Comparing Front-courts

[closg00]

So-glad Bleacher Report did this article, I was going to create a thread comparing the Front-courts in the East so this-one is a good one to kick-off a discussion. Surprisingly, the Wizards Front-court was listed as the worst in the NBA. We're bad, but worst FC in the NBA?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4333 ... top#page/2

[Dat2U]

The inclusion of SFs in the rankings doesn't make alot of sense to me. Should only be the PF & C positions. Even so, I don't see how Toronto & Cleveland rated ahead of us. Charlotte is too high as well.

One thing I'm sorta of optimistic about. John Wall's impact on our front court, at least on the offensive end. I'm sure our front court will score their fair share of points. I'm just worried about whether we can can get stops AND rebound the basketball.

I'd say overall, were near the bottom due to youth & lack of depth. I really think EG should have done more than add Hilton Armstrong into the mix. We needed a veteran center that can actually play for 15-20 minutes a night. But with McGee & Blatche there's a ton of upside & athleticism there that alot a teams ahead of us can't match. And there's some teams like Boston (ranked 3rd on this list - who got even slower with the Shaq & JO additions) who we matchup pretty well with.

[sfam]

So-glad Bleacher Report did this article, I was going to create a thread comparing the Front-courts in the East so this-one is a good one to kick-off a discussion. Surprisingly, the Wizards Front-court was listed as the worst in the NBA. We're bad, but worst FC in the NBA?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4333 ... top#page/2

I gotta agree with this (at least in the worst 3-5 teams, anyway) due to the Center position. Most people doubt whether McGee could defend the basket from a half-dead tree - every time the wind blows, moving a tree limb, McGee would be jumping up in the air, leaving the base of the tree a wide open path to fall toward the basket. With that much of a liability, and nothing worth mentioning at SF (Howard will start the season injured), we can't possibly be anywhere but the bottom of the league.

[no D in Hibachi]

Any list that has the Thunder in the bottom half loses all cred. It wouldn't matter if the Thunder's CE and PF were terrible, which they aren't, because the simple fact that Durant is on the team makes them at least top ten.

Also, I question his statement that the outlook is relatively bleak. Blatche and McGee are both young and obviously extremely talented. Blatche has already been a very productive player and McGee has been one of the biggest surprises of the summer with his showing in Vegas and inclusion on team USA. I'd rather have the Wiz front court than the Hornet front court and they are ranked 15.

[Wizardspride]

So-glad Bleacher Report did this article, I was going to create a thread comparing the Front-courts in the East so this-one is a good one to kick-off a discussion. Surprisingly, the Wizards Front-court was listed as the worst in the NBA. We're bad, but worst FC in the NBA?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4333 ... top#page/2

With that much of a liability, and nothing worth mentioning at SF (Howard will start the season injured), we can't possibly be anywhere but the bottom of the league.

I gotta disagree with you. Al Thornton isn't a star but I feel that he can hold his own while Howard recuperates.

[montestewart]

Rock bottom is pretty harsh, but everything the front three positions are filled with unknowns: Can McGee build upon his apparent strides at the end of last year and this summer? Can Blatche really come forward as steady option starter every game? Will Thornton show some steadiness and consistency of game to match his clear effort and intensity (in a contract year)? Will Howard come back from injury and show some of his former game (in a contract year)? Does Yi just need better guidance and definition of role to put it together (in a contract year)? Can Booker and Seraphin contribute this year? Will Hilton be anything other than a last resort?

Many questions. If by the end of the year, we could look at the front court as middle of the pack (somewhere around 15-20) I will be very happy with them. If they show that by the break, it will more than exceed my expectations.

[doclinkin]

As I've been yammering about or alluding to in other threads, I think the frontcourt could shake out into a position of relative strength for these Wiz. Not dominant, not overpowering but dynamic and interesting. Dray and McGee are coming along nicely, visibly improving. And in this system I think even players like Yi and Hilton could prove something of a revelation.

