How do you fix this team?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

My disclaimer on the above is Do Not put Javale in the blocks against Howard and expect anything other than Javale gets manhandled. Pretty much the same with Horford and Brand. Noah's way stronger on the boards. McGee can score over Noah or Brand, but Seraphin's just stronger in the post by a lot and Kevin posts up better. McGee gets served in a few matchups. Coaching has to know this ahead of time.

What I haven't seen is Seraphin with McGee. Those two with even Booker at SF would be huge and physical.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If McGee had a developed post-up game, the Wizards would run post-ups for him. If McGee had a jumper worth a damn, they'd get him jumpers. Flip isn't stupid. He's not running plays for McGee because he already knows the outcome. He doesn't need to "try it" so he can "get a look at it" during games because he has practice and scrimmages, and because he knows exactly what the players are working on (and aren't).

McGee -- with his current skillset -- is not an efficient post-up scorer that's merely being held back by incompetent coaching. He's lacking the skills necessary to be a go-to offensive player. IF he gets those skills, he'll have no shortage of plays run for him.

One game last year McGee had 25 and 15 in under 30 minutes off the bench. In the win over Boston, a great defensive team, McGee scored in a variety of ways. He hit jumpers. Broke down players off the dribble. If seen him drive three quarters court and finish. I've seen a nice hook from McGee. McGee has terrific hands for a big.

Nivek, I don't like labels, but you say Flip isn't stupid and Flip knows outcomes. What I truly believe is I've never seen a coach get less out of talented players. I guess Flip knew injured Stevenson was so much better than Young that Nick deserved all those DNP-CDs last season? Flip knows the jumpers by Blatche give him a better chance to win than hustle play by Booker? He's sure to rarely put Seraphin in with Booker and never McGee with Seraphin because he knows better? He knew three guards with Hinrich was good for Wall this season?

In my opinion, McGee's a good player and this season and especially last haven't been Flip's best.

Flip is not trying to win games. He's trying to develop young players -- in some cases, apparently against their will.

As for Javale's good game -- yeah, it was terrific. He's an incredible athlete, and everything went his way that night. Lots of guys can have a good game now and then. If you seriously think McGee could do anything approaching that on a nightly basis, I think you vastly overestimate his abilities. If he could do that every night, his coach would ADORE him (and be feeding him the ball).

McGee's 25 & 15 in 30 minutes has been done 17 other times since 86-87 (which is when b-r's box score database starts). (I don't really see the significance of not starting the game -- minutes are minutes. And, there's evidence to suggest that not starting actually would make this kind of thing easier.)

It's a good group of players. Oddly, Josh Howard did it in 2004. Two players did it twice -- Robert Parish and Shawn Kemp.

Here's the list (by points scored)

- Alonzo
- Dwight Howard
- Brad Daugherty
- Amare
- David Robinson
- Shaq
- Karl Malone
- Moses
- Bynum
- Kemp (x2)
- Ewing
- Josh Howard
- KG
- Parish (x2)
- Javale
- Cedric Ceballos

Of course, this has me thinking of something Hollinger mentioned at the Analytics conference. Something about the fallacy of arbitrary end points. Why is a single good game of 25 & 15 in 30 minutes or less more significant than 31 minutes or 32 or 29? Why is 25 points more significant than 24? Why is 15 rebounds more significant than 24?

And, totally irrelevant, but that 25 & 15 in 30 minutes or less thing happened to Detroit, Golden State, Houston and LA Clippers twice each.

How many of those were by non-starters? I merely quoted NBAtv, NBA.com, and AP writers that said noone since 1984 did that off the bench.

Nivek, that's one heck of a list of good players. So, Flip by your accounts knows the outcome is going to be bad because McGee is a low-efficiency player? Forget that one game. Check every game McGee's played over 30 minutes. What do you suppose the record of this team would be if McGee played 36 minutes pretty much every game?

He would average over three blocks. Washington's 11-9 in games where he's had three blocks.

I think about the 82 games stuff that folks want to discount and this and IMO it's pretty simple to deduce Flip's more than a little wrong about Javale. Kind of reminds me of EJ and Brendan. Hate a guy all you want, but if you want to win it might be good idea to be objective about the bigger picture.

[Nivek]

I don't have time right now for a full-bore study of McGee's production vs. minutes played. I'll get to it at some point.

