Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[nate33]

Unless I'm misinterpreting the information, those numbers confirm what I was thinking. At the end of 2014, we would have around 40 mil in guaranteed contracts. At that point we could decide to continue to build around those guys (Singleton, Seraphin, Booker, Crawford) or renounce them all and go into that offseason with 15-18 mil in space and an expiring 13 mil contract in Nene. I see that as maximum flexibility

While that sounds good when you say it, I think it's highly unlikely that Seraphin would be considered expendable for cap flexibility. We're talking about a team that has only a 32-year Nene at center and no backup. Seraphin will be retained unless there is a Dwight Howard type of free agent available (and even then, Seraphin's rights will probably be more valuable in a S&T than raw cap space). For maximum flexibility, let's assume Crawford, Singleton and Booker will be dumped, but not Seraphin.

So under the status quo, we will have $9M in cap room in 2014, maybe $10-11 million if there are larger cap increases and/or we land later picks with smaller rookie salaries.

Under the Ryan Anderson scenario, we would have Ryan Anderson plus about $8M in cap room in 2013 (when Lewis' buyout comes off the books but before Wall and Seraphin must be extended).

The Ryan Anderson scenario looks better to me, assuming Anderson isn't totally useless without Howard alongside him.

[Ruzious]

I'm 99% sure that the Nets aren't going to use cap space to (maybe) make the Howard trade, but rather are using bird rights on Blook Ropez and Mr.Kardashian.

Obviously it's the July Bermuda triangle time on cap space, but I don't see how they aren't tapped out once you account for the incoming guys and the cap holds.

Actually, that's 99.9% sure if I'm remembering correctly and they're using the MLE on that Euro forward.

You're 100.1% correct. I'm recently back from vacation and just catching up on all of the Nets' moves. What they are doing is the definition of going all in - and I congratulate them for it. They've made some mistakes, but they might overcome them because they have a vision to become a championship contender - rather than a contender for the 8th playoff spot in their conference.

[LyricalRico]

^ Well, it's probably somewhat easier to have a "vision" when the top center in the league says "I only want to play for you".

[Ruzious]

^ Well, it's probably somewhat easier to have a "vision" when the top center in the league says "I only want to play for you".

Part of that is communication. And if a Russian can do that in the US, I would hope that Ted the Communicator could.

Who wouldn't want to play in... Brooklyn?

[LyricalRico]

^ Also, don't forget that the original "vision" for the Nets was to get in on the LeBron James sweepstakes. It was only after striking out there that they decided to make an unexpected move on Deron Williams. Then they had to trade for and overpay Wallace, plus take on the worst contract in the NBA (Joe Johnson) just to get Williams to stay. That doesn't scream "vision" to me.

Yes, adding Howard to that would make them a contender. But I don't think that this is what they saw a couple years ago when they were clearing space for LeBron. And I don't think anybody would have faulted them for acquring a few overpaid vets to help them at least compete for the playoffs the last couple years while they waited for another opportunity to present itself.

[sashae]

I have to admit, as much as the "slow and patient" model of building a team seems appealing, the Nets are going to be a LOT more interesting to watch next year if they swing this triumverate in Brooklyn, Joe Johnson being overpaid or not.

[fishercob]

^ Well, it's probably somewhat easier to have a "vision" when the top center in the league says "I only want to play for you".

Who wouldn't want to play in... Brooklyn?

Is that a joke?

[Ruzious]

^ Also, don't forget that the original "vision" for the Nets was to get in on the LeBron James sweepstakes. It was only after striking out there that they decided to make an unexpected move on Deron Williams. Then they had to trade for and overpay Wallace, plus take on the worst contract in the NBA (Joe Johnson) just to get Williams to stay. That doesn't scream "vision" to me.

Yes, adding Howard to that would make them a contender. But I don't think that this is what they saw a couple years ago when they were clearing space for LeBron. And I don't think anybody would have faulted them for acquring a few overpaid vets to help them at least compete for the playoffs the last couple years while they waited for another opportunity to present itself.

Really? You don't think going after Lebron James shows that they were trying to build a championship team? And going after Deron Williams wasn't just to go after Deron Williams. It was to help attract someone like... say... I dunno... Dwight S Howard. And while I thought the Wallace debacle was foolish at best, it could work out because they really are trying to build a championship contender. I think you're staring at a bunch of trees and don't notice there's a forest - much like your avatar.

[Ruzious]

^ Well, it's probably somewhat easier to have a "vision" when the top center in the league says "I only want to play for you".

Who wouldn't want to play in... Brooklyn?

Is that a joke?

I was all out of green ink when I wrote it.

[nate33]

I'm going to lock this thread. I don't really see a need to make a Part II so I won't do so. If somebody else wants to start a second thread to continue to look at wouldda shouldda couldda's, I won't stop them.

[LyricalRico]

Ruz, every team would say that they are trying to build a contender. What I was trying to say is that the term "vision" seems to mean (to me anyway) that the current product is what they had in mind all along and I don't think that's the case. What Pat Riley did in Miami was the execution of a vision, and I think that's very different from what is happening in NJ/Brooklyn.

If you want to say that there are times when a team with cap space can get lucky and be in the right place at the right time to add multiple stars in quick succession - sure, I'll agree with you. But there's enough of an element of chance that I would say that the term "vision" doesn't apply. I honestly don't think it's accurate to say that Williams/Wallace/Johnson/Howard is the end of a grand vision by the Nets that they executed just the way they planned it from the start (like Pat Riley did with the Heat).

