"Selfish" NBA action and stats to measure them?

LesGrossman · Post #1 » by **LesGrossman** » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:43 pm

I am looking for incidence of selfishness in the NBA game. Meaning situations where individual players have two option - a "team" option and a "me" option. Bonus points for stats taht track those optinos. Does anyone have ideas on this? Any input is welcome.

Post #2 » by **ijspeelman** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:24 am

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2194359&p=99152325&hilit=block#p99152325

LesGrossman · Post #3 » by **LesGrossman** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:32 pm

ijspeelman wrote:https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2194359&p=99152325&hilit=block#p99152325

I'm also thinking about subtle things like refusing to take a long last second shot...

Post #4 » by **ijspeelman** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:07 pm

LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2194359&p=99152325&hilit=block#p99152325

I'm also thinking about subtle things like refusing to take a long last second shot...

I doubt there is any way to track this with data available, but when in garbage time an established player passes to a lesser player at the end of the shotclock so they get the turnover instead of themselves.

LesGrossman · Post #5 » by **LesGrossman** » Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:11 am

ijspeelman wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2194359&p=99152325&hilit=block#p99152325

I'm also thinking about subtle things like refusing to take a long last second shot...

I doubt there is any way to track this with data available, but when in garbage time an established player passes to a lesser player at the end of the shotclock so they get the turnover instead of themselves.

Wow, thats a good one, are those still scored that way

LesGrossman · Post #6 » by **LesGrossman** » Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:28 pm

ijspeelman wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2194359&p=99152325&hilit=block#p99152325

I'm also thinking about subtle things like refusing to take a long last second shot...

I doubt there is any way to track this with data available, but when in garbage time an established player passes to a lesser player at the end of the shotclock so they get the turnover instead of themselves.

Topic is gaining momentum. I've found papers on selfishness vs. team play and the impact on contract negotiations but they mostly use the stats that are conveniently available, i.e. assists / FG ratio. I'm not sure this is really solid enough though. Do you have an idea how to gather data on the end of quarter long shot vs. letting the clock run out? I would need significant amount of data, preferrably an entire season including playoffs but its quite a task to watch >5000 quarter ends...

Post #7 » by **ijspeelman** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:21 am

LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:I'm also thinking about subtle things like refusing to take a long last second shot...

I doubt there is any way to track this with data available, but when in garbage time an established player passes to a lesser player at the end of the shotclock so they get the turnover instead of themselves.

Topic is gaining momentum. I've found papers on selfishness vs. team play and the impact on contract negotiations but they mostly use the stats that are conveniently available, i.e. assists / FG ratio. I'm not sure this is really solid enough though. Do you have an idea how to gather data on the end of quarter long shot vs. letting the clock run out? I would need significant amount of data, preferrably an entire season including playoffs but its quite a task to watch >5000 quarter ends...

Apparently, shot clock turnovers do not count towards individuals at all anymore. I was checking to play by play of https://www.nba.com/game/cle-vs-nop-0022200842/box-score?latest=1&period=All to see what they coded the end of the game game shot clock TO as and it is listed as "(Team) Turnover: Shot Clock" rather than something like "(Player) (Reason) Turnover". I looked back at other shot clock violations in that game that mattered and they are coded the same way and don't count against the players.

LesGrossman · Post #8 » by **LesGrossman** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:36 am

ijspeelman wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
I doubt there is any way to track this with data available, but when in garbage time an established player passes to a lesser player at the end of the shotclock so they get the turnover instead of themselves.

Topic is gaining momentum. I've found papers on selfishness vs. team play and the impact on contract negotiations but they mostly use the stats that are conveniently available, i.e. assists / FG ratio. I'm not sure this is really solid enough though. Do you have an idea how to gather data on the end of quarter long shot vs. letting the clock run out? I would need significant amount of data, preferrably an entire season including playoffs but its quite a task to watch >5000 quarter ends...

Apparently, shot clock turnovers do not count towards individuals at all anymore. I was checking to play by play of https://www.nba.com/game/cle-vs-nop-0022200842/box-score?latest=1&period=All to see what they coded the end of the game game shot clock TO as and it is listed as "(Team) Turnover: Shot Clock" rather than something like "(Player) (Reason) Turnover". I looked back at other shot clock violations in that game that mattered and they are coded the same way and don't count against the players.

Yeah thats the reason why it can be interpreted as incidence of "egoism" - because a missed long shot would count against his individual statistics whereas the shot clock violation / end of quarter doesnt. Just wondering how to scan through the games and figure out wether the quarter ended in a regular manner or not. Probably will have to go through the games by hand...

Post #9 » by **ijspeelman** » Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:16 pm

LesGrossman wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:Topic is gaining momentum. I've found papers on selfishness vs. team play and the impact on contract negotiations but they mostly use the stats that are conveniently available, i.e. assists / FG ratio. I'm not sure this is really solid enough though. Do you have an idea how to gather data on the end of quarter long shot vs. letting the clock run out? I would need significant amount of data, preferrably an entire season including playoffs but its quite a task to watch >5000 quarter ends...

Apparently, shot clock turnovers do not count towards individuals at all anymore. I was checking to play by play of https://www.nba.com/game/cle-vs-nop-0022200842/box-score?latest=1&period=All to see what they coded the end of the game game shot clock TO as and it is listed as "(Team) Turnover: Shot Clock" rather than something like "(Player) (Reason) Turnover". I looked back at other shot clock violations in that game that mattered and they are coded the same way and don't count against the players.

Yeah thats the reason why it can be interpreted as incidence of "egoism" - because a missed long shot would count against his individual statistics whereas the shot clock violation / end of quarter doesnt. Just wondering how to scan through the games and figure out wether the quarter ended in a regular manner or not. Probably will have to go through the games by hand...

IDK if you code, but you could specifically find the coding listed in the play-by-play data for this happening under a minute. You would probably have to review each one to see if the specific event you want happened though.