None of the other guys came off the bench. As I wrote in that post, I don't the significance of that. It's a nice piece of trivia, but it doesn't mean anything. Except maybe that McGee's good game was a bit easier because he played fewer minutes against starters.

[nate33]

My disclaimer on the above is Do Not put Javale in the blocks against Howard and expect anything other than Javale gets manhandled. Pretty much the same with Horford and Brand. Noah's way stronger on the boards. McGee can score over Noah or Brand, but Seraphin's just stronger in the post by a lot and Kevin posts up better. McGee gets served in a few matchups. Coaching has to know this ahead of time.

What I haven't seen is Seraphin with McGee. Those two with even Booker at SF would be huge and physical.

If he can't match up on the blocks against Horford and Brand, then he isn't a good basketball player. (I'll grant that it's not reasonable to expect a guy to neutralize Howard.) If you've got no PF skills on offense, then you better damn well be able to handle the center position on defense.

And your calls for teaming McGee up with Seraphin are getting tiresome. Neither guy can handle the PF position offensively. McGee can't shoot, pass, dribble or even set picks right. McGee couldn't play PF on any team in this league. Why should he play PF here?

[DCZards]

How many of those were by non-starters? I merely quoted NBAtv, NBA.com, and AP writers that said noone since 1984 did that off the bench.

I think you missed Nivek's point, ccj. 30 minutes is 30 minutes whether you come off the bench or you're a starter. In fact, it can be argued that 30 minutes off the bench might be easier than 30 mins as a starter because you might not have to log as many minutes against the other team's starting center....like a Dwight Howard.

[Ed Wood]

Edit: Woah, hey this wall-o-text is looking goofy with all those replies between it and it's target, uh...

Dear CCJ,

Well I'm not Kevin so sorry about that but I think the big differences between your position and, well my position, probably Kevin's, whoever really, are that wins are much more based upon the quality of McGee's minutes than their quantity (excluding the fact that the alternative is Seraphin, who, much as I like him, is rarely going to have a net positive impact on the floor at the moment) and two that making McGee and everyone else on the team the organization cares about a better player is more important than being a slightly more successful but still really unsuccessful team at the moment.

Playing McGee 35 minutes a game, apart from being a route to a new nickname like Big Daddy Wheezy would win a few more games over the course of the year, maybe one or two over the remainder of the year. Doing so, however, would mean tolerating bad habits and sacrificing teaching him in order to play him more. Why? What's the point? Now that Stretch isn't the backup center those minutes McGee isn't in the game aren't being wasted on a guy with no future in the organization and are hopefully continuing to, slowly sure but slow is what we get with the young guys on this team, transform McGee's game.

It's not that the team or Flip or whoever should let McGee go hog wild, where you're right is that the team shouldn't have been so tolerant of Blatche by contrast. Some of that was probably the team's perception of how each guy learns and some of it was probably something of an indictment of Blatche, nobody tried too hard to fix him because they don't think they can. McGee though, he still needs this, and he gasses after a half dozen minutes consecutively on the court as it is anyway. The method is more important than the results right now.

[fishercob]

I don't have time right now for a full-bore study of McGee's production vs. minutes played. I'll get to it at some point.

None of the other guys came off the bench. As I wrote in that post, I don't the significance of that. It's a nice piece of trivia, but it doesn't mean anything. Except maybe that McGee's good game was a bit easier because he played fewer minutes against starters.

From some point last year:

Blatche is also the only NBA player to score 36 or more points, with 15 or more rebounds, four or more assists, two or more steals and two or more blocked shots in a game this season. The last player to reach those numbers was Al Jefferson, who had 36 points, 22 rebounds, five assists, four steals and two blocks on Feb. 7, 2009.

So yeah, it's trivia -- a statistical anomaly. Blatche sucks. Scott Skiles had 30 assists in a game, yet had a pretty mediocre playing career. The point is that the aggregate data is far, far more important than individual data points. And while the aggregate data tells us McGee has a long way to go, it also tells us he's improved. Patience.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

My disclaimer on the above is Do Not put Javale in the blocks against Howard and expect anything other than Javale gets manhandled. Pretty much the same with Horford and Brand. Noah's way stronger on the boards. McGee can score over Noah or Brand, but Seraphin's just stronger in the post by a lot and Kevin posts up better. McGee gets served in a few matchups. Coaching has to know this ahead of time.

