The LeBron Effect

[Lunartic]

I have a few...

2009 Mo Williams
LeBron On: 55.7 eFG%
LeBron Off: 54.5 eFG%

2011 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.7 eFG%, +12.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 50.4 eFG%, +4.6 Net Rating

2012 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.3 eFG%, +11.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 49.4 eFG%, +3.5 Net Rating

2013 Bosh
LeBron On: 54.8 eFG%, +12.8 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 54.0 eFG%, -5.1 Net Rating

2014 Bosh
LeBron On: 58.3 eFG%, +9.9 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 40.2 eFG%, +3.0 Net Rating

Interesting. Where did you find this? I'm curious about Lebron vs others players in terms of "making others better"

I often hear it repeated but I'm curious to what degree. Kind of like Curry's "gravity" - it's repeated but when you look at number of wide open shots generated - they aren't necessarily higher than someone like Harden or Cp3

Cavaliers in 2016: 41.3% of 3's wide open

Warriors in 2016: 39.4% of 3's wide open

Lebron's gravity > Currys

[nolang1]

+/- does not factor in EFG% as far as I know

Nonetheless, I would like to see the data if you know where I can find it

I have a few...

2009 Mo Williams
LeBron On: 55.7 eFG%
LeBron Off: 54.5 eFG%

2011 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.7 eFG%, +12.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 50.4 eFG%, +4.6 Net Rating

2012 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.3 eFG%, +11.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 49.4 eFG%, +3.5 Net Rating

2013 Bosh
LeBron On: 54.8 eFG%, +12.8 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 54.0 eFG%, -5.1 Net Rating

2014 Bosh
LeBron On: 58.3 eFG%, +9.9 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 40.2 eFG%, +3.0 Net Rating

Interesting. Where did you find this? I'm curious about Lebron vs others players in terms of "making others better"

I often hear it repeated but I'm curious to what degree. Kind of like Curry's "gravity" - it's repeated but when you look at number of wide open shots generated - they aren't necessarily higher than someone like Harden or Cp3

Lol I'm not sure where you're going with this - are you trying to say that no players are capable of making their teammates better? The obvious point is that if he's in the conversation with players like Curry, Harden, or Paul in terms of passing or creating space for teammates on offense while also being 6'9" and able to cover all 5 positions defensively, then obviously he makes his teammates better even if you just decide to ignore on-off stats that say that Lebron's teammates tend to score much less efficiently when he's not on the court with them.

You could also go a step further and say that efg% is a particularly bad way to look at it when much of LeBron's offensive value is that he's able to make accurate passes others can't and therefore make limited offensive players into more high-volume options. One particularly obvious example would be when Kyle Korver was traded to the Cavs in 2016 and went from a 40.9% three-point shooter on 6.4 attempts per 40 (and 39.8% on 6 attempts per 40 the season before) with the Hawks to a 48.5% three-point shooter on 8.4 attempts per 40 with Cleveland.

[Lunartic]

I have a few...

2009 Mo Williams
LeBron On: 55.7 eFG%
LeBron Off: 54.5 eFG%

2011 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.7 eFG%, +12.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 50.4 eFG%, +4.6 Net Rating

2012 Bosh
LeBron On: 49.3 eFG%, +11.5 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 49.4 eFG%, +3.5 Net Rating

2013 Bosh
LeBron On: 54.8 eFG%, +12.8 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 54.0 eFG%, -5.1 Net Rating

2014 Bosh
LeBron On: 58.3 eFG%, +9.9 Net Rating
LeBron Off: 40.2 eFG%, +3.0 Net Rating

Interesting. Where did you find this? I'm curious about Lebron vs others players in terms of "making others better"

I often hear it repeated but I'm curious to what degree. Kind of like Curry's "gravity" - it's repeated but when you look at number of wide open shots generated - they aren't necessarily higher than someone like Harden or Cp3

Lol I'm not sure where you're going with this - are you trying to say that no players are capable of making their teammates better? The obvious point is that if he's in the conversation with players like Curry, Harden, or Paul in terms of passing or creating space for teammates on offense while also being 6'9" and able to cover all 5 positions defensively, then obviously he makes his teammates better even if you just decide to ignore on-off stats that say that Lebron's teammates tend to score much less efficiently when he's not on the court with them.