The frontcourt we had last year, with Dray, JaVale, Thornton (not to mention a healthy Josh) occasionally rose up to surprise far more accomplished squads. Here against the eventual EC champions:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKe1_GNc5M[/youtube]

JaVale and Dray together is a daunting accumulation of length, fitting Flip's zone scheme quite well once they saturate and marinate in its principles. JaVale need only learn to stay at home and guard an area, instead of freelancing. I suspect as he adds weight he'll gain the confidence to do so, there's something satisfying watching a smaller player skid to a stop and backpedal off their dribble in fear. The fact that he starts the year as a likely starter means that he'll certainly get sufficient reps that he needn't scramble so hard to showcase his game. The reps will come, wait your turn big puppy.

As for Yi and Hilton. Look I've already hung my ass out on Yi, with the idea that he may prove a surprising fit for this offense and discover some confidence in his game. I understand so far his stats and footage suggest otherwise, but there's a glimmer there, if not a certain aptitude, that his playstyle sinters well with Flip's playbook. If Yi is doing well, doing what Yi thinks he does best, then Flip has a use for him.

The same is certainly true of Hilton Armstrong. Coming out of UConn Hilton was touted as a skilled face-up Big who needed some polish on his raw game. Defensively he was noted as a shotblocker, but not so much a rebounder. Still true. But here again, what he does well when he's playing at his highlight reel best, features many skills that Flip can use in his sets. Consider:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEtKjACpQEg[/youtube]

Here's the thing about Hilton: despite his height he'll always measure small due to short arms, small hands and an overlong neck. Dude clearly has some diplodocus in his family ancestry. He'll hit the tape at 6'11" but will always have to play as a 6'9" fellow. Just facts.

However he's an athletic guy with decent agility and pretty good upper body strength. He has a high center of gravity so he won't hold his ground in the post and leverage players off their spot. He can get bumped off line and won't finish after contact reliably since he's go the smallish hands. But like Yi he's got proficient footwork off the dribble, and all the requisite athleticism needed to succeed in a finesse role, on plays designed to give the mid-post Big a little room to operate.

The system features that player. And with Dray healing to start the season players like Yi, Hilton and McGee will get a chance to play-act in that role, to train as understudies. McGee also has the potential to learn the baseline Thug role, though he tends to decline the honor. Regardless we'll get reps for each of them to see how it looks. Their comfort level working away from the basket allows the team to feature Wall and Gil attacking the paint off the dribble. They'll have opportunity to hit wide open shots when left alone, or to out-quick their man off the dribble if played tight. And the coach won't directly cuss them out for trying.

Al Thorton is underrated, he showed up pretty well last year-- at least giving good effort to shed the label as a defensive slacker. Josh Howard, when healthy, is a known quantity of positive performance at both ends. Nick as a 2-3 sub shows long armed man-on defense, if not team concepts, and tends to score at a decent % despite those notable poor decisions.

Then we add an X-factor of an all-court defender Trevor Booker who was the point-man of the Clemson fullcourt press.

Plus Seraphin. Unknown dark horse candidate, but he was able to steal a starting role on the team that won his league championship in one of the better domestic leagues in Europe (behind Spain, then Russia, probably). This cat is our best hope at that baseline muscle role (if McGee continues to be a refusenik here). He's physically solid, has the desire to bang, and has better footwork than you'd expect.

It's absolutely fair game to doubt the crew coming into the season. If your success hinges on surprising positive production from Yi and Hilton Armstrong-- well there are a half dozen teams who can naysay that concept.

I'm just saying, I for one wouldn't be startled if we proved a few people wrong. We've got the personnel to play with a fair amount of depth, reserves to run all game long if everyone is healthy. Coursers more than bulldogs, but teams without running bigs may find themselves gassing late game.

It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

[Joe_Wiz]

McGee is such a big question mark, it's hard to know where to rate us. Add in Blatche & Howard recovering from injuries, and we may well start the season with the worst front court in the league. If Javale progresses like we all hope and the other two recover fully, we could end the season with one of the better front courts in the league. My crystal ball is foggy.

[hands11]

That a fair ranking. Nothing new here. We have a lot of upside but to the league, its just a lot of questions and a Rookie.

We know Drays game better than most so Im not surprised people are wondering about him.
I predict this year will be more about Dray and Gil that about Wall. Wall will get his press but its Gil and Dray who can have great years and get the press since they are already established players and know what to do in this league.

