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Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#631 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:32 pm

Spence wrote:
Ed Wood wrote:And I see very little way around the fact that based upon what should be expected of Okafor and Ariza both are extremely overpaid and not really likely to elevate the overall quality of the team to any great degree.

Yep, Okafor and Ariza are very overpaid. No doubt about that. I don't have a list of all the superb NBA players who are both underpaid and actually available in trades, but I suspect the list is microscopically small. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though, which is one reason I asked for specific names.

Just to be clear, I don't regard overpaying Nicholas Batum and someone else for five years to be a superior alternative to overpaying Okafor and Ariza for two years.

Not sure what you mean by "not really likely to elevate the overall quality of the team to any great degree." I'd concur that we're not going to win a title with those guys. I doubt a deal to put this team in the NBA Finals was on the table. I also have my doubts that such a deal will be available...ever. I wish we could win a championship by just hanging on to cap space until someone offers us a superstar or two, but I just don't see it happening. I acknowledge it is possible, but unlike many here, it seems, I'm not prepared to assume it was inevitable.


Just to throw a few ideas out there: The Wizards could have signed Gerald Wallace. He is a SF who rebounds well. Two needs met by one player. He also defends well and has playoff experience. If they wanted to add a big man, Omer Asik can defend. Spencer Hawes is a big man who can pass, rebound reasonably well, and he can hit an outside shot. If they wanted to add rebounding, Kris Humphries rebounds way better than anybody on the Wizards.

There were other options, and surely some of them on paper appear better to me. Batum wasn't the only idea.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#632 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:36 pm

willbcocks wrote:If I were brought in as GM, I would look to move Nene for the best pick or young player could get towards the end of this season.

It would essentially be BOYDing ourselves--rather than trading Okafor because he's not worth his contract, we would be keeping him and moving the better player for positive value. That's my solution to the frontcourt logjam.


I like your idea. You can have Ernie's job.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#633 » by sipndip » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:38 pm

Nivek wrote:Nate: You're probably not understanding the importance of acquiring players who will be contractually obligated to play for the Wizards for the next two seasons. It's huge because there's no guarantee that a player NOT contractually obligated to play for the Wizards would ever want to play for the Wizards. Why, the mere thought of such a thing is laughable. HA-HA-HA. See? I just laughed at the thought myself. No one could be enticed to play for a team like the Wizards for a piddling thing like a Brinks truck filled with money. Much better to acquire guys with existing contracts. Then they can be forced to play for the Wizards.

Looked at properly, this is a genius move.



Sorry if the link to Ted's blog has already been posted:

http://www.tedstake.com/2012/06/20/wiza ... ver-trade/

It's shocking how's Ted's rationale for the trade mirrors Nivek's sarcastic take. Not so shocking that the moderator did not allow my negative, but SFW comments, though there are lots of positive comments appearing...
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#634 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:38 pm

From today's Hollinger chat...


Do you think Washington has a shot at the playoffs with their new potential lineup of Wall-Arisa-MKG-Nene-Okafor?
John Hollinger
(12:08 PM)


A shot? I'll go as far as a shot. I don't think it's a particularly good shot, given that they were 28th in offense last year and managed to punt $20 million in cap without addressing that problem, and that they have a terrible coach, but yes, they have something of a shot. Also, they may draft Beal instead of MKG, which I think would be a terrible mistake, but there you go
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#635 » by DCZards » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
I believe drafting Fab Melo would give just as good or better defense than Okafor has left, and do so on a rookie deal. Spence, one SPECIFIC ideas that many have put out is the Wizards could have bid high to try to get Batum from Portland. He has been Kevin Seraphin's teammate and they are great friends. Other names sound MUCH MORE APPEALING: Ryan Anderson and Ersan Ilyasova are the kind of young guys who will be good for a long time. If the Wizards wanted to add some talent, I was thinking guys with offense and rebounding would be the focus. Also, I think James Singleton is a real good player right now. I would rather see him play at PF than Okafor. I think Cartier Martin deserved some minutes at SF.

I am really discouraged by the two players' salaries and what the implications are: Okafor will start. GMs put pressure on their coaching staff when they bring in veterans who might not be as good as the players on hand.


A few things.ccj. There was no guarantee that Fab Melo would be there when the Zards drafted...in fact I expect him to go late first round. And I'm not convinced Melo would even be the best second round pick for the Zards. Yes, we can HOPE to sign a free agent like Anderson or Ilyasova, but good free agent signings rarely happen, and when they do you usually end up paying max or close to max for a player who doesn't deserve (or earn) it.

My biggest fear with the trade for Okafor/Ariza is that it probably means that the Zards don't resign J. Singleton who I really like. However, there is no way that you can compare Singleton and Okafor as a PF. James is simply too light in the pants to be the kind of tough rebounding, rim protecting big man that Okafor is capable of being.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#636 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Gerald Wallace- I like him but he'll be 31 next season and would have cost a decent amount of money on likley a 3-yr deal. NJ was going to drive up the price to ensure they didn't lose their lottery pick for nothing.

