Official John Wall Appreciation Thread 2.0

[FAH1223]

I wonder how long it will take for Wall to be better than prime Gil...

He's already better defensively.

Offensively? Probably never.

[hands11]

I wonder how long it will take for Wall to be better than prime Gil...

He's already better defensively.

Offensively? Probably never.

I prefer a team build with a true pass first PG. Been saying that since back in the Gil days.

I would rather have Wall/Beal then Gil/DS or Gil/Hughes

It was always going to be a challenge to build a good team around a max contract shoot first PG that didn't play D. Thats why I never believed those teams. Solid first round team would never really challenge in the second round.

I would rather have a player like Beal on the floor playing a larger scoring role with a passing PG that plays defense and enough shots left over for some post possessions from the PF and center who both also play defense.

One think about those Gil team, there was never really any shots left over for post play. Even when Haywood would get it going, they would always go away from him.

[GhostsOfGil]

That wasn't Gil's fault. It was because those teams always had 2 other high volume scorers. Even when Haywood had it going, he was never a reliable scoring option. I'm surprised that people are even comparing Wall to Gil. Prime Gil, Beal, Ariza Nene Okafor would be a top 3 team in the east this year.

[nate33]

That wasn't Gil's fault. It was because those teams always had 2 other high volume scorers. Even when Haywood had it going, he was never a reliable scoring option. I'm surprised that people are even comparing Wall to Gil. Prime Gil, Beal, Ariza Nene Okafor would be a top 3 team in the east this year.

Yup. Indeed, this team is perfectly built for Gilbert Arenas. The defense is already in place. Arenas by himself makes them a competent offensive team. A top 5 defense and a number 15ish offense would indeed be a top 3 team in the East.

[hands11]

Well, that debate is all academic. It will never happen so we will never know. People have their views. Gil was fun for a few years but I will always believe that even with a healthy Gil, the way he played and who he was at what he cost, there would always be a limit to how far a team would go with him playing PG the way he did. Maybe if he would have grown and matured such that it wasn't all out him getting points where he passed more. And maybe played some D. Anyway. Again. It will never get tested nor will him playing for anyone so that story is over.

As for the Wizards, for a team that is still last on the year, they are 22nd for Feb and they seem to be climbing.

Should be interesting to see what the number look like at the end of the year for the healthy version of the team.

[GhostsOfGil]

I admit I tend to romanticize the Gilbert years but I'm not sure why you think this current team can go further than a team lead by Gil. Like nate said, this team is tailor made for a guy like Gil.

Also remember that Gil was a proven playoff performer. If the Wiz somehow made the playoffs this year, I think we would see Wall struggle mightily. Teams like Miami, or Chicago would make it a priority to clog that lane up and shut him down.

[hands11]

I admit I tend to romanticize the Gilbert years but I'm not sure why you think this current team can go further than a team lead by Gil. Like nate said, this team is tailor made for a guy like Gil.

Also remember that Gil was a proven playoff performer. If the Wiz somehow made the playoffs this year, I think we would see Wall struggle mightily. Teams like Miami, or Chicago would make it a priority to clog that lane up and shut him down.

Oh course. I would expect Beal and Wall to struggle in their first playoff experience. That is true of almost every first time playoff team that has younger players i.e. 19 starting. But keep in mind, they do have Nene and Trevor A who have been there. Trevor A was even on a team that won it all. And while Okafor hasn't had that experience, he is a quality center and a mature man. If I was a playoff team, I wouldn't want to run into the Wizards in the playoff. No telling what they could do. They would give any of the playoff teams a run for their money.

I already clearly detailed why I think this team is better constructed than any of those other Gil lead teams. What I outlined wasn't about would prime Gil take this team farther then current Wall could. That is what someone else turned it into. I was pointing out that this is a more solid TEAM then those TEAMS. Better constructed. More balanced in regards to things that make a better team.

In summary. All the starter defend. And they have player that fit their positions in a more traditional way.

PG-SG-SF-PF-C Not a shoot first PG who jacks 3 with 20 second on the clock and that doesn't defend and a hybrid PF/SF that can't defend either. And no weave and heave.