Just like I posted in another thread. This could be a rough start. Seraphin hasnt played. Armstrong looks to have a strong body but he hasn't shown a lot. I expect him to show something though. Looks more like a PF. We know McGee is a question.

But, if needed, Dray can play center but I don't think people are looking at our front court that way. Dray and Armstrong may get more minutes than many realize. And so will Dray/Yi

McGee could easily find himself getting no more than 22 minutes a game unless he show a lot more on D.

Dray, McGee, Seraphin, Armstrong and Yi

I think we will start the year with Seraphin not getting many minutes while he learns and while we give the more established players a chance to see what they can do. If one of them get hurt or doesn't measure up, then he will get his chance.

I could see something like this to start the year. Dray most likely be playing some center. Our post D will most likely be pretty bad until we see what Seraphin can which won't likely happen right away.
Yi, Armstrong and McGee better get focused on rebounding, setting picks and blocking out.

Min
Dray 35
Yi 20
McGee 20
Arm 20
Seraphin 1

Given those players, it easy to guess that McGee would be the first on to piss of Flip enough to make room for Seraphin to see some minutes after a couple weeks.

Question is, will McGee even make the starting line up and if he does, how long before he looses it.

[fishercob]

Doc, they actually won this game...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7SjxVEHL_s[/youtube]

Blatche does seem to show up bigtime for KG and the C's.

[hands11]

Where would we rank with Haywood.

Haywood/McGee/Armstrong
Dray/Yi
Josh Howard/AT

[doclinkin]

Doc, they actually won this game...

Yeah but Shawn Livingston scored 25 that game, which does nothing for my point. Though JaVale played well that game, I recall. Ditto 7Dray. Still late-season I think I remember KG was coasting or resting most of the game, the back-ups got heavy minutes. So, hard to take anything away from that.

In the game cited earlier though Al Thornton went for 24 and 11 if I remember right, Dray went off, and JaVale swatted 5 shots, all while the squad shut KG down with an 0-fer for most of the game. They lost in part to immaturity. IF we're talking the 3 frontcourt positions then these three at least are still on the team.

[Dat2U]

JaVale and Dray together is a daunting accumulation of length, fitting Flip's zone scheme quite well once they saturate and marinate in its principles. JaVale need only learn to stay at home and guard an area, instead of freelancing. I suspect as he adds weight he'll gain the confidence to do so, there's something satisfying watching a smaller player skid to a stop and backpedal off their dribble in fear. The fact that he starts the year as a likely starter means that he'll certainly get sufficient reps that he needn't scramble so hard to showcase his game. The reps will come, wait your turn big puppy.

I think what's being under estimated is that were going to be a matchup nightmare for some teams. We've got length & athleticism in spades. With Wall & Arenas on the perimeter we are going to run some teams right out of the damn building. A while we all know Javale's weaknesses defensively he's a definite shot blocking threat that teams have to account for.

I think we'll have similar success this year against Boston. There's no way KG, Shaq or JO can chase Blatche, Yi or McGee up and down the court all game. The first thing the coaching staff should be telling Javale is to "Beat your man down the court everytime!". With Wall pushing the tempo the opportunities should be numerous. Now were going to get killed our fair share of the time in the post defensively, especially in the half court but it goes both ways. Teams like Boston, Indy, Toronto, Detroit & Philly should have all sorts of trouble with our length, athleticism & skill upfront.

McGee will definitely have his moments. He may continue to struggle defensively but offensively I suspect he'll have some truly eye opening performances. And he's an incredible finisher around the basket. No one on the roster will benefit more from John Wall's presence than McGee.

I guess what I'm saying is it's not all bad. Maybe you can make a very legitimate case that we have the worst group of bigs defensively in the league. But offensively it should be a very different story.

And I submit, if we can make the playoffs with Antawn Jamison playing PF for 38 minutes a night for 4 years straight. The frontline we have as currently constructed can make the playoffs too!

