Statistical Analysis of Post-Trade Team: There is Hope!

[WizarDynasty]

you need to practice your post moves against 7 footers standing reach because the height of rim never changes.
A center's post moves have to be perfected against the standing reach of another 7 footer --along with a 270 lb frame because that what he has to face in game time situations each night. If you can't mimic that in practice you are basically wasting your time.

See even i have compassion.

[montestewart]

you need to practice your post moves against 7 footers standing reach because the height of rim never changes.
A center's post moves have to be perfected against the standing reach of another 7 footer --along with a 270 lb frame because that what he has to face in game time situations each night. If you can't mimic that in practice you are basically wasting your time.

See even i have compassion.

How about if he works with Unseld? Unseld's 6'6" (generously) but he regularly held his own against 7 footers, essentially playing 6 inches taller than he was. He should be able to teach McGee to add 6 inches to his own frame (and get a big butt too), thus making McGee perhaps the 3rd tallest player in NBA history, after Muresan and Bol, and Muresan, can of course, take McGee to court and make him prove the case of his new found height against a true seven-and-a-half footer.

Anybody know where Muresan is this year? I haven't seen him at games.

[fugop]

The board is much more pleasant with generous use of ignore functionality.

[doclinkin]

you use the words---Gene Banks "knows how to execute".

i use the words "Can Gene Banks successfully execute what he is teaching against a 7 footer?"
If the answer is NO..then he is a fraud.

Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you can actually do it. Our bigs need a coach that actually do it...McHale, Hakeem, Abdul Jabar hopefully that clears things up for you.

i'm utterly conscious of the fact that i'm responding, and hating myself for it.

There is no difference between post moves for someone who's 4 feet tall and someone who's 8 feet tall. the mechanics are exactly the same. exactly. Why do our big coaches have to be HOFers? kareem is not going to tell Mcgee anything different what gene banks will tell him, or really you or me. you've mentioned drop steps, up and unders, pump fakes, etc. THAT IS IT. THAT IS THE EXTENT OF BASKETBALL KNOWLEDGE THAT EXISTS ON THIS SUBJECT.

you keep saying "against a 7 footer"... why? as long as i can beat every other guy who's 5'10 out there with my post moves, and mcgee copies my moves? why can't he apply those moves against every other 7 footer out there? why are you arbitrarily declaring a chasm of technical intransitivity between the heights?

Well the mechanics are somewhat different, but the basics remain the same. The angle of the arc will need adjusting, the grip and finger roll will alter. That said, what's goofiest about the Wiz'Nasty rant is that his boy Blatche credits Sam Cassell for teaching moves that improved his post game last year. You know, Sammy, the 6'3" guard.

[Zonkerbl]

damn Nate, who peed in your lemonade?

McGee is coordinated, is skilled around the basket, has a finger roll as well as a sky hook and a decent jumper. He's got some tools, you make him sound like Kwame and he's not.

He doesn't have the strength to overwhelm people in the post and force them to foul him, that's for sure. He doesn't have any footwork to speak of or any indication that he's got the foot-to-eye coordination to develop it.

Look, you've gotta walk before you can run. First McGee needs to develop enough strength so he doesn't get overwhelmed himself on defense. Then you can talk about using that strength to steamroll other people. He's not there yet, and if he doesn't get good nutritional/workout advice he may never be.

Nivek and nate, I think iterations--that is, attempts without scolding or benching and perhaps with even a bit of encouragement are what Javale needs.

You guys love Flip, but IMO the 23-year old player has been a better player this season than the fifty-something year-old coach has been as a coach. Javale's done a pretty good job of doing what Flip has asked him to do. His defense and rebounding are damatically improved. As instructed, McGee's shot less. Javale intimidates at times. He runs the court well. His stamina seems to be no longer an issue.

What ghe Wizards should do is run two or three plays a half just for Javale. Zonker is correct about what McGee can do. Those moves do not involve strength or power, but rather fluid movement and timing. I think just having him score puts a world of pressure on opponents. McGee runs well and should get more opportunities in transition.

