Shots Fired: Waiters Says He and Irving Best Backcourt

[Dat2U]

It really just blows my mind how ridiculous Kyrie's hype train still is. By mid season there were fans over at Cavs the blog who were literally proposing trading Kyrie to get more out of this draft instead of offering him the max down the line. National media begins to throw you under the bus? Oh, no worries, winning the pointless ASG mvp will take off a little heat. Still not convinced? Coach K to the rescue. Beat up on some scrubs from Serbia, everyone will love it.

Meanwhile Isaiah Thomas gets payed 7 million to be a 6th man despite being a flatout better offensive player than Kyrie. SMH.

Hate if you want but Kyrie is going to have an awesome year with LeBron and Love spreading the floor. The court should be wide open now.

Kyrie can do it all. Its just they had no one else to score or turn to before. Now a ton of pressure has been taken off his shoulders so he can open up more areas of this game. Adding LeBron and Love is huge for Kyrie. Consider that team last year to this year and what his role was. He was the best player on the team last year. Now look at them.

LeBron can close out or run the offense allowing him to spot up, drive and dish. He can play off or on ball.
LeBron can catch his passes as well and finish. You are going to see some pretty assists from Kyrie.

The two playing off each other is a dangerous combination. And thats not even mentioning Love spotting up and grabbing rebounds for outlet to LeBron and Kyrie.

Kyrie has sick sick handles. Maybe the best in the league. He can also pass.

I just watch a few long interviews with him. He is actually a nice young man. Almost like Beal. Very humble. Very competitive. Very team focused.

Cavs lucked out big time with LeBron coming home.

He is going to have a great year. He will be an AS again. I think he even gets some votes for MVP, MIP, etc.

The gap between Kyrie and Curry will close a lot this year.

I like Wall a lot but he doesn't have Kyries handles, shooting or creative driving skills. What Wall has is that he is more athletic, bigger, and stronger. Walls upside to be a more explosive Westbrook type is there but Kyrie just has a smoother more polished skilled game right now.

Kyrie can do it all BUT play passable defense or make his teammates better. Kyrie with the ball in his hands is a magician, the problem is when he's asked to do other things outside of creating & scoring.

I don't think Kyrie has Curry's mental toughness or work ethic.

[Nivek]

They might be the best backcourt if the Cavs were playing in a FIBA competition. In the NBA? Not so much.

In FIBA, probably not.

You've got

Curry/Thompson
Dragic/Bledsoe
Lowry/DeRozan

Wall and Beal might be better too especially since they at least both got to tryout while Waiters didn't.

Sorry, my post was poorly worded. What I meant is that Kyrie excels in certain circumstances - All-Star Game, FIBA, Uncle Drew, stats, etc. But actually winning relevant NBA games is a whole different story. And that doesn't even begin to address the ridiculousness of Waiters chirping about anything since he has accomplished..... getting himself picked high in the draft. But beyond that, I'm drawing a blank.

Basically, I look at Kyrie the way I do Melo today and Vince Carter 10 years ago. Big star, big name, might even be a solid player in international competition. But unless the light bulb clicks (like I believe it did for VC), they'll be sitting at home for the most important games.



[Note: Yes, I realize that Kyrie & Waiters are likely to be playing into the ECF and maybe the NBA finals. But that won't be because of those two guys, it will be because of LeBron & Love. Kyrie would pretty much have to totally remake his game for me to believe that he was more contributor than participant in that scenario.]

It still doesn't make sense to me to blames one of a team's more productive players for its losses. If a guy plays well and his team loses, it would seem more logical to look at his non-producing teammates as The Problem instead of saying the productive guy doesn't know how to win.

Now, Irving isn't as productive as his media hype would suggest, but that's hardly new. Many players have piled up accolades ahead of actual production. Carmelo Anthony is definitely an example of that -- he was anointed a Superstar and dubbed one of the game's elite players when he generally wasn't even the most productive player on his own team (at least in my metric). Without looking it up, I think the first time Anthony was his team's most productive in my metric was when he got to the Knicks.

Irving has been a good pro in his first three seasons, though nowhere near elite. Still, he's just 22 years old, and there's plenty of reason to think he's going to be a superb player in the NBA. For example, his PPA last season (my metric) was identical to Wall's, and I think most of us believe Wall is going to be an excellent NBA player.