[doclinkin]

I think what's being under estimated is that were going to be a matchup nightmare for some teams. We've got length & athleticism in spades. With Wall & Arenas on the perimeter we are going to run some teams right out of the damn building. A while we all know Javale's weaknesses defensively he's a definite shot blocking threat that teams have to account for.

I think we'll have similar success this year against Boston. There's no way KG, Shaq or JO can chase Blatche, Yi or McGee up and down the court all game. The first thing the coaching staff should be telling Javale is to "Beat your man down the court everytime!". With Wall pushing the tempo the opportunities should be numerous. Now were going to get killed our fair share of the time in the post defensively, especially in the half court but it goes both ways. Teams like Boston, Indy, Toronto, Detroit & Philly should have all sorts of trouble with our length, athleticism & skill upfront.

McGee will definitely have his moments. He may continue to struggle defensively but offensively I suspect he'll have some truly eye opening performances. And he's an incredible finisher around the basket. No one on the roster will benefit more from John Wall's presence than McGee.

I guess what I'm saying is it's not all bad. Maybe you can make a very legitimate case that we have the worst group of bigs defensively in the league. But offensively it should be a very different story.

And I submit, if we can make the playoffs with Antawn Jamison playing PF for 38 minutes a night for 4 years straight. The frontline we have as currently constructed can make the playoffs too!

I'm looking forward to watching the developing chemistry between McGee and Dray, nearly as eagerly as that of JWall with McGee, or Gilbert.

With JaVale penciled in as the starter next to 7DD we get to see the two play off each other and learn to complement eachother's games. Both seem to be putting on a jacket of muscle to add a little macho to the game, we'll see how that turns out. But by now they have a little familiarity with what each does well, and can work to make the other look good. Continuity breeds chemistry. There's a sequence in this vid here (~2:40 mark) of three straight Dray to McGee one-time passes finished with an alley oop. Some in transition, some in the half court.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5CD5R9gMY[/youtube]

With Dray showing range out to a fair distance, the spacing will open up underneath for McGee to get loose. This connection is our best chance at a virtually unguardable play, any time the opposing Big clears the paint and gives McGee a crease to run loose. That passing lane exists for no one else --overhead from the long armed Dray, to the air two feet above the basket to the soaring McGee. And Dray passing can see over any defense to make the read.

[hands11]

Two PG able to run and alley opp pass and defend.
One scoring machine SG who can also pass the alley op in Gil

Two high flyers who can flush it down in NY and McGee. I think Yi can flush it also.

One all around dude ready to bust out by doing what he finished the year doing for a season.
Dray is a huge key to this team. He can shoot with range, pass, block, rebound, defend the post, run, dunk and drive. We got Wall but I'm sure Dray is saying, THIS IS MY YEAR

Gil and Dray are the two most talented players on the team. They are the stars that are going to make the different in how this team performs. I would add Howard but we have to see what he has this year going off the ACL.

For me, Dray is the stud of this team that needs to claim his stage.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Two PG able to run and alley opp pass and defend.
One scoring machine SG who can also pass the alley op in Gil

Two high flyers who can flush it down in NY and McGee. I think Yi can flush it also.

One all around dude ready to bust out by doing what he finished the year doing for a season.
Dray is a huge key to this team. He can shoot with range, pass, block, rebound, defend the post, run, dunk and drive. We got Wall but I'm sure Dray is saying, THIS IS MY YEAR

Gil and Dray are the two most talented players on the team. They are the stars that are going to make the different in how this team performs. I would add Howard but we have to see what he has this year going off the ACL.

For me, Dray is the stud of this team that needs to claim his stage.

Add Thornton and Booker to the list of high flyers who can flush it down.

Andray is probably thinking this is his year. He's really got a total game and few outside of DC recognize it. He can score, rebound, pass, and defend. He's very unselfish, too. He's going to be throwing a lot of oops to McGee, Yi, and probably to Booker, too.

I'm going to assume Howard comes all the way back by February. He's a legitimate all star SF, who like Blatche will be looking to make a statement.

Those guys are not the only players looking to make a statement. Yi Jianlian will, too, in a contract year.

Seraphin and Armstrong are grinders who figure into the mix. If Seraphin is as athletic as advertised he could figure into the mix at C.