What I haven't seen is Seraphin with McGee. Those two with even Booker at SF would be huge and physical.

If he can't match up on the blocks against Horford and Brand, then he isn't a good basketball player. (I'll grant that it's not reasonable to expect a guy to neutralize Howard.) If you've got no PF skills on offense, then you better damn well be able to handle the center position on defense.

And your calls for teaming McGee up with Seraphin are getting tiresome. Neither guy can handle the PF position offensively. McGee can't shoot, pass, dribble or even set picks right. McGee couldn't play PF on any team in this league. Why should he play PF here?

Millsap can't, Boozer can't ... It hasn't been tried and yet you've dismissed it.

My model is Curry/Chandler v Shaq. If you don't think putting Seraphin in for a few hard fouls and McGee in for weakside blocks wouldn't slow Howard you probably weren't watching Big Baby with Rasheed in last playoffs. Those two are experienced, proficient scorers, I realize. Seraphin scores inside and is much more athletic than Davis. McGee is twice the weakside blocke than Rasheed. Howard loves to block shots. Having bigs attempt to dunk on him would make him exert energy and probably foul.

I never said stay with those two players, nate. I think the objective is to put Howard on his heels a bit more than for him to have a complete pass with McGee at C and Blatche taking jumpers. The two bigs early and Blatche as the finisher, because Howard would have go avoid fouls is the way to go.

I think being dismissed is tiresome. Then again, I am not tired of telling you why I believe I am right.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Edit: Woah, hey this wall-o-text is looking goofy with all those replies between it and it's target, uh...

Dear CCJ,

Well I'm not Kevin so sorry about that but I think the big differences between your position and, well my position, probably Kevin's, whoever really, are that wins are much more based upon the quality of McGee's minutes than their quantity (excluding the fact that the alternative is Seraphin, who, much as I like him, is rarely going to have a net positive impact on the floor at the moment) and two that making McGee and everyone else on the team the organization cares about a better player is more important than being a slightly more successful but still really unsuccessful team at the moment.

Playing McGee 35 minutes a game, apart from being a route to a new nickname like Big Daddy Wheezy would win a few more games over the course of the year, maybe one or two over the remainder of the year. Doing so, however, would mean tolerating bad habits and sacrificing teaching him in order to play him more. Why? What's the point? Now that Stretch isn't the backup center those minutes McGee isn't in the game aren't being wasted on a guy with no future in the organization and are hopefully continuing to, slowly sure but slow is what we get with the young guys on this team, transform McGee's game.

It's not that the team or Flip or whoever should let McGee go hog wild, where you're right is that the team shouldn't have been so tolerant of Blatche by contrast. Some of that was probably the team's perception of how each guy learns and some of it was probably something of an indictment of Blatche, nobody tried too hard to fix him because they don't think they can. McGee though, he still needs this, and he gasses after a half dozen minutes consecutively on the court as it is anyway. The method is more important than the results right now.

The simple swap of treating McGee with his "Blatche eyes" and Blatche with his "McGee eyes" is pretty much all Flip need do to improve his win totals from 15 to 25 wins. This team should have ten more victories, Ed.

McGee is blessed with athleticism that wins out over time, just like Wall and Young. Andray has a lot of skill but he needs to be precise, smart, and team-oriented. Not go to all game long.

[dandridge 10]

My disclaimer on the above is Do Not put Javale in the blocks against Howard and expect anything other than Javale gets manhandled. Pretty much the same with Horford and Brand. Noah's way stronger on the boards. McGee can score over Noah or Brand, but Seraphin's just stronger in the post by a lot and Kevin posts up better. McGee gets served in a few matchups. Coaching has to know this ahead of time.

What I haven't seen is Seraphin with McGee. Those two with even Booker at SF would be huge and physical.

If he can't match up on the blocks against Horford and Brand, then he isn't a good basketball player. (I'll grant that it's not reasonable to expect a guy to neutralize Howard.) If you've got no PF skills on offense, then you better damn well be able to handle the center position on defense.

And your calls for teaming McGee up with Seraphin are getting tiresome. Neither guy can handle the PF position offensively. McGee can't shoot, pass, dribble or even set picks right. McGee couldn't play PF on any team in this league. Why should he play PF here?