Winning games isn't something a single player can do alone. It takes teammates, and Irving has had crappy ones. This offseason, the Cavs were able to get a couple elite guys, and it's likely Cleveland (and Irving) will win a lot of games this season. While you've already dismissed that as Irving being along for the ride, fact is the Cavs will need significant contributions from someone other than Lebron and Love to win. Based on what he's done thus far in the NBA, Irving is likely to be that guy.

Definitely agree that Waiters running his mouth is stupid considering how little he's accomplished. He's been a crummy player since arriving in the NBA, and last season was no exception. If anyone will be along for the ride in Cleveland, it'll be Waiters. Irving has been good, and (given his age) is likely to improve.

[Higga]

It's always amusing when scrubs start talking trash because they got the best player on the planet on their team now.

[Dat2U]

In FIBA, probably not.

You've got

Curry/Thompson
Dragic/Bledsoe
Lowry/DeRozan

Wall and Beal might be better too especially since they at least both got to tryout while Waiters didn't.

Sorry, my post was poorly worded. What I meant is that Kyrie excels in certain circumstances - All-Star Game, FIBA, Uncle Drew, stats, etc. But actually winning relevant NBA games is a whole different story. And that doesn't even begin to address the ridiculousness of Waiters chirping about anything since he has accomplished..... getting himself picked high in the draft. But beyond that, I'm drawing a blank.

Basically, I look at Kyrie the way I do Melo today and Vince Carter 10 years ago. Big star, big name, might even be a solid player in international competition. But unless the light bulb clicks (like I believe it did for VC), they'll be sitting at home for the most important games.



[Note: Yes, I realize that Kyrie & Waiters are likely to be playing into the ECF and maybe the NBA finals. But that won't be because of those two guys, it will be because of LeBron & Love. Kyrie would pretty much have to totally remake his game for me to believe that he was more contributor than participant in that scenario.]

It still doesn't make sense to me to blames one of a team's more productive players for its losses. If a guy plays well and his team loses, it would seem more logical to look at his non-producing teammates as The Problem instead of saying the productive guy doesn't know how to win.

Now, Irving isn't as productive as his media hype would suggest, but that's hardly new. Many players have piled up accolades ahead of actual production. Carmelo Anthony is definitely an example of that -- he was anointed a Superstar and dubbed one of the game's elite players when he generally wasn't even the most productive player on his own team (at least in my metric). Without looking it up, I think the first time Anthony was his team's most productive in my metric was when he got to the Knicks.

Irving has been a good pro in his first three seasons, though nowhere near elite. Still, he's just 22 years old, and there's plenty of reason to think he's going to be a superb player in the NBA. For example, his PPA last season (my metric) was identical to Wall's, and I think most of us believe Wall is going to be an excellent NBA player.

Winning games isn't something a single player can do alone. It takes teammates, and Irving has had crappy ones. This offseason, the Cavs were able to get a couple elite guys, and it's likely Cleveland (and Irving) will win a lot of games this season. While you've already dismissed that as Irving being along for the ride, fact is the Cavs will need significant contributions from someone other than Lebron and Love to win. Based on what he's done thus far in the NBA, Irving is likely to be that guy.

Definitely agree that Waiters running his mouth is stupid considering how little he's accomplished. He's been a crummy player since arriving in the NBA, and last season was no exception. If anyone will be along for the ride in Cleveland, it'll be Waiters. Irving has been good, and (given his age) is likely to improve.

But what's his PPA from his rookie year? His 2nd? I look for trends. I see someone that is stagnant, is absoutely wretched defender (one of the worst in the league) and I wonder why would assume improvement if his performance hasn't taken a jump thus far? Especially when he's already an all-star MVP, FIBA Champion and now a max player who'll be on National TV on a regular basis. He's already a star in ESPN's eyes. It's hard to see someone putting in the work to get better if the current level of play gets him everything he already wanted.

[keynote]

The Bog has a transcript on the latest. Not much here, bur worth including in the thread nonetheless.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... -of-words/

Act V was performed Wednesday afternoon on ESPN 980′s Inside the locker room.

“So you and Dion Waiters, you guys gonna be hanging out any time soon?” Scott Jackson asked. “What’s the story there?”

“Shots fired,” Beal replied.

“What do you think?” Jackson asked.

“I’m just gonna say November 21, man,” Beal replied.

