Whos more overrated Chicago or Cleveland?

ozthegandp · Post #41 » by **ozthegandp** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:45 pm

also i think the pacers are the Kings of this decade. One hit wonders who fade after one good post season.

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Dat2U · Post #42 » by **Dat2U** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:45 pm

Have people already forgot the Bulls won 48 games with smoke, mirrors and a dash of D.J. Augustin? Say what you will about their postseason aspirations but as long as Thibs is coach & Joakim Noah is in the middle I think you can pencil in Chicago for 50+ wins next season and feel pretty confident about it.

deneem4 · Post #43 » by **deneem4** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:02 pm

Cleveland even with kevin love...
Kyrie
lebron
love
is good but isn't balanced both ways like
Westbrook
durant
ibaka
we learned from the Rockets defense is needed to win games. Lebron won't like playing with these guys because they won't take a back seat like wade and bosh.expect to see his points decline as well as assists and rebounds for them to win games...if his numbers stay the same or improve they will lose because it'll knock love and kyrie game off...Lebron needs to adjust to them and be the glue guy, they don't need to adjust to lebron....atleast not this lebron...

chicago was good without rose and deng...atleast pau Mcbuckets mirotic and some sort of rose are improvements

TheBabyMaker · Post #44 » by **TheBabyMaker** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:55 pm

ozthegandp wrote:Chicago is the most overrated just because the bulls have the biggest and most obnoxious homer fan base in the league. Rose coming back the same player is a fantasy. Pau tends to play his best alongside another dominant big, but two bigs wont mesh with Rose's game. And thibs might be a defensive genius but his a offensive creativity is subpar. I expect the bulls to have a very rude awakening.

As for the Cavs as curently constructed, they suck and I think most people realize that. But having the best player in the league always gives you some legitamacy.

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You sure about that. Raptors and Knicks fans has to be the worst in the league. You on point with the Bulls team though (I don't believe this teams hype). Cavs will have the best record in the East. Something like 54 wins

I_Like_Dirt · Post #45 » by **I_Like_Dirt** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:25 pm

Dat2U wrote:Have people already forgot the Bulls won 48 games with smoke, mirrors and a dash of D.J. Augustin? Say what you will about their postseason aspirations but as long as Thibs is coach & Joakim Noah is in the middle I think you can pencil in Chicago for 50+ wins next season and feel pretty confident about it.

I'm willing to pencil the Bulls in for 44-49 wins thanks to Thibs and Noah, but not more and I think people would have to be believers in Rose coming back to somewhere close to 100% to believe in more. That team is way too thin and lacks the elite talent to be a surefire 50+ win team. Rose is like a powerball lottery ticket for the Bulls but in all likelihood they don't get a superstar out of him. Gasol isn't particularly mobile at this point, his passing duplicates Noah's and he isn't exactly a defensive phenom to take over from Boozer.

All told, I think Cleveland is rated about right, the Bulls are a bit overrated, and if there's an underrated team in the east, it's the Pacers, who I expect will finish ahead of the Bulls. After the Cavs and Pacers, I see the Wizards, Bulls, Raptors, Heat and Hawks jockeying for position with health playing a key factor in who places where, and the Wizards and Raptors having the advantage of much better depth than those other team making them less prone to injury collapse. It's a bid odd to say that about the Wizards, but when the competition is relying on the likes of Wade, Deng, Horford, Rose and Gasol, it's tough not to beat that bar. The Bobcats, Pistons, Nets, Knicks and maybe the Magic and Bucks will be scrapping it out for the last playoff spot, although more than one of them might get in if a team or two from the top 7 comes unglued due to injuries (and it doesn't take much with some of the thin teams that are out there).

blazinskillz · Post #46 » by **blazinskillz** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:55 pm

I've always said that Kyrie was a rich mans Mo Williams with Baron Davis handles. LeBron and Mo williams player great together. I think Chicago has a lot of unproven players.

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dckingsfan · Post #47 » by **dckingsfan** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:58 pm

Dat2U wrote:Have people already forgot the Bulls won 48 games with smoke, mirrors and a dash of D.J. Augustin? Say what you will about their postseason aspirations but as long as Thibs is coach & Joakim Noah is in the middle I think you can pencil in Chicago for 50+ wins next season and feel pretty confident about it.