Omer Asik- Not a huge fan. To slow footed IMO to be a good fit here.

Spencer Hawes- Why would he chose to sign here as a backup?

Humphries- I think he's a good player but would require $7-$9 MM annually on a longer term deal

Also if we bought out Lewis, we would have had space for one FA of this caliberm not 2 because the $13 MM would have been dead weight versus the cap....
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#637 » by LyricalRico » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:40 pm

DCZards wrote:I don't believe Ted sees this as straying from or delaying his rebuild plans. In fact, he probably sees it as advancing those plans. The idea of having a worse record over the next 2 years with the HOPE (and hope is the key word) of adding pieces along the way may appeal to you, but I think Ted (and most of the Zards fanbase) are tired of losing. I think the Zards ownership believes, and I do as well, think that you can rebuild the team over the next 2-3 years while winning 40 or so games (and making the playoffs), rather than 25 games.


:nod:

Assuming that Ted/Ernie see our core as being pretty much set (presumably Wall, Serphin, our #3 pick this year, and maybe one of Booker/Vesely/Crawford) then giving those players the chance to learn how to win is the logical next step. Adding tough, veteran players with playoff (and in Ariza's case, championship) experience is a good step in that direction IMO. And if they didn't believe that other perhaps better deals (such as ideas suggested on this board) were or would become avaialble, then I absolutely support them pulling the trigger. Let's see how this thing plays out.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#638 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:42 pm

DCZards wrote:
A few things.ccj. There was no guarantee that Fab Melo would be there when the Zards drafted...in fact I expect him to go late first round. And I'm not convinced Melo would even be the best second round pick for the Zards. Yes, we can HOPE to sign a free agent like Anderson or Ilyasova, but good free agent signings rarely happen, and when they do you usually end up paying max or close to max for a player who doesn't deserve (or earn) it.

My biggest fear with the trade for Okafor/Ariza is that it probably means that the Zards don't resign J. Singleton who I really like. However, there is no way that you can compare Sngleton and Okafor as a PF. James is simply too light in the pants to be the kind of tough rebounding, rim protecting big man that Okafor is capable of being.


Well, he'll be there at #3, and knowing Ernie...

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#639 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:42 pm

DCZards....I'm hoping Singleton is still in the picture which is why I'm hoping the aggresively shop Booker.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#640 » by DCZards » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:45 pm

tontoz wrote:
DCZards wrote:
tontoz wrote:

How is making this deal going to lead to a 15 game improvement?


I'm not suggesting that the Okafor/Ariza deal alone will lead to a 15 game improvement. We're also talking about last year's deal for Nene, the development of young players like Wall, Seraphin and Ves, and the addition of a top draft pick...hopefully Beal.



And i believe that would have been enough to get close to 40 wins (assuming a competent 3 was brought in) without blowing $20+ million of next summers cap space.



Ok. So now we're a 45-47 win team. :D
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#641 » by tontoz » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:45 pm

mohammed10 wrote:From today's Hollinger chat...


Do you think Washington has a shot at the playoffs with their new potential lineup of Wall-Arisa-MKG-Nene-Okafor?
John Hollinger
(12:08 PM)


A shot? I'll go as far as a shot. I don't think it's a particularly good shot, given that they were 28th in offense last year and managed to punt $20 million in cap without addressing that problem, and that they have a terrible coach, but yes, they have something of a shot. Also, they may draft Beal instead of MKG, which I think would be a terrible mistake, but there you go



Disagree on Whittman and Beal but i understand where he is coming from. Hollinger is a numbers guy and numbers without context can lead to some bad conclusions. I always take that into account when reading Hollinger.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#642 » by verbal8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:47 pm

jivelikenice wrote:DCZards....I'm hoping Singleton is still in the picture which is why I'm hoping the aggresively shop Booker.


I like what James Singleton showed last season, but why would he come back to the Wizards with the logjam at PF?
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#643 » by TGW » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

The Wizards aren't in a position to add "tough, veteran players." They NEED TALENT. Anything else is just extraneous lip service to appease the masses. Adding below average players (and Okafor and Ariza are below average--I dare you to challenge me on that) just for the sake of adding vets is foolish.

James Singleton is better than Okafor, for about 1/10th of the cost. Cartier Martin is almost as good as Ariza, for about 1/10th of the cost. Marginal players like Okafor and Ariza can be added for close to the vet minimum. No need to kill any flexibility for players like them...it's utterly absurd and Nivek is 100% right in mocking our stupid FO on this deal.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#644 » by queridiculo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Gerald Wallace opted out of a deal that paid him a $10.5 million. At 30 years old he's looking at the final contract of his career and you can expect him to push for a minum of 4 years with a salary close to or over what he is making now.

I'm sorry, but for all the noise about our lack of shooting, all of a sudden Gerald Wallace at $40+ million over the next four years is the holy grail? Ok then...