Nene and Okafor are better post players when considering everything. Offense and Defense.
Beal is better pure SG and is only 19 so he is a great building block long term.
Combined, Trevor A and Webster offer more then CB alone.
And Wall is a more pass first PG and he plays defense.

[RustyMagoo]

Funny to hear dudes still bending for Gil. At his best, he was a one trick dog. At his worst, an absolute team killer.

Tough Juice still needs more looks.

[montestewart]

Funny to hear dudes still bending for Gil. At his best, he was a one trick dog. At his worst, an absolute team killer.

Tough Juice still needs more looks.

Ruffin too.

[hands11]

Funny to hear dudes still bending for Gil. At his best, he was a one trick dog. At his worst, an absolute team killer.

Tough Juice still needs more looks.

I know. Its like some kind of battered wife syndrome. I know he beats me but he does love me and he pays the bills.

Gil was really good at putting up pts on a tone of shots and he had the whole Hibatchi thing, etc. and they making it to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. He made thing interesting in DC again. But you have to look at the entire body of work. The entire package. The no D. The shoe crapping. The I don't want to be a captain. The locker room approach. The stupid gun thing. His own blown rehab. The going to China during contract negotiations. The selfish predicting 50 pt revenge statement before playoff games. Can't just pick the stuff you liked. He wasn't a complete basketball player like Beal is. He either should have been an undersized SG or he needed to play more like a real PG which he was completely capable of doing. He would show it once in a while when he was pissed off and trying to show up the coaches by not shooting and just passing for like 15 assist for a game. For those that pine for Gil, he could have been so so much more. He could have been a complete basketball player. What a waste of talent. Empty stats and brand building over building a winning team where he was a legit leader.

I would take a Beal over a Gil every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Beal is the real deal. Gil was fools gold.

[FAH1223]

I know. Its like some kind of battered wife syndrome. I know he beats me but he does love me and he pays the bills.

Gil was really good at putting up pts on a tone of shots and he had the whole Hibatchi thing, etc. and they making it to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. He made thing interesting in DC again. But you have to look at the entire body of work. The entire package. The no D. The shoe crapping. The I don't want to be a captain. The locker room approach. The stupid gun thing. His own blown rehab. The going to China during contract negotiations. The selfish predicting 50 pt revenge statement before playoff games. Can't just pick the stuff you liked. He wasn't a complete basketball player like Beal is. He either should have been an undersized SG or he needed to play more like a real PG which he was completely capable of doing. He would show it once in a while when he was pissed off and trying to show up the coaches by not shooting and just passing for like 15 assist for a game. For those that pine for Gil, he could have been so so much more. He could have been a complete basketball player. What a waste of talent. Empty stats and brand building over building a winning team where he was a legit leader.

I would take a Beal over a Gil every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Beal is the real deal. Gil was fools gold.

What you're saying holds merit about all of Gilbert's flaws. However, the comparison was between Gilbert and Wall.

We had Gilbert when he was 21 after stealing him from GSW. By 23, he lead this franchise to the postseason and they won a series (he hit a GW shot in Game 5 vs. Chicago) and that was his first postseason appearence.

Wall is 22. Will be 23 in September. He'll never do what Gilbert could do offensively. And like CCJ has said numerous times, he just doesn't have that clutch gene or "it" factor IMO.

Beal, however, does and he passes the eye test on that.

[GhostsOfGil]

Funny to hear dudes still bending for Gil. At his best, he was a one trick dog. At his worst, an absolute team killer.

Tough Juice still needs more looks.

Idiotic post.

I know. Its like some kind of battered wife syndrome. I know he beats me but he does love me and he pays the bills.

Gil was really good at putting up pts on a tone of shots and he had the whole Hibatchi thing, etc. and they making it to the playoffs for the first time in a long time.

What? During his prime years he was averaging under 21 shots to get 29 points with a ts% in the high 50s.