You could also go a step further and say that efg% is a particularly bad way to look at it when much of LeBron's offensive value is that he's able to make accurate passes others can't and therefore make limited offensive players into more high-volume options. One particularly obvious example would be when Kyle Korver was traded to the Cavs in 2016 and went from a 40.9% three-point shooter on 6.4 attempts per 40 (and 39.8% on 6 attempts per 40 the season before) with the Hawks to a 48.5% three-point shooter on 8.4 attempts per 40 with Cleveland.

I'm not going anywhere with it. I'm merely wondering if there is a good stat that isolates the "lebron effect" on his teammates in terms of "making them better"

What you suggested is the exact opposite of what I'm questioning. It's very apparent and obvious that some NBA players can improve the games of others generally it's via play-making, getting teammates easier shots, putting them in positions to finish plays, etc. Steven Adams made players like Westbrook appear better by allow him to grab easy rebounds.

I can't think of a metric in which you can determine if someone is "made better" other than their efficiency improving. I'm open to ideas.

I used EFG% because FG% doesn't measure 3p% and TS% takes into account FT% which isn't effected by anyone but the shooter.
I'm fine with taking into account players that increase their teammates volume as well, there's no agenda here, I'm genuinely curious how we can quantify the specific changes in efficiency/volume when certain star players are on the floor.

[nolang1]

Interesting. Where did you find this? I'm curious about Lebron vs others players in terms of "making others better"

I often hear it repeated but I'm curious to what degree. Kind of like Curry's "gravity" - it's repeated but when you look at number of wide open shots generated - they aren't necessarily higher than someone like Harden or Cp3

Lol I'm not sure where you're going with this - are you trying to say that no players are capable of making their teammates better? The obvious point is that if he's in the conversation with players like Curry, Harden, or Paul in terms of passing or creating space for teammates on offense while also being 6'9" and able to cover all 5 positions defensively, then obviously he makes his teammates better even if you just decide to ignore on-off stats that say that Lebron's teammates tend to score much less efficiently when he's not on the court with them.

You could also go a step further and say that efg% is a particularly bad way to look at it when much of LeBron's offensive value is that he's able to make accurate passes others can't and therefore make limited offensive players into more high-volume options. One particularly obvious example would be when Kyle Korver was traded to the Cavs in 2016 and went from a 40.9% three-point shooter on 6.4 attempts per 40 (and 39.8% on 6 attempts per 40 the season before) with the Hawks to a 48.5% three-point shooter on 8.4 attempts per 40 with Cleveland.

I'm not going anywhere with it. I'm merely wondering if there is a good stat that isolates the "lebron effect" on his teammates in terms of "making them better"

What you suggested is the exact opposite of what I'm questioning. It's very apparent and obvious that some NBA players can improve the games of others generally it's via play-making, getting teammates easier shots, putting them in positions to finish plays, etc. Steven Adams made players like Westbrook appear better by allow him to grab easy rebounds.

I can't think of a metric in which you can determine if someone is "made better" other than their efficiency improving. I'm open to ideas.

I used EFG% because FG% doesn't measure 3p% and TS% takes into account FT% which isn't effected by anyone but the shooter.
I'm fine with taking into account players that increase their teammates volume as well, there's no agenda here, I'm genuinely curious how we can quantify the specific changes in efficiency/volume when certain star players are on the floor.

And again, your interest in this is obviously pretty fake if you haven't looked into even the most rudimentary on-off stats before. You're actively ignoring stats like RPM, RAPM, PIPM, and RAPTOR that have LeBron at or near the top of the league the past few years even when he's clearly been even better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

[Lunartic]

Lol I'm not sure where you're going with this - are you trying to say that no players are capable of making their teammates better? The obvious point is that if he's in the conversation with players like Curry, Harden, or Paul in terms of passing or creating space for teammates on offense while also being 6'9" and able to cover all 5 positions defensively, then obviously he makes his teammates better even if you just decide to ignore on-off stats that say that Lebron's teammates tend to score much less efficiently when he's not on the court with them.