“Are you guys trying to sell tickets, or what are you doing?” Jackson asked. “It’s great. It’s like WWE almost.”

“We’re trying to amp it up a little bit,” Beal said. “Pay-per-view game, hopefully.”

Then he turned serious.

“I mean, why wouldn’t you think you’re the best back court in the league?” Beal said. “I’m pretty sure me and John feel like that, him and Kyrie [Irving] feel like that, and Klay [Thompson] and Steph [Curry] feel like that. So it doesn’t matter. I mean, I would hope you have confidence in yourself, and believe that you’re the best in the league. But that’s just me being who I am and having confidence in me and John. I’m not worried about those guys or what they’re doing over there. I’m just trying to control what we can control, and trying to get wins.”

Brian Mitchell then said something about stats.

“I mean, some guys just get to talking,” Beal said. “And that’s all he’s doing right now. But what we’re going to do, we’re just going to prove it. And November 21, they come here, so we’ll just duke it out then.”

[Nivek]

But what's his PPA from his rookie year? His 2nd? I look for trends. I see someone that is stagnant, is absoutely wretched defender (one of the worst in the league) and I wonder why would assume improvement if his performance hasn't taken a jump thus far? Especially when he's already an all-star MVP, FIBA Champion and now a max player who'll be on National TV on a regular basis. He's already a star in ESPN's eyes. It's hard to see someone putting in the work to get better if the current level of play gets him everything he already wanted.

Irving's PPA has gone down a little each of his three seasons (152, 143, 139), which is obviously not the direction Cavs fans would want him going. He's played through some injuries, which isn't an excuse, but simply a factor. Given his youth and overall ability, I still think it's more likely he'll improve than continue the downward trend.

To be honest, I've had the similar concerns about Wall. His PPA has gone up since he was a rookie, but was flat the past two seasons -- 93, 110, 139, 139. Wall got the max contract and the All-Star appearance, but also tasted playoff disappointment (in part because of his own meh play) and got cut from Team USA. So, maybe he has more motivation to work on his game.

[JWizmentality]

But what's his PPA from his rookie year? His 2nd? I look for trends. I see someone that is stagnant, is absoutely wretched defender (one of the worst in the league) and I wonder why would assume improvement if his performance hasn't taken a jump thus far? Especially when he's already an all-star MVP, FIBA Champion and now a max player who'll be on National TV on a regular basis. He's already a star in ESPN's eyes. It's hard to see someone putting in the work to get better if the current level of play gets him everything he already wanted.

Irving's PPA has gone down a little each of his three seasons (152, 143, 139), which is obviously not the direction Cavs fans would want him going. He's played through some injuries, which isn't an excuse, but simply a factor. Given his youth and overall ability, I still think it's more likely he'll improve than continue the downward trend.

To be honest, I've had the similar concerns about Wall. His PPA has gone up since he was a rookie, but was flat the past two seasons -- 93, 110, 139, 139. Wall got the max contract and the All-Star appearance, but also tasted playoff disappointment (in part because of his own meh play) and got cut from Team USA. So, maybe he has more motivation to work on his game.

Well, he did miss a good chunk of year three and was coming off injury.

[Sluggerface]

It really just blows my mind how ridiculous Kyrie's hype train still is. By mid season there were fans over at Cavs the blog who were literally proposing trading Kyrie to get more out of this draft instead of offering him the max down the line. National media begins to throw you under the bus? Oh, no worries, winning the pointless ASG mvp will take off a little heat. Still not convinced? Coach K to the rescue. Beat up on some scrubs from Serbia, everyone will love it.

Meanwhile Isaiah Thomas gets payed 7 million to be a 6th man despite being a flatout better offensive player than Kyrie. SMH.

Hate if you want but Kyrie is going to have an awesome year with LeBron and Love spreading the floor. The court should be wide open now.

Kyrie can do it all. Its just they had no one else to score or turn to before. Now a ton of pressure has been taken off his shoulders so he can open up more areas of this game. Adding LeBron and Love is huge for Kyrie. Consider that team last year to this year and what his role was. He was the best player on the team last year. Now look at them.

LeBron can close out or run the offense allowing him to spot up, drive and dish. He can play off or on ball.
LeBron can catch his passes as well and finish. You are going to see some pretty assists from Kyrie.

The two playing off each other is a dangerous combination. And thats not even mentioning Love spotting up and grabbing rebounds for outlet to LeBron and Kyrie.

