Summer League Thread: Game 4, Playoffs?!?!?

[Wizardspride]

Otto stroking the 3 ball.
https://vine.co/v/MQp17LebeXr

[payitforward]

So, next I'm gonna have to admit being wrong about the Nate Wolters trade.

Oh, please.... Rice isn't even in a class with Otto, who is looking like a very high draft pick should look. He's controlled and extremely efficient.

Rice, on the other hand, is an undisciplined one-on-one player. He's effective in the D League, and he's effective in Summer League, because he's playing against a lower level of talent.

Of course, it's possible that he "gets it" at some point and turns himself into an NBA player -- that would be great. But from what we hear he is frequently frustrated about lack of playing time. He might think he's better than he is, and that would not be a good sign.

I'd trade Rice for Nate Wolters seven days a week.

And I would trade Wolters & whoever else was drafted with that late 2nd rounder for Rice seven days a week.

Just because a player is a good shot creator doesn't mean he's undisciplined or "doesn't get it".

And why would anyone be upset about a young player who wants playing time? I'd probably be more worried if he didn't get upset.

Well, you are right, any player should playing time. But, the scuttlebutt is more about the frustration, complaints, and "unprofessional" stuff than about wanting to play. All the same, we aren't really in a position to judge that stuff; we don't see it. So, let that go.

Rice has played quite well in SL. On the numbers, he and Porter have been virtually identical overall. They've played almost the exact same number of minutes (1 more minute for Rice). Their shooting has been virtually the same, w/ Porter just slightly better -- getting 63 points on 55 shots vs. Rice tallying 58 on 52. Rebounding also very close -- Rice has had 5 more defensive boards, but Porter has had 3 more offensive boards. Turnovers minus steals again were very close, w/ Porter just a little better at a -7 vs. Rice's -8.

The rest of their numbers are quite different -- Rice fouled much more but made up for it with a few more assists and a couple of extra blocks. The big difference is in FTAs, where Rice got to the line 44 times vs. Porter's 11 times.

This reflects Porter's overwhelming concentration on one-on-one, "get his own shot" offensive basketball. Against the SL caliber defenders, this worked quite well. But I watched 3 of the 4 games and part of the 4th, and the offense I saw really didn't look like it would work in the NBA.

He hasn't shown a quick first move, and he doesn't look especially fast either. He relies on being shifty and clever, what you could call "ego" basketball. I've seen a lot of "look at the moves I can make" stuff, which would get him nowhere in the NBA but got him to the line over and over in SL.

Hey, I could be wrong, and YMMV! But, haven't we all witnessed a good amount of this very kind of SL success that didn't translate? We'll get to see -- and here's hoping he's the exception that proves the rule! But he has quite a long road to travel before he's shown anything like what Nate Wolters has already established in the NBA. You think Milwaukee would take GRIII for Wolters? I really don't think so. Don't think any GM would make that trade for Glen. Sorry.

[payitforward]

So, next I'm gonna have to admit being wrong about the Nate Wolters trade.

Oh, please.... Rice isn't even in a class with Otto, who is looking like a very high draft pick should look. He's controlled and extremely efficient.

Rice, on the other hand, is an undisciplined one-on-one player. He's effective in the D League, and he's effective in Summer League, because he's playing against a lower level of talent.

Of course, it's possible that he "gets it" at some point and turns himself into an NBA player -- that would be great. But from what we hear he is frequently frustrated about lack of playing time. He might think he's better than he is, and that would not be a good sign.

I'd trade Rice for Nate Wolters seven days a week.

And I would trade Wolters & whoever else was drafted with that late 2nd rounder for Rice seven days a week.

Just because a player is a good shot creator doesn't mean he's undisciplined or "doesn't get it".

And why would anyone be upset about a young player who wants playing time? I'd probably be more worried if he didn't get upset.

Well, you are right, any player should playing time. But, the scuttlebutt is more about the frustration, complaints, and "unprofessional" stuff than about wanting to play. All the same, we aren't really in a position to judge that stuff; we don't see it. So, let that go.