You could also go a step further and say that efg% is a particularly bad way to look at it when much of LeBron's offensive value is that he's able to make accurate passes others can't and therefore make limited offensive players into more high-volume options. One particularly obvious example would be when Kyle Korver was traded to the Cavs in 2016 and went from a 40.9% three-point shooter on 6.4 attempts per 40 (and 39.8% on 6 attempts per 40 the season before) with the Hawks to a 48.5% three-point shooter on 8.4 attempts per 40 with Cleveland.

I'm not going anywhere with it. I'm merely wondering if there is a good stat that isolates the "lebron effect" on his teammates in terms of "making them better"

What you suggested is the exact opposite of what I'm questioning. It's very apparent and obvious that some NBA players can improve the games of others generally it's via play-making, getting teammates easier shots, putting them in positions to finish plays, etc. Steven Adams made players like Westbrook appear better by allow him to grab easy rebounds.

I can't think of a metric in which you can determine if someone is "made better" other than their efficiency improving. I'm open to ideas.

I used EFG% because FG% doesn't measure 3p% and TS% takes into account FT% which isn't effected by anyone but the shooter.
I'm fine with taking into account players that increase their teammates volume as well, there's no agenda here, I'm genuinely curious how we can quantify the specific changes in efficiency/volume when certain star players are on the floor.

And again, your interest in this is obviously pretty fake if you haven't looked into even the most rudimentary on-off stats before. You're actively ignoring stats like RPM, RAPM, PIPM, and RAPTOR that have LeBron at or near the top of the league the past few years even when he's clearly been even better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

On/off stats are wide ranging and don't actually posit anything concerning individual players improvement in terms of shooting/scoring. They indicate team shifts with certain players injected into the lineup. I want data concerning individual players EFG%/FG% increasing/decreasing when certain players are on the court.

RAPTOR/RPM/PIPM are individual stats and not relevant here. I'm aware that Lebron is a top-tier player, he's the best in the game and has been for a decade. We aren't discussing that.

Your defensiveness and aggressive tone are useless to me and this discussion.

[nolang1]

I'm not going anywhere with it. I'm merely wondering if there is a good stat that isolates the "lebron effect" on his teammates in terms of "making them better"

What you suggested is the exact opposite of what I'm questioning. It's very apparent and obvious that some NBA players can improve the games of others generally it's via play-making, getting teammates easier shots, putting them in positions to finish plays, etc. Steven Adams made players like Westbrook appear better by allow him to grab easy rebounds.

I can't think of a metric in which you can determine if someone is "made better" other than their efficiency improving. I'm open to ideas.

I used EFG% because FG% doesn't measure 3p% and TS% takes into account FT% which isn't effected by anyone but the shooter.
I'm fine with taking into account players that increase their teammates volume as well, there's no agenda here, I'm genuinely curious how we can quantify the specific changes in efficiency/volume when certain star players are on the floor.

And again, your interest in this is obviously pretty fake if you haven't looked into even the most rudimentary on-off stats before. You're actively ignoring stats like RPM, RAPM, PIPM, and RAPTOR that have LeBron at or near the top of the league the past few years even when he's clearly been even better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

On/off stats are wide ranging and don't actually posit anything concerning individual players improvement in terms of shooting/scoring. They indicate team shifts with certain players injected into the lineup. I want data concerning individual players EFG%/FG% increasing/decreasing when certain players are on the court.

RAPTOR/RPM/PIPM are individual stats and not relevant here. I'm aware that Lebron is a top-tier player, he's the best in the game and has been for a decade. We aren't discussing that.

Your defensiveness and aggressive tone are useless to me and this discussion.

On-off stats already look at the efficiency of every combination of players and weigh them by possessions. So I guess what you're saying is you're looking for more cherry-picked examples of players doing worse when LeBron plays with them even though the aggregate trend is the exact opposite. If you're saying he's been the best player in a league for a decade and has only led the league in scoring once, wouldn't it already be fairly obvious that his passing/ability to make his teammates better is playing a huge part in that?