Kyrie has sick sick handles. Maybe the best in the league. He can also pass.

I just watch a few long interviews with him. He is actually a nice young man. Almost like Beal. Very humble. Very competitive. Very team focused.

Cavs lucked out big time with LeBron coming home.

He is going to have a great year. He will be an AS again. I think he even gets some votes for MVP, MIP, etc.

The gap between Kyrie and Curry will close a lot this year.

I like Wall a lot but he doesn't have Kyries handles, shooting or creative driving skills. What Wall has is that he is more athletic, bigger, and stronger. Walls upside to be a more explosive Westbrook type is there but Kyrie just has a smoother more polished skilled game right now.

I'm sorry, but the hype hasn't matched his level of play so far. That's not hate, that's simply stating the truth. The Cavs have been one of my league pass teams for the past two seasons. They were horrible in his first two years, but quite frankly, they should have made the playoffs last year, and i'll give you one guess as to who prevented that from happening, and his name isn't Mike Brown.

From top to bottom, The Cavs had more talent on their roster than Atlanta and Charlotte, and it's getting rather pathetic that people are trying to say otherwise. They went under .500 with a lineup of Irving/(Waiters/Miles)/Deng/Thompson/(Hawes/Varejao) to end the year. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't have creeped up and grabbed the 8th seed from Atlanta. If Irving didn't spend so many games being inconsistent, freezing the offense, being a revolving door on defense, and being a poor leader in general, Cleveland would have made the playoffs.

People will continue to blame Mike Brown for that instead of pointing out the obvious:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314CLE.HTM

I don't buy into players based on flash. I buy into players based on fire. Kyrie has lost his chance to prove that he can get it done as the best player on his team. I simply can't put him on the level of Paul/Westbrook/Curry at this point.

Hell, Curry's shot chart really says it all.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=201939

[hands11]

It really just blows my mind how ridiculous Kyrie's hype train still is. By mid season there were fans over at Cavs the blog who were literally proposing trading Kyrie to get more out of this draft instead of offering him the max down the line. National media begins to throw you under the bus? Oh, no worries, winning the pointless ASG mvp will take off a little heat. Still not convinced? Coach K to the rescue. Beat up on some scrubs from Serbia, everyone will love it.

Meanwhile Isaiah Thomas gets payed 7 million to be a 6th man despite being a flatout better offensive player than Kyrie. SMH.

Hate if you want but Kyrie is going to have an awesome year with LeBron and Love spreading the floor. The court should be wide open now.

Kyrie can do it all. Its just they had no one else to score or turn to before. Now a ton of pressure has been taken off his shoulders so he can open up more areas of this game. Adding LeBron and Love is huge for Kyrie. Consider that team last year to this year and what his role was. He was the best player on the team last year. Now look at them.

LeBron can close out or run the offense allowing him to spot up, drive and dish. He can play off or on ball.
LeBron can catch his passes as well and finish. You are going to see some pretty assists from Kyrie.

The two playing off each other is a dangerous combination. And thats not even mentioning Love spotting up and grabbing rebounds for outlet to LeBron and Kyrie.

Kyrie has sick sick handles. Maybe the best in the league. He can also pass.

I just watch a few long interviews with him. He is actually a nice young man. Almost like Beal. Very humble. Very competitive. Very team focused.

Cavs lucked out big time with LeBron coming home.

He is going to have a great year. He will be an AS again. I think he even gets some votes for MVP, MIP, etc.

The gap between Kyrie and Curry will close a lot this year.

I like Wall a lot but he doesn't have Kyries handles, shooting or creative driving skills. What Wall has is that he is more athletic, bigger, and stronger. Walls upside to be a more explosive Westbrook type is there but Kyrie just has a smoother more polished skilled game right now.

Kyrie can do it all BUT play passable defense or make his teammates better. Kyrie with the ball in his hands is a magician, the problem is when he's asked to do other things outside of creating & scoring.

I don't think Kyrie has Curry's mental toughness or work ethic.

Im keeping an open mind. He has never had good players around him.

Im commenting on what I think the will do this year. Not what he has done in the past.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j4arTMLblA[/youtube]

[JimmyTD3]

This is in good fun and all but...the best backcourt in the league is Curry / Thompson.

All this talk about potential is great, but the Dubs back court is the best right now. And they still have so much room to grow.