Rice has played quite well in SL. On the numbers, he and Porter have been virtually identical overall. They've played almost the exact same number of minutes (1 more minute for Rice). Their shooting has been virtually the same, w/ Porter just slightly better -- getting 63 points on 55 shots vs. Rice tallying 58 on 52. Rebounding also very close -- Rice has had 5 more defensive boards, but Porter has had 3 more offensive boards. Turnovers minus steals again were very close, w/ Porter just a little better at a -7 vs. Rice's -8.

The rest of their numbers are quite different -- Rice fouled much more but made up for it with a few more assists and a couple of extra blocks. The big difference is in FTAs, where Rice got to the line 44 times vs. Porter's 11 times.

This reflects Porter's overwhelming concentration on one-on-one, "get his own shot" offensive basketball. Against the SL caliber defenders, this worked quite well. But I watched 3 of the 4 games and part of the 4th, and the offense I saw really didn't look like it would work in the NBA.

He hasn't shown a quick first move, and he doesn't look especially fast either. He relies on being shifty and clever, what you could call "ego" basketball. I've seen a lot of "look at the moves I can make" stuff, which would get him nowhere in the NBA but got him to the line over and over in SL.

Hey, I could be wrong, and YMMV! But, haven't we all witnessed a good amount of this very kind of SL success that didn't translate? We'll get to see -- and here's hoping he's the exception that proves the rule! But he has quite a long road to travel before he's shown anything like what Nate Wolters has already established in the NBA. You think Milwaukee would take GRIII for Wolters? I really don't think so. Don't think any GM would make that trade for Glen. Sorry.

[Hidden Eye]

So creating your own shot and taking contact isn't good in the NBA ? ok then.....

[payitforward]

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Edit: I wouldn't take it as far as PIF is taking it. I'm not of the opinion that GR Jr can't be effective at the NBA level, or that he's an incorrigible headcase or something. I think he can be a really useful spark off the bench for us, as soon as this season.

If that's how my comments came off, my bad -- how could I be categorical about this kid, that would be wrong.

But, no, he hasn't played better than Otto in SL, just differently. And the things that have made him effective (and that would make him, as you say, "a really useful spark off the bench", just don't look like they'll translate at all. E.g. he's averaged 11 FTAs per game -- please don't tell me you think he'll get those calls in the league!

[payitforward]

So creating your own shot and taking contact isn't good in the NBA ? ok then.....

No, it's great, of course. And if he can find some SL-level players in the league to help him do that, why then... he's a superstar.

Only, here's a challenge -- show me one other guy who excelled in SL in this same way and went on to do the same thing in the NBA. Not asking a lot. For example, not asking for 2 such guys -- just one.

[Hidden Eye]

So creating your own shot and taking contact isn't good in the NBA ? ok then.....

No, it's great, of course. And if he can find some SL-level players in the league to help him do that, why then... he's a superstar.

Only, here's a challenge -- show me one other guy who excelled in SL in this same way and went on to do the same thing in the NBA. Not asking a lot. For example, not asking for 2 such guys -- just one.

Not everybody is going to be SL only they are gonna be playing for their teams. Again Porter is doing the same on a lower scale I guess he isn't that great either. Most of the SL guys aren't going to get PT unless they have a good reason to. Rice is going to get minutes so what we see in the SL is what he's gonna do in the NBA games. Not sure who plays like Rice not invested into the SL like that.

[Ball4life32]

...
Edit: I wouldn't take it as far as PIF is taking it. I'm not of the opinion that GR Jr can't be effective at the NBA level, or that he's an incorrigible headcase or something. I think he can be a really useful spark off the bench for us, as soon as this season.

If that's how my comments came off, my bad -- how could I be categorical about this kid, that would be wrong.

But, no, he hasn't played better than Otto in SL, just differently. And the things that have made him effective (and that would make him, as you say, "a really useful spark off the bench", just don't look like they'll translate at all. E.g. he's averaged 11 FTAs per game -- please don't tell me you think he'll get those calls in the league!

He may not average 11 FT'S a game but he will get to the line.

BTW when I saw him in high school I wasn't sure if his game would translate to the college level because he has always had a unique type game...well after watching him 3 years at Ga Tech and in the D league he proved me wrong. Excited to see how he will do in the NBA with minutes.

