The 2020 Draft

[5th pick sucks]

God, hope the kings get some of the players listed lol. Off topic, but can arenas play the 2? Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doclinkin]

What's the deal with this ----------- thread. Unseemly...

Get your head out of the gutter. Whats wrong with you ? That was nasty.

No sir. I just find it sorta disgusting tracking children as athletic commodities. The early obsessive focus is most often about some adult's hopes dreams and desires than it is about the kid's emotional health. Grown-ass men (EDIT) following children around kinda makes me ill. I've heard anecdotally about kids as young at 12 developing ulcers etc trying to live up to the demands of parents, coaches, jr-AAU, teams etc. And the lack of perspective quite often seem to be exactly the thing that emotionally ruins pro athletes, stunting their moral and emotional growth since they have been celebrated since pubescence for their physical abilities and success on court.

Granted the dad cited in the first clip makes all the right noises about what priorities come first etc. Regardless, how many child stars of whatever sport/media go on to be healthy well-rounded adults. Ask Tiger Woods.



[EDIT: for the hypersensitive, derailing what was an otherwise interesting conversation ...]

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

doc, I can say as a guy who showed really good athletic prowess in what's now called middle school, but who ended up a bench warmer on the HS football team; it can really be devastating to not meet high expectations.

The one kid who's being tracked by an adult as a sixth grader, that same kid who's "amphibious", and doing all the cone drills is the only one who's situation appeared to me to be exploitive. Adults are driving that kid and he's already got a hanger-on IMO. I feel your "disgusting" with that kid, doc.

However, the others, particularly the first kid who's dad seemed real mellow, appear to me any way to be prodigiously talentet, self-motivated kids. Maybe a couple are a little obsessive-compulsive with the reps they put in. Maybe there's some perfectionism to an unhealthy extreme going on ... or maybe not. I believe, however, they're showing a love for what they do and an extreme desire to be the best--and nobody's forcing them. The one kid who's dad, big guy with the beard, expressed that he shouldn't be playing ball in the house seemed very grounded to me.

For the most part, I just think they've got a "basketball Jones" doc. I'm looking for them to be something down the road.

On the case of Tiger Woods, doc, it could be chicken and the egg. I think he's always been a guy who can get extremely focused on one thing. I believe he's got an addictive personality. Seems like a guy who REALLY needs practice rounds of golf. Is that because somebody made him that way at 3 years old? I don't think so. I think Tiger could have OCD. So, when dude started womanizing it seems pretty reasonable to me that dude did it to the max.

[daSwami]

What's the deal with this ----------- thread. Unseemly...

Get your head out of the gutter. Whats wrong with you ? That was nasty.

No sir. I just find it sorta disgusting tracking children as athletic commodities. The early obsessive focus is most often about some adult's hopes dreams and desires than it is about the kid's emotional health. Grown-ass men like yourself following children around kinda makes me ill. I've heard anecdotally about kids as young at 12 developing ulcers etc trying to live up to the demands of parents, coaches, jr-AAU, teams etc. And the lack of perspective quite often seem to be exactly the thing that emotionally ruins pro athletes, stunting their moral and emotional growth since they have been celebrated since pubescence for their physical abilities and success on court.

Granted the dad cited in the first clip makes all the right noises about what priorities come first etc. Regardless, how many child stars of whatever sport/media go on to be healthy well-rounded adults. Ask Tiger Woods.

co-sign Doc. One of the biggest reasons Lebron has grown up to become such a narcissistic douche is because he was objectified, drooled over, and coddled throughout his formative years.

[hands11]

I was just doing youtube surfing on basketball and these little dudes came up in the search.

They are talented in a freakish way. Developing that talent isn't something they should shy away from.
As shown in the videos and posted here, there fathers said they were self motivated to do it. I thought it was great to see the fathers spending that much time with them. The one father was very God centered as was the kid.