Which is why Klay and Curry were playing the 2nd and 5th most minutes for gold medal Team USA this year, while Wall, Beal, and Waiters were sitting at home. (Ups to Kyrie though, I'm a fan.)

[Dat2U]

Actually the best backcourt IMO is the trio of Dragic, Bledsoe & Thomas. You can add Ennis in there to boot. They should be able to P&R teams to death.

[hands11]

This is in good fun and all but...the best backcourt in the league is Curry / Thompson.

All this talk about potential is great, but the Dubs back court is the best right now. And they still have so much room to grow.

Which is why Klay and Curry were playing the 2nd and 5th most minutes for gold medal Team USA this year, while Wall, Beal, and Waiters were sitting at home. (Ups to Kyrie though, I'm a fan.)

Again, I usually hear Wall/Beal as the best 'young" back court.

Curry 26
Klay 24

They are still young and they are better but they are borderline not young. 26 isn't really what i would call young. Its more just entering mid aged for an NBA player. 26-28 ..

Wall 24 in Sept
Beal 21 in June

Now that's clearly still young.

Kyrie 22
Dion 23 in dec .. if he is a starter

That would be young as well.

[WinstonHoward]

It really just blows my mind how ridiculous Kyrie's hype train still is. By mid season there were fans over at Cavs the blog who were literally proposing trading Kyrie to get more out of this draft instead of offering him the max down the line. National media begins to throw you under the bus? Oh, no worries, winning the pointless ASG mvp will take off a little heat. Still not convinced? Coach K to the rescue. Beat up on some scrubs from Serbia, everyone will love it.

Meanwhile Isaiah Thomas gets payed 7 million to be a 6th man despite being a flatout better offensive player than Kyrie. SMH.

Hate if you want but Kyrie is going to have an awesome year with LeBron and Love spreading the floor. The court should be wide open now.

Kyrie can do it all. Its just they had no one else to score or turn to before. Now a ton of pressure has been taken off his shoulders so he can open up more areas of this game. Adding LeBron and Love is huge for Kyrie. Consider that team last year to this year and what his role was. He was the best player on the team last year. Now look at them.

LeBron can close out or run the offense allowing him to spot up, drive and dish. He can play off or on ball.
LeBron can catch his passes as well and finish. You are going to see some pretty assists from Kyrie.

The two playing off each other is a dangerous combination. And thats not even mentioning Love spotting up and grabbing rebounds for outlet to LeBron and Kyrie.

Kyrie has sick sick handles. Maybe the best in the league. He can also pass.

I just watch a few long interviews with him. He is actually a nice young man. Almost like Beal. Very humble. Very competitive. Very team focused.

Cavs lucked out big time with LeBron coming home.

He is going to have a great year. He will be an AS again. I think he even gets some votes for MVP, MIP, etc.

The gap between Kyrie and Curry will close a lot this year.

I like Wall a lot but he doesn't have Kyries handles, shooting or creative driving skills. What Wall has is that he is more athletic, bigger, and stronger. Walls upside to be a more explosive Westbrook type is there but Kyrie just has a smoother more polished skilled game right now.

I'm sorry, but the hype hasn't matched his level of play so far. That's not hate, that's simply stating the truth. The Cavs have been one of my league pass teams for the past two seasons. They were horrible in his first two years, but quite frankly, they should have made the playoffs last year, and i'll give you one guess as to who prevented that from happening, and his name isn't Mike Brown.

From top to bottom, The Cavs had more talent on their roster than Atlanta and Charlotte, and it's getting rather pathetic that people are trying to say otherwise. They went under .500 with a lineup of Irving/(Waiters/Miles)/Deng/Thompson/(Hawes/Varejao) to end the year. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't have creeped up and grabbed the 8th seed from Atlanta. If Irving didn't spend so many games being inconsistent, freezing the offense, being a revolving door on defense, and being a poor leader in general, Cleveland would have made the playoffs.

People will continue to blame Mike Brown for that instead of pointing out the obvious:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314CLE.HTM

I don't buy into players based on flash. I buy into players based on fire. Kyrie has lost his chance to prove that he can get it done as the best player on his team. I simply can't put him on the level of Paul/Westbrook/Curry at this point.

