's Per 100 section is directly related to a teams Defensive Rating. For example, look at the 2002 Kings, who had a team Defensive Rating of 101.8. All the rotation players are within a few points of this number, ranging from 98 [Webber and Pollard] to 105 [Bibby]. Now, look at the 2023 Kings, a team with a Defensive Rating of 116.8. All of the rotation players are within a few points of this number, ranging from 114 [Davis and Sabonis] to 119 [Davion Mitchell].
So, we have Mike Bibby at 105 and Davion Mitchell at 119. Are you going to tell me, with a straight face, that Mike Bibby wasn't just a better defender than Davion Mitchell, but was 15 points better per 100 possessions? Now, before you answer this, the best defensive players of all-time fall in the +7 to +10 Range defensively. You really think Mike Bibby is better than Davion Mitchell so much so that it dwarfs the difference between say, Kevin Garnett and the average defensive player?
Colbinii wrote:Larry_Russell wrote:well it was worth the effort of drafting even though I missed my first pick by a bunch.
THought I had a pretty lethal team offensively, but apparently defense does matter when I dont build a good defensive team.
Like I said in my post, the Kings were a great team because of their Center play. The offense ran through the Centers as they were exceptional pivot passers and defensively, both Miller and Vlade were good enough to help cover the weaknesses of Peja/Bibby.
Chris Webber simply isn't big enough to play Center, which hurts his offense trying to use his size and strength against real Centers, and defensively he is going to get destroyed on the glass.
Furthermore, 2002 Mike Bibby wasn't even good. Below League Average PER, 0.4 BPM, Negative On/Off and a -15.3 TS+. Compare this to his 2003 or 2004 seasons where Bibby really grew within the Kings core, peaking in 2004 at 19.3 PER, 2.4 BPM and +124 TS+.
Defense always matters in these games, I don't think you need to act like a victim though and just say defense matters for your team only. I literally drafted Shane Battier, Bruce Bowen and Kendrick Perkins for my team
Larry_Russell wrote:
I dont really know on the Davion part. Im not a statistician, but if he wasnt a passable defender on the team, and was a terrible as some claim, how was the team able to be a top defensive team with such a dead weight anchor?
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.
penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
Colbinii wrote:Larry_Russell wrote:
I dont really know on the Davion part. Im not a statistician, but if he wasnt a passable defender on the team, and was a terrible as some claim, how was the team able to be a top defensive team with such a dead weight anchor?
The same reason teams could roll out 2-3 shooters in a line-up and still beat teams. The strategy was archaic, teams didn't take advantages of mismatches and teams misunderstood the value of spacing.
In the modern game, teams would just run Pick and Roll 30 times with Bibby/Peja either in the action of with the plan of the Pick and Roll to get the ball to one of those two defenders.
Team's didn't do that in the early 2000s, where Offensive Ratings were at historic lows, spacing was hard to come by and offensive basketball usually involved a mid-range jump shot as the result instead of a corner 3 or open 3 from the wing.
I do hope you realize the issue when using Individual DRTG when assessing players and comparing them across eras. Rudy Gobert is having his best defensive season of his career and is posting a 104 Individual Drtg. He posted 98 Individual DRTG in his 2nd season in the NBA, but is far better this year than that season.
But, if you insist on using the statistic moving forward in these games, you need to tell everyone you think Mike Bibby is an equal defender to Rudy Gobert.
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