Official Game Thread: Wizards at Cavaliers Wednesday Jan 23r

[hands11]

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I didn't think Haywood played that bad. Z got a couple of jumpers early on while Haywood stayed inside to "protect the rim". Then when Z started to post up, Haywood guarded him well. Z just hit some crazy $hit. Step-back 20 footers from a 7-3 center? C'mon!

Also, Haywood was the only starter who looked decent in the 3rd quarter. He had at least 3 offensive board putbacks.

Agreed. Haywood was far from the problem. I saw the problem more to do with size mismatches. They played big. Our starters didn't match well and we didn't adjust. Adding GA helps with scoring but to me, it wouldn't solve the main problems.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas 7-3 260
Drew Gooden 6-10 250, Anderson Varejao 6-10 240
James 6-8 240
Sasha 6-7 210
Hughes 6-5 184

Example: In the 3rd they had Z an Anderson in there.
We had I think Blatche and Songaila

They also played lots of Z and Gooden. We had BH and AJ

They were big across the whole line up.

Also, Gooden is a terrible match up for AJ at PF. Hes just a bad combination of size, athletics and scoring skills that doesn't work well for AJ specially when BH has his hands full covering Z. Then Anderson comes in which isnt any better. Add to that they have Lebron at SF vs CB and they have large guards and we just didn't match up well. DS and AD were shut down.

We should have tried our bigger line ups to match them. This is exactly the type of team when all those big line ups I talk about should be used. Things like CB or AJ at SG and more OP/AB with BH. When they went smaller at guard, we could have played more AD, DS and maybe Mason.

Playing like this would have actually given us the size advantage.

BH 7-0 260
OP 7-0 230 AB 6-11 240
AJ 6-9 230 - CB, NY
CB 6-7 230 - NY, DS
NY 6-7 200 - AD

I think is one of the line ups that would have stood a better chance along with different options. Games like this is why I push for us trying these line up in easier games. I'm most frustrated that we didn't even try any of this once the game was out of hand.

BH usually plays Z well if that's all he has to worry about.
OP and AB could have caused Gooden and Anderson problems w size
AJ could bother Lebron on the outside with size and quick hands
CB could handled Sasha
NY could have eaten Hughes

We would have done a lot better rebounding.

[hands11]

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Agreed. The Cavs were Villanova-in-1985 hot. And, the Wizards had probably started smellin' themselves after getting a ton of positive press over the past 3-4 days. I didn't like seeing the Wizards regress on defense and settle on offense, but I think they'll come back in the next game with a vengeance.

I didn't see this lack of effort so many are talking about. I think they fought the first 1/2, they were just mismatched. Then in the 3rd, we went from starter to all bench ( including DMAC ) with nothing in between that made good sense.

[nate33]

Nice coaching job by Mike Brown too. I thought it was smart to play Z in the high post early on which took Haywood out of the lane. With Haywood out of the way, Gooden was able to use his size over Jamison and Lebron could get to the rim without resistance.

Cleveland's big men are unique in that they are real good shooters from 18 feet. In years past, Mike Brown didn't take advantage of this as much as he should. Now, they are moving the ball and spreading the floor. Man, they'd be good if Hughes wasn't such an atrocious shooter.

The Wizards need to counter. I don't think Hand's idea of dramatically altering our lineups will work. It might help on D but we'd be lost on offense with two turnover-prone bigs and no PG. Let's not forget that Cleveland is a very good defensive team.

I'd like to see the Wizards play a lot more zone against Cleveland. The weakness of a zone is that it's difficult to get all the way out and guard the 3-point line. But fortunately, Cleveland doesn't have great 3-point shooters (except Gibson and Jones). The zone should be quick enough to get out and challenge Gooden and Z at 18 feet.

[wateryd]

i don't think it was a lack of effort last night as much as a lack of extra effort. the D in the first half was like solid practice D, they were rotating pretty well, making the cavs take some tough jumpers, just the cavs were a step quicker and hitting all those shots. and let's face it, cleveland was simply the better team last night. and caron really shouldn't guard lebron next time the teams play, he was getting abused with regularity.

this is a proud team, though. no back-to-back losses for an entire month and they'll come out with focus on friday.

[LyricalRico]

Nice coaching job by Mike Brown too. I thought it was smart to play Z in the high post early on which took Haywood out of the lane. With Haywood out of the way, Gooden was able to use his size over Jamison and Lebron could get to the rim without resistance.