And regardless of if they make it to the pros, they will take this experience with them. I wouldn't over react because it is basketball. What if it was violin that they excelled at ? I had a nephew like that and now he has a scholarship to a big university were he is going to music. Actually, I have several nieces and nephew doing that. One even got excepted to Harvard. Any young person that showed excelled skills for their age is going to get spotlighted. The key is the parents balancing this for them and where they take it.

But if you had an issue, you could have addressed it without going to the gutter. That is the part I take issue with. As for you bringing up anything personal to me regarding this, your the one whos head went there, not mine.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

hands, I didn't think anything about this thread was out of order before doc brought up the "kiddie porn" comment, which he related to objectifying and in my words exploiting kids.

The thread started out with just that one kid and his dad. Little kid with the big feet. I thought he's a prodigy and saw absolutely nothing wrong with him or his freakish work ethic.

Where the thread did take on the proportions doc alluded to, IMO, is when several other posts of other kids were added to the thread. It did become an "I'll bet on this kid" kind of thing there, and that's when doc first posted.

The sad truth is a lot of those little dudes are going have the hopes dashed and a few end like yesterday's child stars, broke, busted, and disgusted. Their parents might to them like Gary Coleman thought his parents did him. That happened with the young actors. It will surely happen to some of the young hoopsters.

[doclinkin]

But if you had an issue, you could have addressed it without going to the gutter. That is the part I take issue with. As for you bringing up anything personal to me regarding this, your the one whos head went there, not mine.

Word of the day, kids:

Metaphor: [met-uh-fawr, -fer]
–noun
1.
a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our god.”
2.
something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

What bugs me is less that one kid or another may be freakishly talented and develop those talents. Your violin analogy is a good citation, though you do hear of musical prodigies who go supernova under the emotional pressure to succeed. I knew kids who were in ballet growing up who flamed out-- uh, not in that way -- and wrecked before they were able to do anything with that talent, ended up miserable, some of that pressure was parent-driven.

You have to assume that some of tomorrow's supastars start early. No doubt. What bugs me is that we out here in internetland can actually hear about it, track it. That there is video on the kids, that Big Time colleges are already recruiting the kids, that tomorrow's parasites are already lining up helping out now for the hand-out later. That the kids are already being turned into commodities, sized up, measured, METAPHORICALLY lusted over IN A BASKETBALL SENSE.

I've got no problem with keeping an eye on highschool kids, who are realistically auditioning for a job already. Hell by age 16 they could travel to Europe and play Pro Ball if they want. But the voyeuristic sense of following aroudn little children to see if they will become something great that your team can use, eh, turns my stomach somewhat. All I'm saying.

[doclinkin]

On the case of Tiger Woods, doc, it could be chicken and the egg. I think he's always been a guy who can get extremely focused on one thing. I believe he's got an addictive personality. Seems like a guy who REALLY needs practice rounds of golf. Is that because somebody made him that way at 3 years old? I don't think so. I think Tiger could have OCD. So, when dude started womanizing it seems pretty reasonable to me that dude did it to the max.

I dunno. His Dad seemed like a bit of a stern standoffish taskmaster, he clearly loved his son and was most proud of him for what he could do with a club in his hands. To bring him on the Johnny Carson show when the kid was 3 year old seems a bit much. I suspect Tiger was never really 100% confident that his Dad loved him beyond that remarkable talent he displayed. That Tiger himself served as a big middle finger standing up for the people who never gave his dad proper respect, kept him apart from membership at certain golf courses etc despite the quite possibly terrible things this man ahd to do as Special Forces serving his country.

I suspect Tiger is not quite sure what value he has as a person beyond that talent. And he's been described as a bit of a 'Melvin', a socially awkward kid, in school as many kids are who specialize in that one thing to the exclusion of a normal social life. So when all of a sudden he becomes a multi-millionaire and receives attention from people who love him for his money, well he can fill up his emotional void (following the death of his father) with sensual distractions.