Hell, Curry's shot chart really says it all.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=201939

You are severely underrating how bad of a coach Mike Brown is. There is a reason Kyrie had a bad year comparative to his sophomore year and it is based mostly off the fact that Mike Brown cannot run an offense to save his life.

You seem closed minded to the probable likelihood that Irving improves to be an elite player in this league. To say "he has plateaued at 22" is INCREDIBLY short sighted.

It sounds as if there is something more going on rather than you just objectively having these weird opinions on an up and coming player like Irving.

If I had to guess, you don't like Irving because he earned a ton of hype relative to Wall, who was seen as a disappointment up until this year. Naturally, you are going to start to dislike the other player and hope he's worse than your guy, especially when 2 players are so often compared (playing the same position, drafted a year apart). As a Cavs fan, I would know as I used to catch myself constantly routing against Wall, hoping Irving would get more attention.

It's natural man, but try not to let your biases cloud your judgement.

[StunnaStan]

its hilarious what these leastern conference guards think. None of the backcourts in the east are even better than dragic and bledsoe lmao. have fun winning your 44 games and beating a 39 win team in the playoffs

[Dat2U]

its hilarious what these leastern conference guards think. None of the backcourts in the east are even better than dragic and bledsoe lmao. have fun winning your 44 games and beating a 39 win team in the playoffs

To bad they'll have to carry a front court consisting of the Morris Twins & Miles Plumlee.

Have fun playing in a conference where being the 9th or 10th seed is your best option.

[StunnaStan]

Dont get it twisted, im not a suns fan. Im Denver nuggets fan. our 50 wins are booked already now that were healthy. Plumlee alone is better than gortat and nene. i believe the suns got rid of gortat because he wasnt as good as plumee but the amount of money he makes would make you think otherwise lol. nene is good as long as he is healthy so i have nothing bad to say about him.

[Dat2U]

Dont get it twisted, im not a suns fan. Im Denver nuggets fan. our 50 wins are booked already now that were healthy. Plumlee alone is better than gortat and nene. i believe the suns got rid of gortat because he wasnt as good as plumee but the amount of money he makes would make you think otherwise lol. nene is good as long as he is healthy so i have nothing bad to say about him.

Tim Connelly? Is that you? Not sure why your still listening to Ernie after all these years. Of course he said it was a good idea to give Faried whatever he wanted! What else you expected him to tell you?

[Sluggerface]

Hate if you want but Kyrie is going to have an awesome year with LeBron and Love spreading the floor. The court should be wide open now.

Kyrie can do it all. Its just they had no one else to score or turn to before. Now a ton of pressure has been taken off his shoulders so he can open up more areas of this game. Adding LeBron and Love is huge for Kyrie. Consider that team last year to this year and what his role was. He was the best player on the team last year. Now look at them.

LeBron can close out or run the offense allowing him to spot up, drive and dish. He can play off or on ball.
LeBron can catch his passes as well and finish. You are going to see some pretty assists from Kyrie.

The two playing off each other is a dangerous combination. And thats not even mentioning Love spotting up and grabbing rebounds for outlet to LeBron and Kyrie.

Kyrie has sick sick handles. Maybe the best in the league. He can also pass.

I just watch a few long interviews with him. He is actually a nice young man. Almost like Beal. Very humble. Very competitive. Very team focused.

Cavs lucked out big time with LeBron coming home.

He is going to have a great year. He will be an AS again. I think he even gets some votes for MVP, MIP, etc.

The gap between Kyrie and Curry will close a lot this year.

I like Wall a lot but he doesn't have Kyries handles, shooting or creative driving skills. What Wall has is that he is more athletic, bigger, and stronger. Walls upside to be a more explosive Westbrook type is there but Kyrie just has a smoother more polished skilled game right now.

I'm sorry, but the hype hasn't matched his level of play so far. That's not hate, that's simply stating the truth. The Cavs have been one of my league pass teams for the past two seasons. They were horrible in his first two years, but quite frankly, they should have made the playoffs last year, and i'll give you one guess as to who prevented that from happening, and his name isn't Mike Brown.

From top to bottom, The Cavs had more talent on their roster than Atlanta and Charlotte, and it's getting rather pathetic that people are trying to say otherwise. They went under .500 with a lineup of Irving/(Waiters/Miles)/Deng/Thompson/(Hawes/Varejao) to end the year. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't have creeped up and grabbed the 8th seed from Atlanta. If Irving didn't spend so many games being inconsistent, freezing the offense, being a revolving door on defense, and being a poor leader in general, Cleveland would have made the playoffs.