...

The Wizards need to counter.

This has been our problem with Cleveland since this rivalry started. The Cavs use their bigs very effectively and EJ responds by going small. I don't know what he thinks he's seeing but it never works.

[closg00]

[quote="hands11"][/quote]

Preach it son!

EJ is just too slow too react and make changes. In the Cavs series, EJ did not adjust with a larger lineup until we were facing elimination. We are going to need all of our bigs including Etan (yes Etan) if we face them in a series. 2-3 bigs most of the game.

GA/AD
CB/D-Song
BH
AB/ET
AJ/OP

[TheKingOfVa360]

We just took the night off and they played a good game. This was the type of game we needed Arenas in.

[miller31time]

Good lord - because of this bummer of a game, our defensive efficiency dropped from 13tg to 18th, and our offense dropped from 11th to 13th.

[fishercob]

Good lord - because of this bummer of a game, our defensive efficiency dropped from 13tg to 18th, and our offense dropped from 11th to 13th.

All that does is illustrate the limited value of such ratings unless you're looking at a large sample, like an entire season or three.

Loss is a loss is a loss -- by 1 or by 40. Lick your wounds and move on.

[GilArenas88]

After that debacle I bet people are hoping Gil comes back soon. See the games we miss Gil the most are games just like this, against really good defensive teams like San Antonio, Detriot, Cleveland, Boston we just can't score much, and we need Gilbert to get penetration and to open up things.

He's a 10 free per game type player, no one even comes close to that on this roster. Yes Caron is an excellent free throw shooter, but he doesn't atempt many, which is a combination of defenses focusing on him and not letting penetrate, I also think the refs don't give him his due, but whatever, and plain and simple Caron ain't no Gil when it comes to getting into the lane, he doesn't have Gil's speed or handle to do it at will like Gil.

I can't wait to get him back, people all over RealGM are saying were better without him, when it simply isn't the case. The reason were better is because we play defense this year. Also Gil is a better defender then AD so he just strengthens our defense, and gives us another go-to-scorer and a superstar talent that will ease defenses up on everyone on the team, most importantly Jamison and Butler.

Arenas will tho have to tone down two things in particular in my mind. First, three pointers, the ones he pulls up for early in the shot clock have to stop, they not only kill our offense but they hurt our defense. He should only be shooting threes when open, late in the shot clock, and he can have an occasional wild one just to keep our opponents guessing. Second I already touched on it, shots with 21 seconds left on the clock need to end unless he's wide open, preferably short range or layups shots. When he takes those shots early in the clock its great if he makes it yeah, but when he doesn't it destroys our defense.

I think Gil has become a wiser player. I think he is seeing what this team has done without him. I think he will be a great re-addition to our team.

[hands11]

Nice coaching job by Mike Brown too. I thought it was smart to play Z in the high post early on which took Haywood out of the lane. With Haywood out of the way, Gooden was able to use his size over Jamison and Lebron could get to the rim without resistance.

Cleveland's big men are unique in that they are real good shooters from 18 feet. In years past, Mike Brown didn't take advantage of this as much as he should. Now, they are moving the ball and spreading the floor. Man, they'd be good if Hughes wasn't such an atrocious shooter.

The Wizards need to counter. I don't think Hand's idea of dramatically altering our lineups will work. It might help on D but we'd be lost on offense with two turnover-prone bigs and no PG. Let's not forget that Cleveland is a very good defensive team.

I'd like to see the Wizards play a lot more zone against Cleveland. The weakness of a zone is that it's difficult to get all the way out and guard the 3-point line. But fortunately, Cleveland doesn't have great 3-point shooters (except Gibson and Jones). The zone should be quick enough to get out and challenge Gooden and Z at 18 feet.

I just wanted to see the line ups tried. We didn't have to start any of them. But once we saw our starting line up wasn't working, I wanted to see something else. We can only speculate as to what will work until we see it. But we all can see what didn't work.

Might I also remind you that Ive had other ideas like this that didn't go over well on the board but once tried, we all see they worked.

CB has already played some SG successfully.
We have also seen some OP/AB, AP/BH and AB/BH combinations. I even herd Phil reference the AB/BH line up last night but I don't think we saw it.

[hands11]

We just took the night off and they played a good game. This was the type of game we needed Arenas in.