Remember: Javale once had 25 points and 15 rebounds in under 30 minutes off the bench. He and Kevin McHale (who did so in 1984) are the only guys to do that. McGee CAN score. Those who don't think so are IMO wrong. I think every shot he takes is rushed or forced because McGee has no support from Saunders, and he usually goes straight to the bench first shot he misses.

I think baby steps taken in the form of five plays a game should be called for Javale.

Why thank you ccj!

I'll take it one further and say if the staff were working with Javale to perfect his finger roll, sky hook, and jumper -- instead of screaming at him to stop shooting -- the shots he takes would be less rushed or forced. The staff has to tell him -- take that shot. That's a good shot.

Although maybe they are already. It just seems that way to me from the peanut gallery.

[Ruzious]

damn Nate, who peed in your lemonade?

McGee is coordinated, is skilled around the basket, has a finger roll as well as a sky hook and a decent jumper. He's got some tools, you make him sound like Kwame and he's not.

He doesn't have the strength to overwhelm people in the post and force them to foul him, that's for sure. He doesn't have any footwork to speak of or any indication that he's got the foot-to-eye coordination to develop it.

Look, you've gotta walk before you can run. First McGee needs to develop enough strength so he doesn't get overwhelmed himself on defense. Then you can talk about using that strength to steamroll other people. He's not there yet, and if he doesn't get good nutritional/workout advice he may never be.

Nivek and nate, I think iterations--that is, attempts without scolding or benching and perhaps with even a bit of encouragement are what Javale needs.

You guys love Flip, but IMO the 23-year old player has been a better player this season than the fifty-something year-old coach has been as a coach. Javale's done a pretty good job of doing what Flip has asked him to do. His defense and rebounding are damatically improved. As instructed, McGee's shot less. Javale intimidates at times. He runs the court well. His stamina seems to be no longer an issue.

What ghe Wizards should do is run two or three plays a half just for Javale. Zonker is correct about what McGee can do. Those moves do not involve strength or power, but rather fluid movement and timing. I think just having him score puts a world of pressure on opponents. McGee runs well and should get more opportunities in transition.

Remember: Javale once had 25 points and 15 rebounds in under 30 minutes off the bench. He and Kevin McHale (who did so in 1984) are the only guys to do that. McGee CAN score. Those who don't think so are IMO wrong. I think every shot he takes is rushed or forced because McGee has no support from Saunders, and he usually goes straight to the bench first shot he misses.

I think baby steps taken in the form of five plays a game should be called for Javale.

We should all throw lollipops on the court after every good offensive play McGee makes. Have a stoppage in play to show our appreciation.

And do the same after every bad play - to show encouragement. Maybe when he's 30, we can stop with that part. He'll maybe be old enough then to understand that the world can be cruel and doesn't always reward ineptitude. Actually, when he's 30, we should cut him. He would no longer be able to identify with the next set of challenging young jewels on the team.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Or, you should patiently wait for his game to mature. He's 2 1/2 years younger than Nick Young and already a more coveted players.

It makes no sense how little patience Flip and others have with a player who is just turning 23 years old.

[Nivek]

WizDynasty: The criteria you have for selecting a mentor is absurdly limiting. Joe Bugel wasn't a Hall of Fame offensive lineman, but he was one of the best offensive line coaches in the league. Gary Kubiak was a crappy NFL QB, but a first-rate QB coach. Phil Jackson was a mediocre NBA player, but he's the best coach who ever lived. Buzz Braman never attempted a shot in the NBA, but he's probably the best shooting guru around.

Fact is, often times the best players do not make good coaches. That's because the best players often don't fully understand how they do it -- they just do it. The best coaches are the ones who can break the game down and effectively communicate to the player how to get better.