[nate33]

Andray is probably thinking this is his year. He's really got a total game and few outside of DC recognize it. He can score, rebound, pass, and defend. He's very unselfish, too. He's going to be throwing a lot of oops to McGee, Yi, and probably to Booker, too.

I have such high hopes for Dray. His game is so complete except for a consistency of effort and intensity. His passing ability actually reminds me a little of Larry Bird. If Blatche just had the drive to push himself, particularly on the defensive glass, I think he could average something like 17, 10 and 4. He could average more assists, but the offense just isn't going to run through him enough with Wall and Arenas on the floor and Flip at the helm.

[hands11]

Andray is probably thinking this is his year. He's really got a total game and few outside of DC recognize it. He can score, rebound, pass, and defend. He's very unselfish, too. He's going to be throwing a lot of oops to McGee, Yi, and probably to Booker, too.

I have such high hopes for Dray. His game is so complete except for a consistency of effort and intensity. His passing ability actually reminds me a little of Larry Bird. If Blatche just had the drive to push himself, particularly on the defensive glass, I think he could average something like 17, 10 and 4. He could average more assists, but the offense just isn't going to run through him enough with Wall and Arenas on the floor and Flip at the helm.

I believe it will. Wall is not a selfish player. I was surprised at how different his game in college looked compared to his game in HS where he was all street ballish.

I see a lot of sets to Dray on the wing just like last year to start the offense. I think they are going to run the offense through Dray then rotate to the open player where Gil will bomb and Wall will drive finish or dish back to Dray and other around the hoop for the flush.

That is what they will do if they are smart. Everything will flow and open up if they run the offense through Dray. Inside out. Thats when they aren't just running the other team to death on the fast break.

[pancakes3]

- i agree with dat. the SF isn't part of the frontcourt. they're swingmen - unless you've got a gerald wallace/shawn marion crash type.

- i don't think javale's a question mark at all. he'll put up something in the neighborhood of 12/7 on near 60% shooting and will probably block 2 shots a game. the question mark is that if he'll continue progressing in future seasons but for the upcoming season, i think we're all on the same page on what to expect from mcgee.

-dray to me is the biggest question mark. can he still be effective without having the offense run through him exclusively? he has fantastic post moves, but can he operate out of the pnr? is he willing to screen for arenas/hinrich setting up potentially career years from 3 for both of them? miller was open last season. if gil and kirk get THOSE open looks, you can bet they're banging it home.

- phoenix is clearly the worst in the league, right? even if you do want to count hedo, between him, frye, and hakim warrick (a crash SF playing starter PF minutes?) they've got ZERO interior presence. It'd be a way better FC if they had Lopez and Amundson imo.

- nets at 21 is being underrated. lopez and murphy are strong rebounders, even if murphy's boards come rather inexplicably like much of Jamison's used to. toss in terrence williams as a do-it-all, pseudo crash (hybrid of a hybrid?) SF and it's a pretty talented front court, no? definitely not bottom third.

- the heat at 5... wow. i don't want to get into it but something tells me yao ming gets a new career high this season.

[Dat2U]

My rankings of the frontcourts in the Eastern Conference.

1. Boston Celtics
Starters: PF Kevin Garnett / CE Shaquille O'Neal
Bench: CE Jermaine O'Neal / PF Glen Davis / PF Luke Harangody / CE Semih Erden / CE Kendrick Perkins - INJ
Notes: With the roster a year older and Perkins out they'll probably go to a 4 man rotation with starters seeing limited minutes. A very deep frontline.

2. Orlando Magic
Starters: PF Rashard Lewis / CE Dwight Howard
Bench: CE Marcin Gortat / PF Brandon Bass / PF Ryan Anderson / CE Daniel Orton
Notes: With 'Shard a steady decline, Bass & Anderson could see bigger roles. But honestly, this ranking is all about Howard.

3. Chicago Bulls
Starters: PF Carlos Boozer / CE Joakim Noah
Bench: PF Taj Gibson / CE Kurt Thomas / CE Omer Asik
Notes: Asik is one to watch as a rookie (like him better than Seraphin). Bulls may have the best rebounding team in the league.