Again, I think that is a mischaracterization of what happened. I don't think we took the night off. I saw NY go with energy for a monster dunk. I saw DS on the sidelines cheering the team on. I saw effort from BH. They just outsized up and that caused a lot of pressure to our normal advantages.

I think if we played them again tomorrow with the same line ups, pretty much the same things would happen.

Our standard line up work well against most teams but against a team designed the way CLE is, it isn't likely to work until we change up the line ups. We have the players to do it.

The question goes to, who are you designed to beat? Do you just want to be good or do you want to be great? Can you adjust your line ups to match up against a team like Cleveland who is big across the board?

[hands11]

Good lord - because of this bummer of a game, our defensive efficiency dropped from 13tg to 18th, and our offense dropped from 11th to 13th.

Yeah, you DIFF +/- took a kick in the nuts also.

Went from like 2.4 or 2.5 to 1.9

[hands11]

After that debacle I bet people are hoping Gil comes back soon. See the games we miss Gil the most are games just like this, against really good defensive teams like San Antonio, Detriot, Cleveland, Boston we just can't score much, and we need Gilbert to get penetration and to open up things.

He's a 10 free per game type player, no one even comes close to that on this roster. Yes Caron is an excellent free throw shooter, but he doesn't attempt many, which is a combination of defenses focusing on him and not letting penetrate, I also think the refs don't give him his due, but whatever, and plain and simple Caron ain't no Gil when it comes to getting into the lane, he doesn't have Gil's speed or handle to do it at will like Gil.

I can't wait to get him back, people all over RealGM are saying were better without him, when it simply isn't the case. The reason were better is because we play defense this year. Also Gil is a better defender then AD so he just strengthens our defense, and gives us another go-to-scorer and a superstar talent that will ease defenses up on everyone on the team, most importantly Jamison and Butler.

Arenas will tho have to tone down two things in particular in my mind. First, three pointers, the ones he pulls up for early in the shot clock have to stop, they not only kill our offense but they hurt our defense. He should only be shooting threes when open, late in the shot clock, and he can have an occasional wild one just to keep our opponents guessing. Second I already touched on it, shots with 21 seconds left on the clock need to end unless he's wide open, preferably short range or layups shots. When he takes those shots early in the clock its great if he makes it yeah, but when he doesn't it destroys our defense.

I think Gil has become a wiser player. I think he is seeing what this team has done without him. I think he will be a great re-addition to our team.

To me, that game changed very little in my view about GA coming back. Having GA wouldn't have been the difference maker. GA would have only burned Hughes more and would have shot mostly from the outside with hopefully some more drives. But with him injury, I'm not sure how much he is going to want to mix it up inside. They crushed us inside. Seems the problem was in the total line up and a lot of it was at the C/PF/SF positions.

[nate33]

Might I also remind you that Ive had other ideas like this that didn't go over well on the board but once tried, we all see they worked.

CB has already played some SG successfully.
We have also seen some OP/AB, AP/BH and AB/BH combinations. I even herd Phil reference the AB/BH line up last night but I don't think we saw it.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, buddy.

You weren't the only person suggesting Blatche and Haywood together (which has indeed been successful in a very small sample size). Basically, everybody is interested in seeing it for stretches against big lineups so long as Blatche can stay out of foul trouble.

And the Butler at SG idea has not been successful. The team is +6.0 per 48 minutes with Butler at SF. They are just +3.1 per 48 with Butler at SG.

[DCZards]

After that debacle I bet people are hoping Gil comes back soon. See the games we miss Gil the most are games just like this, against really good defensive teams like San Antonio, Detriot, Cleveland, Boston we just can't score much, and we need Gilbert to get penetration and to open up things.

He's a 10 free per game type player, no one even comes close to that on this roster.

I agree that this is the biggest difference in the Zards when GA is out--there's no one who regularly attacks the basket. It's a frustrating reality that, other than GA and occasionally AD or Nick, we are not a team that's good at penetrating. So not only do you have far fewer trips to the free throw line without Gil, you also have fewer stoppages of play, which would have helped stymie the kind of offensive momentum that Cleveland had last night.

When you're a jumpshooting team and you're misfiring, it makes it real easy for your opponent to get transition baskets and other easy hoops that can break your spirit--and lead to the kind of ugliness we had last night.

But, as one poster said, a loss is a loss whether it's by 1 or 40 points. And I wouldn't expect our guys to go into a funk over this one game. You don't become a professional athlete by getting overly bummed out by disappointment or failure.