And, by the way, the Wizards did have a former elite post player on their coaching staff a few years back. Patrick Ewing was on staff to tutor the bigs. Even with the tutelage of Ewing, Haywood never developed a good post game, Etan was never more than a show pony, and Kwame never developed at all.

[Zonkerbl]

Yeah, Bob Knight barely played at Ohio State and is arguably one of the best teachers of basketball, ever. It's your ability to communicate that matters, not your playing ability.

[Nivek]

CCJ: You seem to think some of us "love" Flip. Speaking for myself, I don't love him. What I'm reacting to are the sweeping pronouncements and cries for his job based on specious reasoning and insufficient evidence.

[montestewart]

^
Same here. Saunders might not be the right coach for this crew, regardless of his track record, and I don't understand some of his in-game decisions (and I don't like the 3-guard looks, though I can understand why he might try it sometimes). I'm not against changing coaches. I'm just not sure a midseason change is called for at this point, and I think Saunders has tried to do some good things.

[Nivek]

Was going to edit, but montestewart agreed so I didn't want add. My thoughts on Flip are that he's a good coach, and that he's well-suited to coach this team with this collection of players. I see no reason to fire him.

That said, when the team hired Flip, I had hoped they'd pick Dave Joerger. If I thought a different coach could transmogrify this group into a winner, I'd support that change in a second. But, when I assess the players on the roster, I know that no coach is going to make a difference with this group.

[WizarDynasty]

And, by the way, the Wizards did have a former elite post player on their coaching staff a few years back. Patrick Ewing was on staff to tutor the bigs. Even with the tutelage of Ewing, Haywood never developed a good post game, Etan was never more than a show pony, and Kwame never developed at all.

We have outstanding young bigs bursting with offensive potential. Ewing would turn these kids into allstars.

Kwame, Haywood, and Etan had close to zero upside offensively due to poor coordination. Our young bigs have elite raw coordination that just needs to be honed by an experienced 7 footer with proven allstar post mechanics that they can see day to day with their own eyes.

We need a coach that can teach by example the proper angles on shots from the post that our players need in order to succeed against a 7 footer in real game time.

Post footwork is something that you imitate, you don't explain post footwork, and the angles successful against a 6-7 standing reach and force used against 215lb frame won't work for the angles against a 7-0 standing reach and 270lb frame which is what the players see in real games.

AGain some of you keep bringing up coaches that were great but couldn't demonstrate what they taught.
Our players have specialized area of basketball they need coaching in. Flip is not an expert at post footwork. Flip might be an overall good coach but he doesn't specialize in post footwork against 7 footers with 270lb frame.

We have a special area that we need a qualified expert to quickly accelerate our young bigs growth. Flip is general practictioner Doctor--he knows a little bit about everything but he surely wasn't well known for his ability to greatly improve his young bigs post foot work. We need a proven expert that has successfully improved young big nba players post footwork and shot angles in the post. it's a specialized coaching area and there aren't many coaches that have a strong resume in this particular area. Our team has to pay a premium since there aren't many coaches around that have a strong resume in the particular need that we have. in the longterm, paying that premium will pay for it since in longterm success playoff revenue, and increased fan base across the nation because of the continued success.

Gene does not have a strong resume of successfully working with young nba bigs and transforming their footwork from mediocre to elite. He doesn't have a strong resume of improving a young nba bigman ability to draw fouls in the post.

We have special requirement that we need our bigman coach to fulfill and there are only a handful of qualified player coaches that have resumes that showed that either they have experience improving young nba bigman post footwork to elite...or they themselves have demonstrated elite nba post footwork against 7 footers with a 270lb frame.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ: You seem to think some of us "love" Flip. Speaking for myself, I don't love him. What I'm reacting to are the sweeping pronouncements and cries for his job based on specious reasoning and insufficient evidence.

I don't have any means to quantify how much better the record of the Wizards would be if Nick had been SG for 35 minutes and if McGee played 35 minutes at C. Specious reasoning plus observation gives birth to theory. My theory is not playing McGee enough minutes is one reason Flip has done a poor job winning games.