And they didn't become better, they became much better.

50% Rose > Augustin
Noah, Gasol, Gibson, Mirotic >>>> Noah, Boozer, Gibson
And then they added McDermott at the to Dunleavy and Butler...

Note sure how folks think they won't surpass 48 wins... guess you have to bank on Rose going down for 50 games?

FreshyFlames · Post #48 » by **FreshyFlames** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:51 pm

Crazy how undervalued LeBron is on this board. People must still be sour from those playoff losses to those crappy Cavalier teams LeBron was on.

Higga · Post #49 » by **Higga** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:35 pm

Easily Chicago. Lebron instantly makes Cleveland a contender. I mean those previous Cleveland teams we're probably worse than this one.

Chicago has done what, sign Gasol? Good player, but old. Too many people banking on McDermott, he'll bust in the NBA. Rose...who knows, he hasn't been healthy in years.

Post #50 » by **Ruzious** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:17 pm

Higga wrote:Easily Chicago. Lebron instantly makes Cleveland a contender. I mean those previous Cleveland teams we're probably worse than this one.

Chicago has done what, sign Gasol? Good player, but old. Too many people banking on McDermott, he'll bust in the NBA. Rose...who knows, he hasn't been healthy in years.

Coach K has been raving about Rose, but what does he know? Gasol was still one of the top few bigs in the NBA last season albeit when healthy - he was a steal, imo. McDermott doesn't have to be special to help; all they need from him (in order to improve) is a guy who's solid offensively and makes you guard hm.

Hidden Eye · Post #51 » by **Hidden Eye** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:20 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Higga wrote:Easily Chicago. Lebron instantly makes Cleveland a contender. I mean those previous Cleveland teams we're probably worse than this one.

Chicago has done what, sign Gasol? Good player, but old. Too many people banking on McDermott, he'll bust in the NBA. Rose...who knows, he hasn't been healthy in years.

Coach K has been raving about Rose, but what does he know? Gasol was still one of the top few bigs in the NBA last season albeit when healthy - he was a steal, imo. McDermott doesn't have to be special to help; all they need from him (in order to improve) is a guy who's solid offensively and makes you guard hm.

Gasol who has Injury problems playing at a high level isn't going to happen. Gasol playing PF is out of his position at this stage he won't be able to keep up with PFs .Chicago has nobody worth mentioning at the SG/SF position who will make a big difference. Solid starting 5 but it goes beyond that with Rose who is unproven what he can play at this point. Playing a full season taking contact isn't going to happen.

dckingsfan · Post #52 » by **dckingsfan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:24 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Higga wrote:Easily Chicago. Lebron instantly makes Cleveland a contender. I mean those previous Cleveland teams we're probably worse than this one.

Chicago has done what, sign Gasol? Good player, but old. Too many people banking on McDermott, he'll bust in the NBA. Rose...who knows, he hasn't been healthy in years.

Coach K has been raving about Rose, but what does he know? Gasol was still one of the top few bigs in the NBA last season albeit when healthy - he was a steal, imo. McDermott doesn't have to be special to help; all they need from him (in order to improve) is a guy who's solid offensively and makes you guard hm.

Exactly, and don't forget Nikola Mirotic - he will be very solid. Joakim Noah, Pau Gasol, Taj Gibson, Nikola Mirotic is a much improved FC. Yes, they added Doug McDermott but Jimmy Butler and Tony Snell will improve. McDermott, Butler, Snell, Dunleavy is a very deep solid wing core.

Kanyewest · Post #53 » by **Kanyewest** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:00 pm

Pau Gasol was playing D'Antoni the past couple of years. While D'Antoni is good for point guards like Lin and Marshall, he wasn't too good with Gasol and Howard. I'm interested to see if Gasol has anything in the tank when playing for Spain in the World Cup.

Post #54 » by **Ruzious** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:15 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Higga wrote:Easily Chicago. Lebron instantly makes Cleveland a contender. I mean those previous Cleveland teams we're probably worse than this one.

Chicago has done what, sign Gasol? Good player, but old. Too many people banking on McDermott, he'll bust in the NBA. Rose...who knows, he hasn't been healthy in years.