That's why I can excuse Caron and some of the others for smiling even as they were getting gored. They know, as the song goes, that "mama said they'd be days like this."

[doclinkin]

To me, that game changed very little in my view about GA coming back. Having GA wouldn't have been the difference maker. GA would have only burned Hughes more and would have shot mostly from the outside with hopefully some more drives. But with him injury, I'm not sure how much he is going to want to mix it up inside. They crushed us inside. Seems the problem was in the total line up and a lot of it was at the C/PF/SF positions.

Nope. One reason why we've played Cleveland close in the past has to do with Gils ability to force the action and entice them into playing an uptempo game. Big Z and his bionic feet can't play at the pace; and LeBron wants to get out and run with the Zards, but nobody else on his team does (well, Larry, but he's only healthy .025% of any given season).

Essentially the Wiz at Gil speed take Cleveland out of their comfort zone, ruin their 'court balance'. To borrow your bugaboo. On top of that we weaken their interior for the same reason DCZards mentioned: Arenas drives right down their throat and forces foul trouble.

Mike Brown coached a decent game, but mostly they just executed well. Against Cleveland size is always a factor, but big Z was hitting from outside, which neutralizes the Brendan's strength inside (intimidating LeBron, changing shots). And Jamison was not, which lets them clog the middle. It's been a while since Jamison hit a string of three's like we're accustomed to see. He's been doing more of his work in traffic this year. Interesting, and effective against many teams, but that's meeting the Cav's where they are strongest.

Blatche, Opec or no, when Z can hit from outside their Bigs are (currently) a mismatch for us. Our advantage has been (in the past) our perimeter attack, and the Princeton system, which (as run by the Wiz) lets us open up the inside to get lanes for driving dive-bombs. When it works we hang with them just fine. Hang fouls on their help defenders. Soften up the gut with flurries of punches. But if we can't hit an outside jumper, well we got not much. Got nowhere to drive. Few positive mismatches.

Unless somehow you really think Blatche and Opec have shown themselves to be dominant inside scorers.

It's alright. We'll get Gil back, and have something to show 'em. I'm more concerned that we get to see a little more of Jamison hitting that ICBM barrage of threes like he has. Because refs plain don't give him the calls when he plays inside, and they let opponents muscle him around in there even when he converts the shot anyway.

I'd say he'll rediscver the shot when the Wiz pick up Gil's inside scoring dribble-drive attack. Though the concern is that while he regains his push Gil probably won't have full green light toggle-switch on all his weapons for at least another year post re-hab.

[charlie32]

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Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, buddy.

You weren't the only person suggesting Blatche and Haywood together (which has indeed been successful in a very small sample size). Basically, everybody is interested in seeing it for stretches against big lineups so long as Blatche can stay out of foul trouble.

And the Butler at SG idea has not been successful. The team is +6.0 per 48 minutes with Butler at SF. They are just +3.1 per 48 with Butler at SG.

I agree with Hands. This was the game to try the big line-up with AJ at the 3 on offense (guarding Pavlovic on D) and Caron at the 2. I don't think the +/- overall for Butler at the 2 is meaningful because he's gotten so few minutes there. Either way, it should have been tried last night because AB on Gooden might have made a difference on D and allowing Butler to post up Hughes would have been a plus on O. Nate will probably say Brown would have countered with Gibson as a match-up problem for Jamison, but I'd be willing to live with that because that match-up problem works both ways.

[Ruzious]

Remember that the Wiz were down by only 6 at halftime, and if they had Gil in the first half - they likely would have had the lead, because their offense was severely lacking penetration. Cleveland had 4 total fouls in the first half. In the 3rd quarter, EJ had Z double-teamed - because he didn't miss a shot in the first half. That opened up opportunities for everyone else on Cleve. And meanwhile, Washington continued to not penetrate, taking low percentage jumpers, and Butler and Jamison weren't hitting.

Z was the difference in the game - his performance and the Wiz failed effort to adjust. Next time they play, Haywood will have to contain him. If he goes out to take 20 footers - let him. Have a wing player go out and harrass him, but don't have Haywood go all the way out and chase him.

Btw, Z looked as quick as I've seen him since before he had foot problems in his rookie year.

[FreeBalling]

You know the saying.

What happens in Cleveland stay in Cleveland.

Zards bounce back and win on Friday big.