He made thing interesting in DC again. But you have to look at the entire body of work. The entire package. The no D. The shoe crapping. The I don't want to be a captain. The locker room approach. The stupid gun thing. His own blown rehab. The going to China during contract negotiations. The selfish predicting 50 pt revenge statement before playoff games. Can't just pick the stuff you liked. He wasn't a complete basketball player like Beal is. He either should have been an undersized SG or he needed to play more like a real PG which he was completely capable of doing. He would show it once in a while when he was pissed off and trying to show up the coaches by not shooting and just passing for like 15 assist for a game. For those that pine for Gil, he could have been so so much more. He could have been a complete basketball player. What a waste of talent. Empty stats and brand building over building a winning team where he was a legit leader.

I would take a Beal over a Gil every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Beal is the real deal. Gil was fools gold.

Hands, your right, Gil was not a player you build your franchise around. His off court antics and immaturity really flatlined this franchise... But you cannot deny his on court production. Saying he put up empty stats is just wrong. I never said I'd rather build around Gil. I just found the Wall vs Arenas comparison to be silly.

[Nivek]

At his best, Arenas was one of the top 5 offensive weapons in the league. His defense wasn't good, but it also wasn't as bad as folks are retrospecting. I hand-tracked individual defense during Gil's years, and he was about average for a Wizards perimeter defender. The problem with the defense was partly personnel (primarily Jamison, who was a terrible defender), and more about the system they used and the lineup decisions the coaches made.

System example: better defensive teams typically have a set of "rule" or principles for how they want to play defense. Tactics are adjusted based on who they're playing and what the opponent likes to do, but the principles are basically to keep the ball out of the middle -- force it to the sideline and to the baseline where big men can help. Turn shooters into drivers (good close out); make drivers pull up and shoot jumpers or get attempts over bigs.

The Wizards under Eddie Jordan and Mike O'Koren didn't have those kinds of principles. They ran all kinds of zones and permutations of man defense. Their force rules were different depending on the defense. They placed a heavy emphasis on "activity," getting steals, and forcing turnovers. The problem: good defense is really about positioning and teamwork -- not about flying around and getting steals. The good defenses make the other team miss shots and get steals because they're in good position.

What the coaches emphasized fed into their lineup decisions. The best example is their preference for Etan Thomas and Michael Ruffin over Brendan Haywood. Haywood was slow and awkward and kinda weak looking; and also a VASTLY superior defender than either of those guys. But, Etan had the chiseled muscles and the dreadlocks and the menacing glare, and he put on a great show of activity. Yet, in tracking, Haywood defended far more possessions and was far more effective than Thomas. Ruffin was a decent defender, but not in Haywood's league those years.

[Higga]

I love Beal but anyone who would take him right now over prime Gilbert Arenas needs to get their heads checked. Prime Gil was downright unstopable, offensively he was right there with the Kobes and Carmelos. 30 points and 6 dimes a game, wake me up when Beal can reach half those #s(and again don't get me wrong, I love Beal, and think he will be a star, but he ain't prime Gil yet).

Don't understand some of the Gil hate here. I think he was just fine as a franchise player, the problem is we were crippled with a moron head coach and a GM who didn't properly build around his talents.

[hands11]

I know. Its like some kind of battered wife syndrome. I know he beats me but he does love me and he pays the bills.

Gil was really good at putting up pts on a tone of shots and he had the whole Hibatchi thing, etc. and they making it to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. He made thing interesting in DC again. But you have to look at the entire body of work. The entire package. The no D. The shoe crapping. The I don't want to be a captain. The locker room approach. The stupid gun thing. His own blown rehab. The going to China during contract negotiations. The selfish predicting 50 pt revenge statement before playoff games. Can't just pick the stuff you liked. He wasn't a complete basketball player like Beal is. He either should have been an undersized SG or he needed to play more like a real PG which he was completely capable of doing. He would show it once in a while when he was pissed off and trying to show up the coaches by not shooting and just passing for like 15 assist for a game. For those that pine for Gil, he could have been so so much more. He could have been a complete basketball player. What a waste of talent. Empty stats and brand building over building a winning team where he was a legit leader.

I would take a Beal over a Gil every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Beal is the real deal. Gil was fools gold.

What you're saying holds merit about all of Gilbert's flaws. However, the comparison was between Gilbert and Wall.