He is only valued for his skill. Even in his marriage, you know, it's probably unlikely Tiger would have met and married met Elin Nordegrin if he worked as a clerk for a rental car company instead of the pitchman for Buick. Clearly it's not like they were soul mates. It was pretty easy for her to take the check and run, then talk about how embarrassed she was. That said, right the last straw apparently was that he was boinking the neighbor girl. I can see how that woudl have ruined a trust beyond even the professional rent-a-booty.

I think after his Dad dies Tiger was left with a void to fill. Public adulation rings hollow if you doubt you are worth it. He never properly grieved and asked himself if this thing he does actually makes him happy. Yes he hates losing, makes him feel worthless, but I dunno that he actually enjoys the work.

In the larger sense, or back to the point at hand, yes narcissism can be instilled in a kid when the primary thing they are valued for is their public performance. You come to understand that your inner emotional core is less important than what people think about you. Granted, sometimes true genius requires unbalanced individuals. Or vice versa. Guys like Gilbert Arenas, you got to know he loves the game of basketball, but when he tells a story that at age nine or so his Dad broke his finger to prevent him from trying to swipe the ball ('That will teach you to stop reaching' -- well no doubt he no longer wants to play defense), **** you got to know the guy has some demons he's trying to work out in front of us. Trying to win public adoration to prove he is loveable, not worth abandoning in a crack house.

I dunno. I love to watch the product of these damaged and unbalanced lives. Occasionally you get a Grant Hill or Stef Curry who are clearly well-rounded individuals who joined the family business of athletics, but often you get narcissistic and destructive moral berserkers wreaking a path of havoc thru their own lives, and others'. It's compelling and interesting, but not necessarily healthy.

As adults I have no problem with it, I have no problem with kids developing skills in something they are admittedly great at. It's the camera that bugs me somehow. That's the part that feels unhealthy to me.

[hands11]

But if you had an issue, you could have addressed it without going to the gutter. That is the part I take issue with. As for you bringing up anything personal to me regarding this, your the one whos head went there, not mine.

Word of the day, kids:

Metaphor: [met-uh-fawr, -fer]
–noun
1.
a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our god.”
2.
something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

What bugs me is less that one kid or another may be freakishly talented and develop those talents. Your violin analogy is a good citation, though you do hear of musical prodigies who go supernova under the emotional pressure to succeed. I knew kids who were in ballet growing up who flamed out-- uh, not in that way -- and wrecked before they were able to do anything with that talent, ended up miserable, some of that pressure was parent-driven.

You have to assume that some of tomorrow's supastars start early. No doubt. What bugs me is that we out here in internetland can actually hear about it, track it. That there is video on the kids, that Big Time colleges are already recruiting the kids, that tomorrow's parasites are already lining up helping out now for the hand-out later. That the kids are already being turned into commodities, sized up, measured, METAPHORICALLY lusted over IN A BASKETBALL SENSE.

I've got no problem with keeping an eye on highschool kids, who are realistically auditioning for a job already. Hell by age 16 they could travel to Europe and play Pro Ball if they want. But the voyeuristic sense of following aroudn little children to see if they will become something great that your team can use, eh, turns my stomach somewhat. All I'm saying.

1-You obviously aren't man enough to admit your crossed an unnecessarily line so now your looking for excuses. Guess the mods are sitting on the side lines with their hands crossed.
2-We know what a Metaphor is and we know when we have seen a poor one.
3-Life is tough. Kids get dreams crushed. They try things and they fail. Sometimes they grow up in crappy homes with crappy parents or a crappy neighborhoods. Its a tough place out there. It's the lucky ones that have good parents around to teach them how to deal with the let downs, the pains as well as the successes. Look at Gil. Look at Wall. This is life. Most people have a tough time.