My guess is that McGee and Seraphin together would look a lot like McGee and Booker together last night. Not good.

[leswizards]

Check games where McGee played 21:30 or less. Zero wins.

McGee shot 42% from the field in those 15 games (he normally shoots 53.7%). He shot 52.1% from the free throw line in those 15 games (he normally shoots 59.1%). In 26.5 mpg this season, Javale is averaging 9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 0.6 spg, 0.4 apg, 2.8 pfpg, and 1.2 topg. In those 15 games, Javale stats averaged over 26.5 mpg are 6.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.9 bpg, 0.5 spg, 0.2 apg, 3.5 pfpg, and 1.2 topg.

It seems to me that Javale played poorly in those games, and Flip benched him for it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm starting to think that CCJ is really Javale's mom.

Nah, but if I met Pam in the 80s I darn well coulda been his daddy.

[DaRealHibachi]

I'm starting to think that CCJ is really Javale's mom.

Nah, but if I met Pam in the 80s I darn well coulda been his daddy.

[penbeast0]

Anyone else here think CCJ is channelling the last few years of calling for EJ to play Brendan Haywood? Coaches want players to do certain things, primarily to listen and put in effort. If they don't, the coach tends to bench them even if it may not be the best thing in terms of talent on the floor hoping against hope that this time it will get through to them.

I do the same thing as a teacher.

Even if McGee being left out there for 30+ every night would get the team 5-10 more wins this year, would it be good for the franchise long term? (a. McGee's long term development, b. worse draft position). I have doubts about Grunfield and Flip too but don't think this particular issue is a firing offense at this time even if CCJ is right. Whether they should be here next season? That's a question.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Check games where McGee played 21:30 or less. Zero wins.

McGee shot 42% from the field in those 15 games (he normally shoots 53.7%). He shot 52.1% from the free throw line in those 15 games (he normally shoots 59.1%). In 26.5 mpg this season, Javale is averaging 9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 0.6 spg, 0.4 apg, 2.8 pfpg, and 1.2 topg. In those 15 games, Javale stats averaged over 26.5 mpg are 6.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.9 bpg, 0.5 spg, 0.2 apg, 3.5 pfpg, and 1.2 topg.

It seems to me that Javale played poorly in those games, and Flip benched him for it.

Your point that he played McGee less because he played poorly does contradict my claim that there was no difference, leswizards.

Note: 1-6 and 1-5 games in 17 and 13 minutes against Dwight Howard. One game of 1-4 against Dallas in thirteen minutes. One game of 0-4 in twelve minutes against Philly. in those four games, he got off to bad starts, with two against the best big in the league. Okay, good benching, Flip. McGee shot very poorly. Those were the least minutes he played.

In the eleven games where McGee played 17 to 21:30 minutes, McGee shot 27-50 , or 54% -- not far from his average.

My point is when McGee shoots 9 or so tImes plays 33 or more minutes, the Wizards are far better. I disagree with posters who say he's clueless and must be traded.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Anyone else here think CCJ is channelling the last few years of calling for EJ to play Brendan Haywood? Coaches want players to do certain things, primarily to listen and put in effort. If they don't, the coach tends to bench them even if it may not be the best thing in terms of talent on the floor hoping against hope that this time it will get through to them.

I do the same thing as a teacher.

Even if McGee being left out there for 30+ every night would get the team 5-10 more wins this year, would it be good for the franchise long term? (a. McGee's long term development, b. worse draft position). I have doubts about Grunfield and Flip too but don't think this particular issue is a firing offense at this time even if CCJ is right. Whether they should be here next season? That's a question.

By all means keep Flip til the end of this season. He is tanking now IMO. He is not even trying hard to win IMO. My calls to fire him are really geared at summer and beyond, moving forward. The culture of the team needs to change ASAP, after game 82 this season IMO.

As far as teaching goes, a teacher really needs to be a good learner in order to succeed. Differentiating instruction and adapting one's teaching for learners are among the challenges teachers face. Some folks are gifted and talented learners and others are special needs. Flip IMO is a teacher who would be really good with gifted and talented but flat out miserable with SPEDs.

[leswizards]

My point is when McGee shoots 9 or so tImes plays 33 or more minutes, the Wizards are far better. I disagree with posters who say he's clueless and must be traded.