I mean, where was the vision when they were giving out overpriced contracts to guys like Morrow, Farmar, Petro, Outlaw, etc? Were they saying "in a couple years we can amnesty Outlaw, trade Farmar+Petro+Morrow for Joe Johnson, and then go after Dwight Howard"? I doubt it. I also doubt that people were so complimentary about the Nets having "vision" while those moves were being made.

[gesa2]

it just seems like a long time since I got lucky

[Zonkerbl]

I'm curious where we stand on that now. Iirc, the main criticism of that trade was that we were overpaying both players and could have gotten better players with that money through free agency (or something like that).

Now here we are wondering if we should pay Ariza what he is going to be offered based off of last year's production. We have the same question about Gortat, who we had to give up a first rounder for because of the desperate need to replace Okafor's production.

It's an impossible question to answer, but could we have done any better? Who was signed for the amount of cap money we had available who have produced as much or more than Ariza+Gortat?

No snark, I'm genuinely curious. Maybe EG is a mad genius after all?

[pineappleheadindc]

Okariza thread here: viewtopic.php?t=1188356&f=35

Don't know why it's locked, but at least you can read the comments. I'll dig back into the thread's history and try to read why it was locked later on today.

Edited to add:

I unlocked the thread and bumped it to the top. It was originally locked by Nate when it hit 100 pages. But since RealGM expanded to 20 posts per page (versus the original 15), the Okariza thread is now only 75 pages long.

merging this now.

[Zonkerbl]

Hm, so there must be a "Oakariza: Part ii: The Quickening" thread somewhere.

It's where Okafor and Ariza have a lovechild and it comes out carrying a big hammer.

[Zonkerbl]

I made a post on the Discussing Other Teams thread, but I'll expand here. First of all, I'm assuming that under the Ryan Anderson scenario, we would have waived Lewis and traded Booker for Ryan Anderson. I'm also assuming that we would have utilized our #32 pick for a warm body since we would have more roster spots

So under the current scenario we have:

PG Wall/Mack
SG Beal/Crawford
SF Ariza/Singleton
PF Nene/Vesely/Booker
C Okafor/Seraphin/Blatche

We have no cap room for the foreseeable future assuming Wall and Seraphin are retained for market value in 2014.

Under the Ryan Anderson Hypothetical, our lineup would be:

PG Wall/Mack
SG Beal/Crawford/M.Denmon
SF C.Singleton/Q.Miller
PF Anderson/Vesely
C Nene/Seraphin/Blatche

We would have about $8M in cap room next year when Lewis' buyout comes off the books (assuming we amnesty Blatche as well). We also have a roster spot to convince J.Singleton to play with us as a 5th big. The SF position is horribly weak and we would have relinquished the MLE to get the cap room to absorb Anderson, but the rest of the roster is pretty good and very complementary to Wall.

God, when I saw Singleton starting at the 3 I threw up in my mouth a little.

[TGW]

Still wouldn't have done it. Ariza, Okafor, and Gortat are all middling players that have been severely overpaid in their respective careers. They are okay as stopgaps, but they aren't players you build around or trade for unless your giving back an asset with little to no value. To me, Lewis' contract was a more valuable commodity than Ariza and Okafor.

[TGW]

God, when I saw Singleton starting at the 3 I threw up in my mouth a little.

Singleton is not the problem...the moron who picked him is. There were several players on the board that were better choices and that's the guy they picked. That whole draft was a debacle.

[nate33]

I made a post on the Discussing Other Teams thread, but I'll expand here. First of all, I'm assuming that under the Ryan Anderson scenario, we would have waived Lewis and traded Booker for Ryan Anderson. I'm also assuming that we would have utilized our #32 pick for a warm body since we would have more roster spots

So under the current scenario we have:

PG Wall/Mack
SG Beal/Crawford
SF Ariza/Singleton
PF Nene/Vesely/Booker
C Okafor/Seraphin/Blatche

We have no cap room for the foreseeable future assuming Wall and Seraphin are retained for market value in 2014.

Under the Ryan Anderson Hypothetical, our lineup would be:

PG Wall/Mack
SG Beal/Crawford/M.Denmon
SF C.Singleton/Q.Miller
PF Anderson/Vesely
C Nene/Seraphin/Blatche

We would have about $8M in cap room next year when Lewis' buyout comes off the books (assuming we amnesty Blatche as well). We also have a roster spot to convince J.Singleton to play with us as a 5th big. The SF position is horribly weak and we would have relinquished the MLE to get the cap room to absorb Anderson, but the rest of the roster is pretty good and very complementary to Wall.

God, when I saw Singleton starting at the 3 I threw up in my mouth a little.

As it turned out, Webster was available for the vet minimum and we could have picked him up - bumping Singleton to the bench and Miller to oblivion.

Last year, we would have drafted Porter to fill the SF position. Who knows what we could have done with the $8M in cap room. Maybe we could have traded it plus the 2014 pick (used for Gortat) for Asik. This past season, we could have had the following roster:

Wall/Mack
Beal/Crawford
Webster/Porter
Anderson/Singleton
Asik/Nene

Much younger and cheaper.

[Zonkerbl]

Still wouldn't have done it. Ariza, Okafor, and Gortat are all middling players that have been severely overpaid in their respective careers. They are okay as stopgaps, but they aren't players you build around or trade for unless your giving back an asset with little to no value. To me, Lewis' contract was a more valuable commodity than Ariza and Okafor.

Ok but that's not good enough any more because we actually know who was signed for how much and we know how productive those players have been.

That's my question -- I mean, presumably by now we would have had to use that cap space on *somebody*. With perfect hindsight, what is the best production we could have gotten for that money?