Look, all I did was stumble across some video on youtube when searching for basketball stuff and though it was interesting enough to post about as a joke about a future draft. I watch this cool show that recently started about "Super Human" The guy that started the a lot of the comic book characters is the MC. I find that kind of thing interesting. I kind of saw these videos the same way.
So I started a thread and others picked in. Harmless enough. It's not like we went out and shot the video ourselves. There was nothing wrong with the thread and you trying to make people feel dirty for posting in it is insane.

Sure, no one wants to see kids exploited and not allowed to be kids while they are kids but from what I saw, they seemed to have good fathers and were enjoying what they were doing. Good for them. I know plenty of people who felt punished by their parents who forced piano on them as a kid. At least these kids have decided this is something they enjoy. Heck, I was out on the courts every day just to stay busy and have fun. I wish my father would have brought something to the table regarding helping me get better. I got the sense that if they decided it was something they no longer enjoyed, they would be doing something else. Personally, I think that is a great gift a parent can give a kid. Help them discover what they love, apply themselves to it and deal with the challenges. Then transition to something else if they change their minds. Heck, my opera singing niece now wants to be a veterinarian. Decided preforming wasn't something she wanted to be do to get paid. And her parents talked with her and support her decision. That is what good parents do.

Yeah, its crazy out there. I see HS games listed on comcast and think . WTF. So I dont watch them.
Actually, personally, I dont even watch that much college basketball and I was also glad they raised the college eligibility age. But that wasn't the point of starting this tread. It was just ... wow... look at these talented little dudes.

If you felt like you wanted to bring up some issue about kids being exploited and over burdened at such a young age, you could have just said that. But no. You have to try to drag people through your mad up motivation by using a totally out of line "Metaphor"

[hands11]

On the case of Tiger Woods, doc, it could be chicken and the egg. I think he's always been a guy who can get extremely focused on one thing. I believe he's got an addictive personality. Seems like a guy who REALLY needs practice rounds of golf. Is that because somebody made him that way at 3 years old? I don't think so. I think Tiger could have OCD. So, when dude started womanizing it seems pretty reasonable to me that dude did it to the max.

I dunno. His Dad seemed like a bit of a stern standoffish taskmaster, he clearly loved his son and was most proud of him for what he could do with a club in his hands. To bring him on the Johnny Carson show when the kid was 3 year old seems a bit much. I suspect Tiger was never really 100% confident that his Dad loved him beyond that remarkable talent he displayed. That Tiger himself served as a big middle finger standing up for the people who never gave his dad proper respect, kept him apart from membership at certain golf courses etc despite the quite possibly terrible things this man ahd to do as Special Forces serving his country.

I suspect Tiger is not quite sure what value he has as a person beyond that talent. And he's been described as a bit of a 'Melvin', a socially awkward kid, in school as many kids are who specialize in that one thing to the exclusion of a normal social life. So when all of a sudden he becomes a multi-millionaire and receives attention from people who love him for his money, well he can fill up his emotional void (following the death of his father) with sensual distractions.

He is only valued for his skill. Even in his marriage, you know, it's probably unlikely Tiger would have met and married met Elin Nordegrin if he worked as a clerk for a rental car company instead of the pitchman for Buick. Clearly it's not like they were soul mates. It was pretty easy for her to take the check and run, then talk about how embarrassed she was. That said, right the last straw apparently was that he was boinking the neighbor girl. I can see how that woudl have ruined a trust beyond even the professional rent-a-booty.

I think after his Dad dies Tiger was left with a void to fill. Public adulation rings hollow if you doubt you are worth it. He never properly grieved and asked himself if this thing he does actually makes him happy. Yes he hates losing, makes him feel worthless, but I dunno that he actually enjoys the work.