I agree with you that McGee is better than most people give him credit for on this board. However, I agree with your critics who claim you place too much of the blame for McGee's short comings on Flip. McGee is a decent player who has a lot of potential, but has not reached as much of his potential as he should have largely because:

The guy wants to make SportsCenter highlights. He doesn't care that much about winning at the moment.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Your point of view seems fair and reasonable to me, leswizards.

[eitanr]

I may get some hate around here for saying this, but I really don't believe Flip is the problem. I just think the team needs to unload their "low Bball IQ" and/or "bad morale" guys. Namely I am speaking of both Blatche and Young. Nate is going to kill me, but I just don't love Young at all long term. He shoots fairly well off the ball, but really does little else as an all -around player to suffice even a decent long term contract. He's been in the league long enough to show his worth and the fact is he makes a lot of bone headed plays and just has such an aggravating way about him. Even when he's shooting well his shot selection is still poor and just doesn't ever play smart. McGee does some bone headed plays as well, fair, but his athleticism is off the charts and has progressed production wise enough over his career to warrant enough promise to be a future 5. Guys like McGee just don't come around often at all. He also has a great report with Wall...I'd like to see that combo, which again I see similar to the Rose-Noah duo, long term.

Back to Nick Young, I would just opt not to re-sign him period. I also feel if the team can find anyway to just unload Blatche from the roster, they'd benefit. My idea is to do a 3 way with Memphis and Indy. Ship him to Memphis, Indy gets Mayo, Wiz take on D. Jones' bad deal but net the 10th pick or so in the draft. Take a chance at a wing rook (T. Jones, P. Jones, Barnes, or Vesley could be there) and draft a big (Sullinger) with that top 5 pick and increase minutes to Booker off the bench.

Washington would be far better served instead of re-signing Young, to sign some solid veteran help to assist the youngins. A big and a nice 2-guard would be the ultimate. For a big to be part of the 4/5 rotation on the cheap (preferabley a solid defensive rebounding big who can shoot)...I'd suggest one of Josh McRoberts, Troy Murphy, Nenad Kristic, Joel Pryzbilla, Jeff Foster, Kris Humphries and for a potential stop gap SG I'd suggest one of Aaron Afflalo, Tracy McGrady, Mike Dunleavy JR...even if the Wiz couldn't get a wing, I'd be willing to try for some wings with our next picks (Singler and Nolan Smith) and roll with the below:
PF J. Sullinger/ J. McRoberts
SF T. Jones/ R. Lewis/ K. Singler
C J. McGee/ T. Booker/ K. Seraphin
SG D. Jones/ J. Crawford
PG J. Wall/ N. Smith

Either way I feel the team just needs a new attitude and it starts with unloading the "cancers", Blatche and Young. I don't feel McGee's attitude makes the team worse at all. I feel if you unload those 2 bad attitudes, Washington would at least be headed in the right direction.

[hands11]

.

I feel there's too much McGee hate on this board. The guy still has the skill set and has shown enough progress thus far in his career to likely be our future starting center. His chemistry with Wall is also something to note and overall the two should be able to produce similarly to a Rose-Noah sooner rather than later. We'd be hard pressed to find a better fit long term at the 5 slot right now than JaVale McGee.

I haven't seen a lot of "hate" on this board toward McGee. Disappointment, yes. But not hate. I think most posters here root for MGee to do well, as any Zards fans would. But he simply hasn't improved as much as some of us, including myself, thought he would have at this point (the third year) in his career.

As much as I hate to say it, I share the view of some others on this board, which is that Javele's mother is a big part of his problem. I think she's got him believing that he's better than he really is. And part of that belief comes from the fact that he's so incredibly athletic for a 7 footer. I think that has Javale believing that he doesn't need to work on the fundamentals, such as learning how to box it, because he thinks he can just get away with being tall, long and athletic.

Yeah, Mom McGee. I don't blame her for telling him he has huge upside. That is what Moms do. And I have no idea what she tells him or doesn't about working on fundamentals. What I do believe though is that he is mentally weak because Mom McGee was the shinning star and sucked all the air out of a room while JaVale was in her shadow. He is a young kid still. He can love his mom but he needs to learn to step out into his own space.

Send McGee to an Army or Marine boot camp. That is what I would do with him. Let some Drill Sgt work on him for 6-8 weeks yelling in his face after waking him up at 3am for a 5 mile run in the rain.