Coach K has been raving about Rose, but what does he know? Gasol was still one of the top few bigs in the NBA last season albeit when healthy - he was a steal, imo. McDermott doesn't have to be special to help; all they need from him (in order to improve) is a guy who's solid offensively and makes you guard hm.

Gasol who has Injury problems playing at a high level isn't going to happen. Gasol playing PF is out of his position at this stage he won't be able to keep up with PFs .Chicago has nobody worth mentioning at the SG/SF position who will make a big difference. Solid starting 5 but it goes beyond that with Rose who is unproven what he can play at this point. Playing a full season taking contact isn't going to happen.

Gasol should be an excellent fit whether he's playing with Noah or Gibson or McDermott. When playing with Noah, they can be interchangeable. Remember, when Noah was in college, he played PF on defense when teamed with Horford. Horford was the one battling down low with the likes of Greg Oden, while Noah wrecked havoc elsewhere.

I_Like_Dirt · Post #55 » by **I_Like_Dirt** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:55 pm

I'm not so sure you can say that D'Antoni was bad for Gasol. Last season, Gasol basically hit his career averages across the board, only he did it in 31 mpg. His offensive efficiency has dropped a bit over the past few years, but historically, if a player doesn't score efficiently with D'Antoni, they usually aren't going to score efficiently elsewhere, either. Gasol has also played in more than 66 games once in the past 5 seasons, and twice in the past 8 seasons. Basically, he's a pretty big lock to miss at least 20 games during the season. He's better than Boozer, but not outrageously so. Gasol is going to see a decline in production moving the the Bulls, who focus so much more on defense.

As for Rose, he's the key to the Bulls. If he's healthy for the season, I think they win the eastern conference. But the history if players who miss the kind of time he has and returning to anywhere close to their former selves is not good. Looking good in the offseason is one thing. Last preseason, the Bulls were wowed by Rose's supposed improved range and how he was scoring from all over the floor. Then the season hit and reality set in very quickly that the offseason and the regular season were completely different animals. A 50% Derrick Rose isn't what people think it is. The difference in talent between a superstar and a d-league allstar is closer than people think. Just a slight advantage gets exploited to a huge difference in a sport where games are often very close at the end. If Rose is only 50%, he looks a lot more like what DJ Augustin was to the Bulls last season than hedoes a player like John Wall.

Anyone projecting McD and Mirotic to make big impacts this season is in for a bit of a shock once the season gets going and Thibodeau starts really pressuring those guys to play his style of defense. Last season people thought Erik Murphy was going to play a bit and he was eventually waived - never got a sniff despite the coaching staff liking him in preseason. I like both Mirotic and McD more than Murphy, but that doesn't mean they are going to be impact players this season.

Thibodeau in particular will ensure the Bulls stay afloat, even with a thin team. But unless Rose can prove himself healthy, they are what they've been the past couple of seasons. With fewer teams tanking from the outset in the east this season, it will be tough for the Bulls to match their win total from last season, although it's certainly possible.

Hidden Eye · Post #56 » by **Hidden Eye** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Coach K has been raving about Rose, but what does he know? Gasol was still one of the top few bigs in the NBA last season albeit when healthy - he was a steal, imo. McDermott doesn't have to be special to help; all they need from him (in order to improve) is a guy who's solid offensively and makes you guard hm.

Gasol who has Injury problems playing at a high level isn't going to happen. Gasol playing PF is out of his position at this stage he won't be able to keep up with PFs .Chicago has nobody worth mentioning at the SG/SF position who will make a big difference. Solid starting 5 but it goes beyond that with Rose who is unproven what he can play at this point. Playing a full season taking contact isn't going to happen.

Gasol should be an excellent fit whether he's playing with Noah or Gibson or McDermott. When playing with Noah, they can be interchangeable. Remember, when Noah was in college, he played PF on defense when teamed with Horford. Horford was the one battling down low with the likes of Greg Oden, while Noah wrecked havoc elsewhere.

No he won't Gasol doesn't have the quickness to play the PF that leaves a slow frontcount which will slow their team down. Having 2 slow Centers won't be a contender.