In the larger sense, or back to the point at hand, yes narcissism can be instilled in a kid when the primary thing they are valued for is their public performance. You come to understand that your inner emotional core is less important than what people think about you. Granted, sometimes true genius requires unbalanced individuals. Or vice versa. Guys like Gilbert Arenas, you got to know he loves the game of basketball, but when he tells a story that at age nine or so his Dad broke his finger to prevent him from trying to swipe the ball ('That will teach you to stop reaching' -- well no doubt he no longer wants to play defense), **** you got to know the guy has some demons he's trying to work out in front of us. Trying to win public adoration to prove he is loveable, not worth abandoning in a crack house.

I dunno. I love to watch the product of these damaged and unbalanced lives. Occasionally you get a Grant Hill or Stef Curry who are clearly well-rounded individuals who joined the family business of athletics, but often you get narcissistic and destructive moral berserkers wreaking a path of havoc thru their own lives, and others'. It's compelling and interesting, but not necessarily healthy.

As adults I have no problem with it, I have no problem with kids developing skills in something they are admittedly great at. It's the camera that bugs me somehow. That's the part that feels unhealthy to me.

Brother, I think everyone would agree with what you just wrote. I just wish that was the first thing you wrote. But in large part, that is life. Everyone has to deal with these challenges. If you have great parents ( none are perfect ) and a great family, it makes it a lot easier. Those that have those things are truly blessed.

[doclinkin]

1-You obviously aren't man enough to admit your crossed an unnecessarily line so now your looking for excuses. Guess the mods are sitting on the side lines with their hands crossed.
2-We know what a Metaphor is and we know when we have seen a poor one.
...
Look, all I did was stumble across some video on youtube when searching for basketball stuff and though it was interesting enough to post about as a joke about a future draft. I watch this cool show that recently started about "Super Human" The guy that started the a lot of the comic book characters is the MC. I find that kind of thing interesting. I kind of saw these videos the same way.
So I started a thread and others picked in. Harmless enough. It's not like we went out and shot the video ourselves. There was nothing wrong with the thread and you trying to make people feel dirty for posting in it is insane.

Sure, no one wants to see kids exploited and not allowed to be kids while they are kids but from what I saw, they seemed to have good fathers and were enjoying what they were doing. Good for them. I know plenty of people who felt punished by their parents who forced piano on them as a kid. At least these kids have decided this is something they enjoy. Heck, I was out on the courts every day just to stay busy and have fun. I wish my father would have brought something to the table regarding helping me get better. I got the sense that if they decided it was something they no longer enjoyed, they would be doing something else. Personally, I think that is a great gift a parent can give a kid. Help them discover what they love, apply themselves to it and deal with the challenges. Then transition to something else if they change their minds. Heck, my opera singing niece now wants to be a veterinarian. Decided preforming wasn't something she wanted to be do to get paid. And her parents talked with her and support her decision. That is what good parents do.

Yeah, its crazy out there. I see HS games listed on comcast and think . WTF. So I dont watch them.
Actually, personally, I dont even watch that much college basketball and I was also glad they raised the college eligibility age. But that wasn't the point of starting this tread. It was just ... wow... look at these talented little dudes.

If you felt like you wanted to bring up some issue about kids being exploited and over burdened at such a young age, you could have just said that. But no. You have to try to drag people through your mad up motivation by using a totally out of line "Metaphor"

I'm curious why you're taking any of this personally. No one was attacking you. Not sure why you're so defensive about this topic. It's not like Chris Hansen is walking out of the back room saying: "handsy, sit down for a second let me talk to you..."

Apologies if it struck a raw nerve or something for some unknown reason... Can't please everybody.

<shrug>

[Dat2U]

It's not like Chris Hansen is walking out of the back room saying: "handsy, sit down for a second let me talk to you..."

[willbcocks]

I've been part of a few forums that were completely unmoderated, but both had the same two exceptions: posting personal information about another poster, or insinuating/accusing another post of being a child molester.

[barelyawake]

Lighten up, Francis...