4. Atlanta Hawks
Starters: PF Josh Smith / CE Al Horford
Bench: CE Zaza Pachulia / PF Josh Powell / CE Jason Collins
Notes: Horford will move to PF when they acquire another C. They don't have one yet so until then...

5. Miami Heat
Starters: PF Chris Bosh / CE Joel Anthony
Bench: PF Udonis Haslem / CE Zydrunas Illgauskas / PF Juwan Howard / CE Jamaal Magloire
Notes: Joel Anthony is a better option a C than given credit for. He'll hustle & play solid D. Good depth off the bench.

6. Milwaukee Bucks
Starters: PF Drew Gooden / CE Andrew Bogut
Bench: PF Ersan Ilyasova / PF Jon Brockman / CE Larry Sanders
Notes: A little thin upfront in terms of depth. Brockman was a good pickup on the cheap. Another solid rebounding team.

7. New Jersey Nets
Starters: PF Troy Murphy / CE Brook Lopez
Bench: PF Derrick Favors / CE Johan Petro / PF Kris Humphries / PF Sean May / CE Brian Zoubek
Notes: Nice starting duo with plenty of rebounding & scoring. Defense will be a big issue however. How quick with Favors develop?

8. New York Knicks
Starters: PF Anthony Randolph / CE Amar'e Stoudemire
Bench: CE Ronny Turiaf / CE Timofey Mozgov / CE Jerome Jordan / CE Eddy Curry
Notes: No depth. Not much defense but they should be entertaining. I expect a breakout yr from Randolph.

9. Charlotte Bobcats
Starters: PF Boris Diaw / CE Erick Dampier
Bench: PF Tyrus Thomas / CE Nazr Mohammed / CE DeSagana Diop / PF Eduardo Najera
Notes: Just the opposite of NY. Frontcourt has limitations offensively but plenty of length, defense and plenty of depth. If Thomas breaks out or Diaw finds his game they could be rated a bit higher.

10. Washington Wizards
Starters: PF Andray Blatche / CE Javale McGee
Bench: PF Yi Jianlian / CE Hilton Armstrong / PF Trevor Booker / CE Kevin Seraphin
Notes: Only NY can compete athletically upfront. Lack of depth & defense will be major concerns.

11. Philadelphia 76ers
Starters: PF Elton Brand / CE Spencer Hawes
Bench: PF Marreese Speights / CE Tony Battie / CE Jason Smith
Notes: A bad mix IMO. Brand has lost two steps. Hawes is incredibly soft. They really need a breakout from Speights. If they eventually decide to bench Brand & go small with Thad Young at the 4, I'd probably rate them a bit higher.

12. Toronto Raptors
Starters: PF Amir Johnson / CE Andrea Bargnani
Bench: PF Ed Davis / CE David Andersen / PF Reggie Evans / PF Joey Dorsey / CE Solomon Alabi
Notes: Bargs may have plenty of scoring opps this year but defensively it going to be a long year for him. Amir racks up fouls at an incredible rate. I suspect Davis might take Johnson's job before long.

13. Indiana Pacers
Starters: PF Jeff Foster / CE Roy Hibbert
Bench: PF Tyler Hansbrough / CE Solomon Jones / PF Josh McRoberts
Note: The recent Collison trade means they have a gaping hole at PF. They'll have to acquire another big before the season starts.

14. Detroit Pistons
Starters: PF Jonas Jerebko / CE Ben Wallace
Bench: PF Charlie Villanueva / CE Greg Monroe / PF Jason Maxiell / PF Chris Wilcox
Notes: Only real hope is that Monroe develops. It's going to be a very long yr in Detroit.

15. Cleveland Cavaliers
Starters: PF J.J. Hickson / CE Anderson Varejao
Bench: PF Leon Powe / CE Ryan Hollins
Notes: Jamison likely slides over to the 3 so they'll have scoring in the starting lineup. Varejao is solid & Hickson may develop some but the cupboard is pretty bare here.

Overall I have the Wizards 23rd in the league in terms of their frontcourt. Also ahead of Western Conference teams Minnesota & Phoenix.