[payitforward]

...
Edit: I wouldn't take it as far as PIF is taking it. I'm not of the opinion that GR Jr can't be effective at the NBA level, or that he's an incorrigible headcase or something. I think he can be a really useful spark off the bench for us, as soon as this season.

If that's how my comments came off, my bad -- how could I be categorical about this kid, that would be wrong.

But, no, he hasn't played better than Otto in SL, just differently. And the things that have made him effective (and that would make him, as you say, "a really useful spark off the bench", just don't look like they'll translate at all. E.g. he's averaged 11 FTAs per game -- please don't tell me you think he'll get those calls in the league!

He may not average 11 FT'S a game but he will get to the line.

BTW when I saw him in high school I wasn't sure if his game would translate to the college level because he has always had a unique type game...well after watching him 3 years at Ga Tech and in the D league he proved me wrong. Excited to see how he will do in the NBA with minutes.

Me too. Of course, he'll have to earn those minutes in practice. I wish him well.

This thread started w/ CCJ joking that he might have to regret opposing the trade of Nate Wolters (and another pick) for Rice (which I also opposed). As a rookie, Wolters showed he can be a solid NBA backup point guard. That's not necessarily his ceiling, but it's something he's established -- as a rookie. So far, Rice hasn't established anything. That was my only real point.

Lets hope he gets minutes this season and shows well. That'd be great.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

What time is the game tonight? And is it on TV?

[FAH1223]

What time is the game tonight? And is it on TV?

10 PM

NBATV

[JWizmentality]

Preview of the 2015 NBA finals?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It was reported as a "sore right knee"

Also I'm not really seeing the difference between drafting for need vs fit other than that fit is merely a projection of best-case-scenario need but not necessarily a separate entity.

Thanks, cakes. I hope Wayns is able to play on Saturday, otherwise it might be the end of the line for the Summer Wiz.

On Fit vs. Need, I can get pedantic, but the essence is this:

Need is going into the draft saying "We have a gaping hole at PF. We need to draft a PF no matter what." And then drafting a PF when your turn comes up, even if your estimate of the best 10 players on the board shows that none of them are PFs, so you take #11, who is a PF.

Fit does encompass Need, but only as one factor, not the deciding factor. Fit says - "We have a gaping hole at PF. Ideally, we'd like to draft a PF, but it has to be the right type of PF. And if it's too much of a reach to get a 'true' PF, then we'll take another guy who fits into what we're doing (not necessarily the BPA) and work on getting a PF some other way."

For example, if I went into a draft with a hole at SG, I might prefer to draft a SG. But if the "best" SG on the board at my draft slot (say, 18 or so) was Nick Young, I might go against the Need (SG) to draft another player, because the "best" SG on the board would not be a good fit. Of course, I would have taken - and said so at the time - different SG, one Afflalo from UCLA. But that's water under the bridge...

Point is, if you're building a precision team on offense & defense, you value BBIQ over athleticism - that's your Fit. You might pass on the "best" player if the next guy or the one after that would fit better into what you're trying to build. OTOH, if you have a team full of role players, you might need that one go-to guy (*cough* Melo * ) to put you over the top, whereas another team would go a different direction for concern of clashing with an alpha guy who's already in place.

There's no science there, but then there's really little science to the BPA, since it all relies on an accurate assessment of "Best".

Anyway, just wanted to chime in an And1 to your comment that Porter looks like the kind of guy who will go really well next to Wall & Beal - and, to a certain extent, Gortat going forward, plus all of the midlife crisis vets that we added this summer. (Other than Pierce, the ones who are not yet to the AARP category, but well on their way...)

Not me. I hate to be wrong. I want Burton to play and ball like he's capable of playing.

Just so I can say I told you guys so.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If that's how my comments came off, my bad -- how could I be categorical about this kid, that would be wrong.

But, no, he hasn't played better than Otto in SL, just differently. And the things that have made him effective (and that would make him, as you say, "a really useful spark off the bench", just don't look like they'll translate at all. E.g. he's averaged 11 FTAs per game -- please don't tell me you think he'll get those calls in the league!

He may not average 11 FT'S a game but he will get to the line.

BTW when I saw him in high school I wasn't sure if his game would translate to the college level because he has always had a unique type game...well after watching him 3 years at Ga Tech and in the D league he proved me wrong. Excited to see how he will do in the NBA with minutes.