[hands11]

1-You obviously aren't man enough to admit your crossed an unnecessarily line so now your looking for excuses. Guess the mods are sitting on the side lines with their hands crossed.
2-We know what a Metaphor is and we know when we have seen a poor one.
...
Look, all I did was stumble across some video on youtube when searching for basketball stuff and though it was interesting enough to post about as a joke about a future draft. I watch this cool show that recently started about "Super Human" The guy that started the a lot of the comic book characters is the MC. I find that kind of thing interesting. I kind of saw these videos the same way.
So I started a thread and others picked in. Harmless enough. It's not like we went out and shot the video ourselves. There was nothing wrong with the thread and you trying to make people feel dirty for posting in it is insane.

Sure, no one wants to see kids exploited and not allowed to be kids while they are kids but from what I saw, they seemed to have good fathers and were enjoying what they were doing. Good for them. I know plenty of people who felt punished by their parents who forced piano on them as a kid. At least these kids have decided this is something they enjoy. Heck, I was out on the courts every day just to stay busy and have fun. I wish my father would have brought something to the table regarding helping me get better. I got the sense that if they decided it was something they no longer enjoyed, they would be doing something else. Personally, I think that is a great gift a parent can give a kid. Help them discover what they love, apply themselves to it and deal with the challenges. Then transition to something else if they change their minds. Heck, my opera singing niece now wants to be a veterinarian. Decided preforming wasn't something she wanted to be do to get paid. And her parents talked with her and support her decision. That is what good parents do.

Yeah, its crazy out there. I see HS games listed on comcast and think . WTF. So I dont watch them.
Actually, personally, I dont even watch that much college basketball and I was also glad they raised the college eligibility age. But that wasn't the point of starting this tread. It was just ... wow... look at these talented little dudes.

If you felt like you wanted to bring up some issue about kids being exploited and over burdened at such a young age, you could have just said that. But no. You have to try to drag people through your mad up motivation by using a totally out of line "Metaphor"

I'm curious why you're taking any of this personally. No one was attacking you. Not sure why you're so defensive about this topic. It's not like Chris Hansen is walking out of the back room saying: ", sit down for a second let me talk to you..."

Apologies if it struck a raw nerve or something for some unknown reason... Can't please everybody.

<shrug>

Interesting "apology" but you still seem to be trying to pass the buck and not man up for your actions. You are the one that brought up the topic, not me. And then you tried to pass it on me. That my friend is personal to the nth degree.

But since your "curious".

I started the thread that you later called what you did. Not even worth repeating. That was for starters. The topic has everything to do with it. I'm sure everyone but you understands that.

To which I replied.. Get your head out of the gutter. Whats wrong with you ? That was nasty.
Which it was. I don't think that takes much explanation really.

To which you said.

Grown-ass men like yourself following children around kinda makes me ill.

I guess maybe you forgot you wrote that line. Hardly personal. Right. Specially considering other posted stuff and commented in the board also.

Well, since nothing offends you, what made me ill is a grown ass man like you bringing up the subject to begin with after seeing some video of young basketball players. But don't take that personally.

Show some level of class and maturity even though we are not all face to face. This is supposed to be a fun place to relax. I doubt that is the kind of thing that comes out of your mouth in person. At least I hope not and I think most if not everyone here things it has not place on this board.

And since you like words and the dictionary. Maybe you can use it to look up the work. apology.

[doclinkin]

Lighten up, Francis...

Do me a favor, since those are the two words that stung feelings or whatever, take out the words 'like yourself' then re-read everything. Here I'll go back and do it for you, post EDIT. I meant every word I said, no apologies needed. Nothing personal.

You might need to find another hobby to relax, dude. This one don't seem to be working.

[doclinkin]

One thing productive that came from the conversation: Stan Lee is hosting a show on History Channel called 'Superhuman' ? How come I never knew about that shxt? I don't watch all hella TV but I will definitely track down a show starring Stan the Man. Great guy, nice guy in person, tons of energy and even in his eighties he can command a room.