We had Gilbert when he was 21 after stealing him from GSW. By 23, he lead this franchise to the postseason and they won a series (he hit a GW shot in Game 5 vs. Chicago) and that was his first postseason appearence.

Wall is 22. Will be 23 in September. He'll never do what Gilbert could do offensively. And like CCJ has said numerous times, he just doesn't have that clutch gene or "it" factor IMO.

Beal, however, does and he passes the eye test on that.

No, the comparison was between this TEAM and those TEAMS

[hands11]

At his best, Arenas was one of the top 5 offensive weapons in the league. His defense wasn't good, but it also wasn't as bad as folks are retrospecting. I hand-tracked individual defense during Gil's years, and he was about average for a Wizards perimeter defender. The problem with the defense was partly personnel (primarily Jamison, who was a terrible defender), and more about the system they used and the lineup decisions the coaches made.

System example: better defensive teams typically have a set of "rule" or principles for how they want to play defense. Tactics are adjusted based on who they're playing and what the opponent likes to do, but the principles are basically to keep the ball out of the middle -- force it to the sideline and to the baseline where big men can help. Turn shooters into drivers (good close out); make drivers pull up and shoot jumpers or get attempts over bigs.

The Wizards under Eddie Jordan and Mike O'Koren didn't have those kinds of principles. They ran all kinds of zones and permutations of man defense. Their force rules were different depending on the defense. They placed a heavy emphasis on "activity," getting steals, and forcing turnovers. The problem: good defense is really about positioning and teamwork -- not about flying around and getting steals. The good defenses make the other team miss shots and get steals because they're in good position.

What the coaches emphasized fed into their lineup decisions. The best example is their preference for Etan Thomas and Michael Ruffin over Brendan Haywood. Haywood was slow and awkward and kinda weak looking; and also a VASTLY superior defender than either of those guys. But, Etan had the chiseled muscles and the dreadlocks and the menacing glare, and he put on a great show of activity. Yet, in tracking, Haywood defended far more possessions and was far more effective than Thomas. Ruffin was a decent defender, but not in Haywood's league those years.

And what did we expect from the steal master himself... MR EFJ.

You are right. The problem was team focus. It was all about the glamor. Pts and steals. And not enough about the fundamentals. Team defense, passing the ball on offense. Post point from your bigs. But Gil and AJ were not just symptoms of that, they were part of the problem. It was just a poorly designed team. They went as far as they were going to go and in a weak conference at that.

This team is designed much better in my view.

[hands11]

I love Beal but anyone who would take him right now over prime Gilbert Arenas needs to get their heads checked. Prime Gil was downright unstopable, offensively he was right there with the Kobes and Carmelos. 30 points and 6 dimes a game, wake me up when Beal can reach half those #s(and again don't get me wrong, I love Beal, and think he will be a star, but he ain't prime Gil yet).

Don't understand some of the Gil hate here. I think he was just fine as a franchise player, the problem is we were crippled with a moron head coach and a GM who didn't properly build around his talents.

I would say the exact opposite. You really need your head examined if you would take Gil over Beal.

[dobrojim]

Funny to hear dudes still bending for Gil. At his best, he was a one trick dog. At his worst, an absolute team killer.

Tough Juice still needs more looks.

Ruffin too.

[bgroban]

For all of you who are so eager to deal John:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/02/the ... ntent=ESPN

[Ruzious]

For all of you who are so eager to deal John:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/02/the ... ntent=ESPN

Interesting stuff in that article.

The best 3-point shooting team in the NBA, the Oklahoma City Thunder (39.2 percent from 3 as a team), shoots 8.1 percent better from the corner, tied for the third-highest difference in the league. The second-best overall team from deep, the Golden State Warriors (39.0 percent), shoots 7.2 percent better from the corner. And the third-best 3-point shooting team, the Miami Heat (39.0 percent), shoots 8.2 percent better from the corner. Two of these teams are championship contenders. See the developing pattern?

It also sounds like a key to setting up the corner 3 is having at least one player able to drive and dish. So, if the Wiz do trade Wall, they should look to get someone with that ability to penetrate defenses and dish.