Kanyewest · Post #57 » by **Kanyewest** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:48 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:I'm not so sure you can say that D'Antoni was bad for Gasol. Last season, Gasol basically hit his career averages across the board, only he did it in 31 mpg. His offensive efficiency has dropped a bit over the past few years, but historically, if a player doesn't score efficiently with D'Antoni, they usually aren't going to score efficiently elsewhere, either. Gasol has also played in more than 66 games once in the past 5 seasons, and twice in the past 8 seasons. Basically, he's a pretty big lock to miss at least 20 games during the season. He's better than Boozer, but not outrageously so. Gasol is going to see a decline in production moving the the Bulls, who focus so much more on defense.

As for Rose, he's the key to the Bulls. If he's healthy for the season, I think they win the eastern conference. But the history if players who miss the kind of time he has and returning to anywhere close to their former selves is not good. Looking good in the offseason is one thing. Last preseason, the Bulls were wowed by Rose's supposed improved range and how he was scoring from all over the floor. Then the season hit and reality set in very quickly that the offseason and the regular season were completely different animals. A 50% Derrick Rose isn't what people think it is. The difference in talent between a superstar and a d-league allstar is closer than people think. Just a slight advantage gets exploited to a huge difference in a sport where games are often very close at the end. If Rose is only 50%, he looks a lot more like what DJ Augustin was to the Bulls last season than hedoes a player like John Wall.

Anyone projecting McD and Mirotic to make big impacts this season is in for a bit of a shock once the season gets going and Thibodeau starts really pressuring those guys to play his style of defense. Last season people thought Erik Murphy was going to play a bit and he was eventually waived - never got a sniff despite the coaching staff liking him in preseason. I like both Mirotic and McD more than Murphy, but that doesn't mean they are going to be impact players this season.

Thibodeau in particular will ensure the Bulls stay afloat, even with a thin team. But unless Rose can prove himself healthy, they are what they've been the past couple of seasons. With fewer teams tanking from the outset in the east this season, it will be tough for the Bulls to match their win total from last season, although it's certainly possible.

Dwight Howard was more efficient last season without D'Antoni.

Gasol should do better playing alongside Rose, Gibson/Noah then he did with Swaggy P, Wesley Johnson, and Jordan Hill. I would expect Gasol's efficiency to go up simply by playing on a better team. I was wrong to put the blame on D'Antoni for last season. While there were guys like Young and Marshall who were efficient, the Lakers really were not a good team last season.

You are right D-Rose has to be significant to get back to the finals. I guess I'm assuming he will be a top 10 point guard and if not- Thibs would pull a Nate Robinson/DJ Augustine.

Sagev · Post #58 » by **Sagev** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:58 pm

Cleveland. New coach, inexperienced young core, lack of chemistry. Teams like this rarely are contenders. The presence of LBJ helps, of course. But even he shows small glimpses of decline (ie. his defense). So, it will be interesting to see how they do.

Post #59 » by **Ruzious** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:15 am

Hidden Eye wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
Gasol who has Injury problems playing at a high level isn't going to happen. Gasol playing PF is out of his position at this stage he won't be able to keep up with PFs .Chicago has nobody worth mentioning at the SG/SF position who will make a big difference. Solid starting 5 but it goes beyond that with Rose who is unproven what he can play at this point. Playing a full season taking contact isn't going to happen.

Gasol should be an excellent fit whether he's playing with Noah or Gibson or McDermott. When playing with Noah, they can be interchangeable. Remember, when Noah was in college, he played PF on defense when teamed with Horford. Horford was the one battling down low with the likes of Greg Oden, while Noah wrecked havoc elsewhere.

No he won't Gasol doesn't have the quickness to play the PF that leaves a slow frontcount which will slow their team down. Having 2 slow Centers won't be a contender.

As I pointed out, Noah can defend PF's when they're playing together. Noah is faster in transition than most PF's.

Hidden Eye · Post #60 » by **Hidden Eye** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:23 am

Ruzious wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Gasol should be an excellent fit whether he's playing with Noah or Gibson or McDermott. When playing with Noah, they can be interchangeable. Remember, when Noah was in college, he played PF on defense when teamed with Horford. Horford was the one battling down low with the likes of Greg Oden, while Noah wrecked havoc elsewhere.

No he won't Gasol doesn't have the quickness to play the PF that leaves a slow frontcount which will slow their team down. Having 2 slow Centers won't be a contender.

As I pointed out, Noah can defend PF's when they're playing together. Noah is faster in transition than most PF's.

He was struggling against Nene guard PF nothing can't keep up anymore.