Tracking down episodes now...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz6PwUBXe6g[/youtube]

I actually met and filmed this guy in NYC in '93 after he defected from China, my kung fu teacher was creating training videos of various famous forms (Sifu Lily Lau's Eagle Claw style, etc). This guy at the time was a little sloppy, out of shape, smoking cigarettes, eager to drum up students to open a temple in Brooklyn. But his form was nice. Both open hand and spear forms. Nice guy, a bit of a shmoozer and self-promoter, used to being a superstar like many of the modern Shaolin demo monks. He looks taller in person than 5'3", but partly because of his upright stance, and he was a bit Buddha shaped at the time.

[montestewart]

I've been part of a few forums that were completely unmoderated, but both had the same two exceptions: posting personal information about another poster, or insinuating/accusing another post of being a child molester.

As long as these two exceptions are in place, our country will remain strong. I generally kind of like the stealth mods here though.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

On the case of Tiger Woods, doc, it could be chicken and the egg. I think he's always been a guy who can get extremely focused on one thing. I believe he's got an addictive personality. Seems like a guy who REALLY needs practice rounds of golf. Is that because somebody made him that way at 3 years old? I don't think so. I think Tiger could have OCD. So, when dude started womanizing it seems pretty reasonable to me that dude did it to the max.

I dunno. His Dad seemed like a bit of a stern standoffish taskmaster, he clearly loved his son and was most proud of him for what he could do with a club in his hands. To bring him on the Johnny Carson show when the kid was 3 year old seems a bit much. I suspect Tiger was never really 100% confident that his Dad loved him beyond that remarkable talent he displayed. That Tiger himself served as a big middle finger standing up for the people who never gave his dad proper respect, kept him apart from membership at certain golf courses etc despite the quite possibly terrible things this man ahd to do as Special Forces serving his country.

I suspect Tiger is not quite sure what value he has as a person beyond that talent. And he's been described as a bit of a 'Melvin', a socially awkward kid, in school as many kids are who specialize in that one thing to the exclusion of a normal social life. So when all of a sudden he becomes a multi-millionaire and receives attention from people who love him for his money, well he can fill up his emotional void (following the death of his father) with sensual distractions.

He is only valued for his skill. Even in his marriage, you know, it's probably unlikely Tiger would have met and married met Elin Nordegrin if he worked as a clerk for a rental car company instead of the pitchman for Buick. Clearly it's not like they were soul mates. It was pretty easy for her to take the check and run, then talk about how embarrassed she was. That said, right the last straw apparently was that he was boinking the neighbor girl. I can see how that woudl have ruined a trust beyond even the professional rent-a-booty.

I think after his Dad dies Tiger was left with a void to fill. Public adulation rings hollow if you doubt you are worth it. He never properly grieved and asked himself if this thing he does actually makes him happy. Yes he hates losing, makes him feel worthless, but I dunno that he actually enjoys the work.

In the larger sense, or back to the point at hand, yes narcissism can be instilled in a kid when the primary thing they are valued for is their public performance. You come to understand that your inner emotional core is less important than what people think about you. Granted, sometimes true genius requires unbalanced individuals. Or vice versa. Guys like Gilbert Arenas, you got to know he loves the game of basketball, but when he tells a story that at age nine or so his Dad broke his finger to prevent him from trying to swipe the ball ('That will teach you to stop reaching' -- well no doubt he no longer wants to play defense), **** you got to know the guy has some demons he's trying to work out in front of us. Trying to win public adoration to prove he is loveable, not worth abandoning in a crack house.

I dunno. I love to watch the product of these damaged and unbalanced lives. Occasionally you get a Grant Hill or Stef Curry who are clearly well-rounded individuals who joined the family business of athletics, but often you get narcissistic and destructive moral berserkers wreaking a path of havoc thru their own lives, and others'. It's compelling and interesting, but not necessarily healthy.