The deal is far from great, no point in debating that, but I prefer the two years that we're on the hook for on those contracts, with facing the possibility of having one or more of our draft picks pan out and not having the salary cap space the retain them.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#645 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 pm

tontoz wrote:

Disagree on Whittman and Beal but i understand where he is coming from. Hollinger is a numbers guy and numbers without context can lead to some bad conclusions. I always take that into account when reading Hollinger.


tontoz-

Agree with him on Whitman, but disagree with him on Beal. Personally, I think Beal would be a great fit in the backcourt with Wall. As an aside, I also think Barnes is going to be a better pro than college player, but I digress...
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#646 » by tontoz » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:52 pm

The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#647 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:53 pm

closg00 wrote:From the ESPN board comments on the trade



specs230308
Hornets must of thought they were dreaming when they were able to unload both thoe contracts and keep all their picks.
1 Hour Ago


And don't forget us throwing-in our 46th pick just for extra laughs.

What is it with the Wizards and picks? Rubio in Minnesota could have been a Wizard if they kept the pick. Lawson in Denver was casually cast away, too.

In this draft I won't be at all shocked if #46 sticks with New Orleans. Danny Green was #46. Paul Millsap went #47. This is a draft where Crowder could slip. Denmon, Machado, Kyle O'Quinn, Kevin Jones--all of these players could make a roster and end up spot starters some day.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#648 » by TGW » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:55 pm

tontoz wrote:The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:


:lol:

Don't leave out Okafor either. Neither of these "tough vets" did much to pickup the slack in NO.

But I'm sure since Ernie the genius traded for them, they'll magically play better in Washington.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#649 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:57 pm

More Hollinger chat nuggets -

The Dude (Los Angeles)


Shouldn't Stern have blocked the Wizards deal for the good of the League? And yes, I'm still mad about the cancellation of the CP3 trade.
John Hollinger
(12:25 PM)


They were laughing too hard to say anything.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#650 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:58 pm

fishercob wrote:The NBA funny. The Wizards made a trade that will make them a better team next season, and most of us hate it.

Just because I don't like the trade, it does not mean agree with a lot of the analysis as to why the trade was bad.

Dat, this notion that Okafor is the third best center on the Wizards is silliness. Nene's ideal position is at the 4. Seraphin -- while me made lovely progress last year -- is still far from a finished product. There's plenty Okafor can't do very well, but he can defend and rebound. The Wizards were 26th in Defensive Rebounding last year -- even with the bump that they got from the Nene/Vale trade. Seraphin is thus far crappy on the defensive boards. This in an area that we need help.

Ariza has regressed so much since his Laker days, but from an age standpoint he should be entering his prime. If he was still playing at his 05-08 level he probably would not have been available. I don't like the player he's been in recent years, for sure.

The Wizards may lose a lot of 83-79 games this year. But they're not going to be fun to play against. No one is going to enjoy banging with Nene, Okafor, Seraphin and company for 48 minutes.

But yeah, I can't talk myself into believing that this was a good trade :-(


left off reading at ~page 12 yesterday...had time to think more overnight.
Think I'll jump in here and then go ahead and read the next 20 pages. :D

Not in love with the trade but I don't totally hate it either.
Still tend to think we might have been better off doing nothing.

Things to like -
We got rid of a guy who was not going to do anything for us. We got
back a couple guys who have a much better chance they could do something
for us. As to whether this stunts the growth/development of our young guys,
I think the one thing Wittman showed was that he was going to operate a
meritocracy and hold people accountable. If these 2 guys play well enough
to get minutes, I doubt it will be because an accountant in the FO told
the coach he had to play them because they had big contracts. Having
no nonsense professionals to go against shouldn't hurt our youngins'. No
one is going to see game minutes without earning them. I don't necessarily
think this means Booker gets traded.

We've lost cap space for 2 years, but the 2 contracts will be expirings
after one year, so it could easily end up not being for 2 years.
Other moves are possible and maybe even likely. How badly
this hurt/helps will be a lot more clear by trade deadline in Mar 2013 or
next year's offseason, assuming nothing changes before then.

Concerns -
If we lose Beal, then I'll be a lot less happy, especially if we end up with
Barnes. I'd have to wonder if drafting Waiters at that point wouldn't be the
better move. That said, we shouldn't discount taking MKG either. It ain't like Ariza
is going to be around forever and MKG is so young that what Fish has said
about Beal and expectations has to apply to MKG as well if he becomes the pick.
Having MKG be exposed to Ariza who has won a ring wouldn't be a awful thing.
Because of that, I have less concern that EG showed his hand. We'll still have
our choice of anyone except AD and one other player. I'm betting CHA does not
take Beal, that they take either TRob (best fit), Drummond (swing for fences) or
Barnes (tarheel). Beal makes the least sense. Who knows what MJ is thinking.

Interesting that Okafor has such a pathetic lifetime winning %. One might also
remember that Nene has the opposite thing going on, a very good lifetime winning %.

Last night on CSN, they reported a poll which said that something like 3-1 in the poll
liked the trade. I trust the board a bit more than a poll that but it's interesting that it's
probably more than 3-1 against the trade here.
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