My observations are the Wizards are 9.4 points better per 100 possessions when McGee is on the court. The team has a better effective field goal percentage and they hold opponents to a lower effective field goal percentage when McGee plays. When McGee plays they outscore opponents by one at the line per 100 possession. When Javale sits a huge disparity the line occurs. Instead of outscoring opponents by one, the Wizards give opponents an extra 7 free throw attempts and are outscored by 4. A five point per 100 possessions occurs at the line. Javale is playing exceptionally well but still routinely plays 24-28 minutes.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10WAS16.HTM

Hinrich OTOH is often on the court. He's played more minutes than McGee. He's been a net negative in points per 100 possessions, effective field goal percentage (eFG), and eFG allowed.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10WAS4.HTM

Why does he play so much, yet McGee gets pulled from games and discouraged from shooting?

Nivek, I don't wish to see a man fired, but I do think Flip should have at least five more wins. He's better since Lewis was acquired and has played SF. But where Flip CONSISTENTLY makes the same mistake is running small ball with Hinrich and Wall in, and with McGee on the bench. Flip sticks with the same lineups even when they repeatedly fail.

There is nothing specious about 0-20, Nivek.

[Ruzious]

I'd like McGee to play more minutes, as well, but I think that's a matter of... time and health. He is averaging 27 plus minutes a game. I know he's had some back problems that have limited him, and we know he's been limited by stamina problems in the past.

Hinrich has played a lot due to necessity. Wall's health has been iffy, and people here are questioning if he's over-used. We have 2 PG's on the roster, yet people here compain that both have been used too much. And Young is now getting 37-40 minutes most nights, so there's no issue about him not getting enough minutes. The only thing you can say is - should they decrease the minutes for the 3 guard lineups. Yeah, probably they should, but it's not a slam dunk that Pam's precious little boy can handle more minutes. I think it's a process - just like him figuring out that the 2 or 3 horrible looking shots (where he basically threw the ball rather than shot it) he took in Milwaukee were mistakes that he needs to work on.

[Nivek]

I agree completely with Ruz's post above.

I like +/- stats to a point, but we all know they're heavily contextual. When your primary backup is Hilton Armstrong, you're going to look better. When your team has to go small when you're on the bench, you're going to look better.

Would I like to see McGee play more? You bet. So would Flip. Flip's trying to take McGee through a process of understanding that he needs to learn how to play. Right now, he's posting some numbers and he's showing signs of improvement, but most of that improvement is based on experience plus physical ability. For McGee to make the leap we all want to see, he needs to improve his mental approach, and he needs to improve his mental approach. So, Flip takes him out of games when he sees lapses in concentration and/or boneheaded mistakes. The hope is that at some point, McGee will recognize that he needs to be mindful of the moment. That he'll remain mentally present and that he won't check out mentally after he's been on the floor for awhile. That he'll recognize the need to work on his actual basketball skills instead of doing pretty dunks. That's the hope.

As for 0-20 on the road -- why is that more significant than 12-8 at home? Why is losing games on the road a reason to fire the coach? Would things be different if they were 2-18? By what process does Flip go from a good coach at home to a horrifically awful coach who deserves to get fired when they travel? It's nonsense.

The team was built to lose this season. They're losing. What a shock.

[dobrojim]

I think McGee would play a lot closer to 30+ min a game
if he wouldn't start so many games off by committing 2 fouls
in the first 5 minutes

[tontoz]

I think McGee would play a lot closer to 30+ min a game
if he wouldn't start so many games off by committing 2 fouls
in the first 5 minutes

I love the way he starts walking to the bench as soon as he hears the whistle.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think McGee would play a lot closer to 30+ min a game
if he wouldn't start so many games off by committing 2 fouls
in the first 5 minutes

Jim, your great observation is worth a separate thread. McGee's fouls and minutes on the road have a lot to do with 0-20.

[AceDegenerate]

Yeah... so how about we update these stats?