As adults I have no problem with it, I have no problem with kids developing skills in something they are admittedly great at. It's the camera that bugs me somehow. That's the part that feels unhealthy to me.

I missed this comment days back, doc. Well-reasoned response that deserved acknowledgement.

doc, like Tiger, my father did tours in Vietnam. Mine was an "advisor" before the US was really at war and he was a helicopter pilot. He wasn't special forces but one of the things he did share was how part of his job was to draw enemy fire. Guys in helicopters sitting on helmets so as not to get their nads blown off. Seeing guys get heads blown off. Stuff like that. Knowing my dad as I do, I can only imagine what he's not told me. (Later in life he told me how one time Vietnamese who ran a brothel that serviced both US and VietCong liked him enough to warn him of an impending VC attack ahead of time). But of my dad, I'd imagine he had a lot in common with Earl Woods as far as being aloof and demanding as a parent.

When I grew up I "had to" attain a college education with good grades. I clearly knew if I went to jail he wouldn't get me out, and if I didn't acheive in school I was a bad person. I knew I better not run from a fight. I do not ever recall my father hugging me when I was a child. I don't ever remember him telling me he loved me. I remember him telling me what I did wrong as a running back in youth football or how I wasn't "a semi pro" baseball player as he says he was in his day. I remember thinking my dad was the smartest guy on earth. I remember seeing him first in line of soldiers and seeing his military decorations. I remember how the neighbor who offended my mom and me over our dog was terrified of my dad. So, what about Tiger?

doc, your theory is Earl Woods was the taskmaster. I wonder if that's not true of Richard Williams, Venus' and Seranas' father. I wond'er if it's not true of a whole lot of athletes, entertainers, doctors, lawyers, etc. At what point do the children feel forced to train or be rejected for non acheivement? You could have a point thinking Tiger never felt loved.

I brought up a parallel between Earl Woods and my dad and there's one about me with Tiger. I went BERSERK promiscuity-wise when I was 33 years old. You've called me the bipolar bear because I've shared some history with you. When I heard Tiger had sex with THAT MANY women, I thought that makes no since at all. Sexual addictions we've seen play out with Jesse James, with Micheal Douglas in the past. But Tiger's? I am perplexed. You say he was filling an emotional void with Earl's death. I suspect more was at work.

My theory is like JFK supposedly expressed while being an adulterous president, and how I felt years back, Tiger didn't "feel right" until he got some. Releasing that tension seemed the way to go. I think pleasuring himself was really like an intoxicant. He could have been driven with such uncommon drive that the women certainly weren't complaining! Many of them kept quiet a LONG time and he couldn't have been paying them all that much. The sex was REAL good IMO. But doc, there's an emotional void for sure going on ....

What drove me back at the height of my being confused IN THE EARLY 90s was the thought that the only difference in a prostitute and a wife is you know up front how much the working girl is charging. She gets what she wants and you get what you need and everybody's happy. (I feel totally different now!) What I didn't even see was I was really out of control! Elin was probably really tired. Tiger might have really loved her, but he probably was so driven (and IMO chemically imbalanced and with emotional void at work) that he resolved to "shag" as many as he could. He "felt entitled",

doc, that's more than enough, I want Induveca and others to know that in 11 years of marriage to my second wife I was never unfaithful. I had to deals stuff, but my situation wasn't Tigers. I am not the richest guy around and I didn't look like him even when I was younger and well built. HOWEVER, I don't really see Tiger as all that strange.

He's not the only freak out there. He just got caught. The neighbor's daughter, doc? I think Tiger was delusional enough to think he was giving all the women the thrill of their lifetime. They could know they got to be with HIM. He said to that one waitress "You look like you're not having any fun at all."

doc, that sounds like something I would have said at that age. I agree with you that something was missing in his mind between him and Elin. Maybe that was what he thought would make him happy or was for his image or so he could have kids. But Tiger to me is just .... HUMAN.