People will continue to blame Mike Brown for that instead of pointing out the obvious:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314CLE.HTM

I don't buy into players based on flash. I buy into players based on fire. Kyrie has lost his chance to prove that he can get it done as the best player on his team. I simply can't put him on the level of Paul/Westbrook/Curry at this point.

Hell, Curry's shot chart really says it all.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=201939

You are severely underrating how bad of a coach Mike Brown is. There is a reason Kyrie had a bad year comparative to his sophomore year and it is based mostly off the fact that Mike Brown cannot run an offense to save his life.

You seem closed minded to the probable likelihood that Irving improves to be an elite player in this league. To say "he has plateaued at 22" is INCREDIBLY short sighted.

It sounds as if there is something more going on rather than you just objectively having these weird opinions on an up and coming player like Irving.

If I had to guess, you don't like Irving because he earned a ton of hype relative to Wall, who was seen as a disappointment up until this year. Naturally, you are going to start to dislike the other player and hope he's worse than your guy, especially when 2 players are so often compared (playing the same position, drafted a year apart). As a Cavs fan, I would know as I used to catch myself constantly routing against Wall, hoping Irving would get more attention.

It's natural man, but try not to let your biases cloud your judgement.

Lol Biased? There's nothing biased about what I said. Why on earth would I fork over a hundred dollars and choose the Cavs as one of my league pass teams to watch a middling team and a player that I have some personal slight towards? I chose Cleveland for two years BECAUSE of the hype. Kyrie flashed BRILLIANT potential in his rookie year, and I wanted to see if he could pull it together, but I gave up on him in the middle of last season as a #1 franchise guy because his game just wasn't evolving into what it needed to be to carry the Cavs into contention. Mike Brown is a bad coach, but there are numerous bad coaches, especially offensive coaches, in this league who got it done with talent. Brooks, Vogel, Wittman, etc. I'm not going to say that coaching isn't huge, but player talent will always be the deciding factor on whether a team can be successful or not.

Once again, it's not Mike Brown's fault that Irving showed an embarrassingly disinterest in little things like running back on defense, chucking his team out of games, and not getting his teammates involved as much as he should. It's a serious problem when your BEST player has a worse on-court differential than off it. There were literally cavs fans wanting to trade him to move up in the draft prior to the deadline. This isn't me blowing smoke up your ass.

Saying that Kyrie isn't an elite guy that can carry a team on his back like the likes of CP3, Curry, and Westbrook isn't the same thing as saying that Kyrie can't improve as a great 2nd option and be a crucial factor in winning games. I never said that. I was merely debating the fact that Hands was bringing up the point that he thinks that Irving is going to approach Curry territory. I just don't see it. It's a poor argument that the numbers just don't back up. There's nothing biased about it.

[Ruzious]

Dont get it twisted, im not a suns fan. Im Denver nuggets fan. our 50 wins are booked already now that were healthy. Plumlee alone is better than gortat and nene. i believe the suns got rid of gortat because he wasnt as good as plumee but the amount of money he makes would make you think otherwise lol. nene is good as long as he is healthy so i have nothing bad to say about him.

Speaking as probably the only RealGM poster who called Plumlee an NBA prospect when he was at Duke, no. Plumlee's a good backup center, and Gortat's a solid starting center. Gortat's significantly more productive, more efficient, has a lower to rate, and is a better defender.

[WinstonHoward]

I'm sorry, but the hype hasn't matched his level of play so far. That's not hate, that's simply stating the truth. The Cavs have been one of my league pass teams for the past two seasons. They were horrible in his first two years, but quite frankly, they should have made the playoffs last year, and i'll give you one guess as to who prevented that from happening, and his name isn't Mike Brown.

From top to bottom, The Cavs had more talent on their roster than Atlanta and Charlotte, and it's getting rather pathetic that people are trying to say otherwise. They went under .500 with a lineup of Irving/(Waiters/Miles)/Deng/Thompson/(Hawes/Varejao) to end the year. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't have creeped up and grabbed the 8th seed from Atlanta. If Irving didn't spend so many games being inconsistent, freezing the offense, being a revolving door on defense, and being a poor leader in general, Cleveland would have made the playoffs.