Me too. Of course, he'll have to earn those minutes in practice. I wish him well.

This thread started w/ CCJ joking that he might have to regret opposing the trade of Nate Wolters (and another pick) for Rice (which I also opposed). As a rookie, Wolters showed he can be a solid NBA backup point guard. That's not necessarily his ceiling, but it's something he's established -- as a rookie. So far, Rice hasn't established anything. That was my only real point.

Lets hope he gets minutes this season and shows well. That'd be great.

--I loved the way in the NCAAs that Wolters lit up Wroten, Ross and other future NBA players. He put up extremely impressive stats that projected to future success.

--Wolters got caught up in a numbers game in Milwaukee, but he had the highest +/- on the team IIRC. Wolters struggled with his outside shot, but he can run and offense and he competes at both ends.

--I wanted him for the Wizards because I could see him playing alongside Wall or Beal. He's a young guy, unlike 37-year old Andre Miller. I envisioned Wolters sticking around the league a good while. Time will tell.

I don't get caught up downing one player and building up another. Rice Jr is a Wizard. I want him to be great. Porter is a Wizard. I want the same for him. I don't care which player is more talented. They have very distinctly different body types, different athleticism, different mindsets, and they have different skills. I'm just happy they seem to both be playing very well.

I downed Rice Jr. on draft night in 2013 because I read a lot of negativity into his background. Seemed like just the opposite of the type of dude Wolters is. One guy's a grinder, steady Eddie, WYSIWYG type player. The other guy a mercurial talent. Coach didn't want him around. Rides with dudes with guns. Guns? Remember Gilbert and Javaris? As far as I was concerned the guys sounded like he put the knuck in knucklehead. No thanks, to having him on the team.

Now, I think he's been a Wizard for a year. He's an NBA player. His coach's and teammates support him. I HAVE MADE MISTAKES MYSELF. So, why hold a guy's past against him? I love his D-League stats! Dude played well there. He's got all the physical tools to be a decent NBA player. Scores and rebounds. Gets to the line. What's not to like?

[nuposse04]

The Rice/Porter debate pretty much sums up wiz fans I think. We have two nice "surprises" (I think they are both exceeding some expectations TBH given the lack of PG play and productive low post bigs) and yet we still want to completely dismiss one or the other for w/e reasons.

I think Porter has skills that translate more fluidly over, but Glen has shown he can hit the 3 pt shot, it was completely weird to me he wasn't hitting it in the few games he had at the NBA level. Will he get all those FT calls? Hell no, but we've been desperate for a guy who can create some of the dribble and actually can score, and to boot he can FINISH through contact. Not to mention both Porter and Glen are getting opposing defenses attention first and foremost. I can't help but think they'll get way better looks even with the 2nd unit.

The only thing that worries me about Glen is the defensive rotations, he gets lost at times on switches but doesn't get burned at the SL level, hopefully Randy can rectify that.

Also, when comparing both Porter and Glen, keep in mind Glen is 23, while Porter is 21.

But for now, I'm just going to enjoy the fact that we have two seemingly nice wings developing.

[payitforward]

...
I don't get caught up downing one player and building up another. Rice Jr is a Wizard. I want him to be great. Porter is a Wizard. I want the same for him. I don't care which player is more talented. They have very distinctly different body types, different athleticism, different mindsets, and they have different skills. I'm just happy they seem to both be playing very well....

And I *did* let myself get caught up in a pointless comparison -- my bad; I apologize.

I too hope GRII becomes a terrific NBA player -- for us! -- and ditto Porter. They've both played extremely well in SL.

[relinquishy]

Where can I watch this game? NBA TV says the game is not available in my area, and I live in Baltimore. wtf!

[SUPERBALLMAN]

I got same msg in dc black out

[relinquishy]

I got same msg in dc black out

Wow this is bs. We finally qualify for extra SL games and we can't even watch one of them.

[hands11]

I got same msg in dc black out

Wow this is bs. We finally qualify for extra SL games and we can't even watch one of them.

Its online.

Burton has been a bust.

Vaughn has over taken him.

And I'm liking Theis