People will continue to blame Mike Brown for that instead of pointing out the obvious:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314CLE.HTM

I don't buy into players based on flash. I buy into players based on fire. Kyrie has lost his chance to prove that he can get it done as the best player on his team. I simply can't put him on the level of Paul/Westbrook/Curry at this point.

Hell, Curry's shot chart really says it all.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=201939

You are severely underrating how bad of a coach Mike Brown is. There is a reason Kyrie had a bad year comparative to his sophomore year and it is based mostly off the fact that Mike Brown cannot run an offense to save his life.

You seem closed minded to the probable likelihood that Irving improves to be an elite player in this league. To say "he has plateaued at 22" is INCREDIBLY short sighted.

It sounds as if there is something more going on rather than you just objectively having these weird opinions on an up and coming player like Irving.

If I had to guess, you don't like Irving because he earned a ton of hype relative to Wall, who was seen as a disappointment up until this year. Naturally, you are going to start to dislike the other player and hope he's worse than your guy, especially when 2 players are so often compared (playing the same position, drafted a year apart). As a Cavs fan, I would know as I used to catch myself constantly routing against Wall, hoping Irving would get more attention.

It's natural man, but try not to let your biases cloud your judgement.

Lol Biased? There's nothing biased about what I said. Why on earth would I fork over a hundred dollars and choose the Cavs as one of my league pass teams to watch a middling team and a player that I have some personal slight towards? I chose Cleveland for two years BECAUSE of the hype. Kyrie flashed BRILLIANT potential in his rookie year, and I wanted to see if he could pull it together, but I gave up on him in the middle of last season as a #1 franchise guy because his game just wasn't evolving into what it needed to be to carry the Cavs into contention. Mike Brown is a bad coach, but there are numerous bad coaches, especially offensive coaches, in this league who got it done with talent. Brooks, Vogel, Wittman, etc. I'm not going to say that coaching isn't huge, but player talent will always be the deciding factor on whether a team can be successful or not.

Once again, it's not Mike Brown's fault that Irving showed an embarrassingly disinterest in little things like running back on defense, chucking his team out of games, and not getting his teammates involved as much as he should. It's a serious problem when your BEST player has a worse on-court differential than off it. There were literally cavs fans wanting to trade him to move up in the draft prior to the deadline. This isn't me blowing smoke up your ass.

Saying that Kyrie isn't an elite guy that can carry a team on his back like the likes of CP3, Curry, and Westbrook isn't the same thing as saying that Kyrie can't improve as a great 2nd option and be a crucial factor in winning games. I never said that. I was merely debating the fact that Hands was bringing up the point that he thinks that Irving is going to approach Curry territory. I just don't see it. It's a poor argument that the numbers just don't back up. There's nothing biased about it.

Dude what do you expect him to do with that crappy team?? If you actually watched the games like you claim, it would be painfully obvious what the problem was. I would cringe at our half court offense as it seemed nobody knew how to move around off ball. That is not Kyrie's fault. It is the coach's. Of course an uber talented 22 year old is going to feel the need to take everything into his own hands when his next best players are Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson.

This was a team of turmoil and no direction whatsoever (with Bynum, Waiters drama and people calling for Brown's head). That is a lot to thrust on the shoulders of a 22 year old.

For you to just observe this season and say "he will never be able to lead a good team" is soooo short-sighted. The Cavs as a team last year (with all the turmoil and lack of talent) were STILL in it until the last week of the season. If he can do that with Waiters as his second best option and Brown as a coach what do you think he would be able to do with Griffin/Redick, Durant/Ibaka, Aldridge/Batum, etc.

What does "can't be elite guy to carry team on his back" mean anyway? No point guard does that. Everybody you mentioned has a lot of help. That's not how the NBA works anymore. The only guy I can think of that legitimately tried to do that was Kobe post Shaq, pre-Gasol and you saw how that worked out. It's becoming more and more apparent that the "put the team on my back" days are over (as far as a full season/postseason goes).

You substitute Kyrie with Steph on the Warriors, Paul on the Clippers, Lillard on the Blazers and do you honestly think that those teams would not succeed to the extent that they have with their original players? It just makes ZERO sense to say he can't become an elite player and the dude just turned 22 and has accomplished more already than most of the other top point guards did at that same age.

But it's whatever man, you will start to see what I mean this upcoming year. The guy will be an absolute stud.