Political Roundtable - Part VI

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I wouldn't conclude nate is a racist because he uses the word "thug," though I do think he have bias in his thinking based on other things he's written (and, we all have our own biases).

Wow. I've come to expect this from Zonker, but not from you Nivek. "Nate isn't racist. He's only biased against certain races." Whatever.

You're a good dude, nate. I'm not mad at you. I think If I were in your shoes I would say pretty much what you've said.

Perspective

[Nivek]

However, Zonker's point is fair -- namely that the use of a label like "thug" serves to dehumanize. It's a powerful term. It carries connotations of violence, criminal intent, and so on. And yes, it is -- in certain contexts -- a racially charged term.

Synonyms of "thug":

bandit
bully
criminal
goon
hooligan
troublemaker
delinquent

In none of these, is there any overt or implied hint of race. A thug is a totally non-racial term. It's just a word. If you read race to it, it must be due to your own prejudices. Yes it carries connotations of violence and criminal intent, because that's what I saw in the video: violence and criminal acts. (The cigars were reported stolen, BTW.)

The word "thug" doesn't always carry racial freight. But, it has become a kind of "dog whistle" term applied to blacks. It got thrown around a lot, for example, when Richard Sherman yelled into the camera after breaking up that pass attempt to Crabtree and putting Seattle into the Super Bowl.

It's a word that got applied to Trayvon Martin.

Going to a thesaurus doesn't change the dog whistle meaning.

If you didn't know...now you do.

[tontoz]

I think the thug/criminal is Darren Wilson, the guy who unloaded six rounds into a fleeing teenager. His actions touched off riots. Had Wilson not been a coward and a bully who probably was just mad that he couldn't intimidate Brown in the first place he wouldn't have killed him in cold blood.

nate, I don't post in this thread often for a reason. I hate to hit and run but I just used a bunch of labels and incendiary words. Call the black a thug. Call the white guy a thug. Labels incite.

I think cultural bias will prevent me from being objective. My actual thoughts are the cop was a punk and a mean-spirited guy. Had he done a double tap and not shot the guy in the back I would feel differently. I think hatred, retribution, and anything but professionalism got Brown shot. This same cop had harassed another young black male earlier. I just think the cop is a jerk. Might not even be racially motivated at all.

Feel free to point out the evidence that Brown was shot in the back. I must have missed it.

I have heard a lot of cop stories from black friends of mine. FWIW i think the real problem is that white guys who are prejudiced/racist against blacks are more likely to go into law enforcement than white guys who aren't. I don't have any evidence to back this up it is just my opinion.

However let's not pretend that Brown was innocent.

Fact: The video clearly showed Brown committing assault and battery against the store owner.

Do we know for sure Brown robbed the store? No. But why would the owner be arguing with a customer twice his size if the customer paid in full?

Fact: Brown resisted arrest

I doubt Wilson gave himself a black eye. Resisting arrest doesn't mean Brown deserved to die. However when you hit an armed cop in the face, or anywhere else, you arent just committing a crime. You are also putting yourself at risk of getting shot.

Cops aren't trained to shoot just once to disable someone. They are trained to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. So you don't want to give a cop any reason to reach for his gun. If Brown hadn't resisted arrest i seriously doubt we ever would have heard of him.

[Induveca]

In addition to pine's lament about the proliferation of dueling "facts," there's the proliferation of needless nastiness. Labeling people as thugs or racists or sexists or 'hos or whatever is demeaning, dismissive and -- in virtually every case -- just plain wrong. Nobody is one thing. Nobody is merely the worst thing they've ever done. Or the best.

When I see a large man rob a store and cavalierly shove the store-owner to the ground, then casually walk out, I conclude that he is a thug. It's not a "label". It's an accurate description of the man. Normal people in polite society don't do this. The part that troubles me the most isn't the violent act, it's the way he confidently struts out of the store as if he doesn't even recognize that what he is doing is wrong. Either that, or that he is so confident in his ability to intimidate those around him that he's not worried about being caught. This is what I consider to be "chilling".

I refuse to be cowed by political correctness on this. Just because the man is black, it doesn't mean he can't be criticized for his actions. If a burly white guy with a shaved head did the same thing, nobody would think twice about calling him a thug.

But you're not just criticizing him for his actions. You are saying a police officer is justified in gunning him down for this.

I don't think he's saying that, but it certainly (especially after watching the video) makes it far more likely things got violent with the cop. Can't get more criminal-minded than that episode. Theft, assault etc....

There is an interesting battle to release his juvenile record, there are apparently no major felonies but it has leaked that it was "lengthy". I don't agree with releasing the record (now that he died it is legal to release if a judge agrees during a proceeding), but if this goes to trial expect to see the "thug" label confirmed.

The Brown family legal team has fought to keep it private pretty vigorously, and called it "attempted character assassination" when it was requested for release. If it was clean or insignificant, they wouldn't waste the man hours.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think the thug/criminal is Darren Wilson, the guy who unloaded six rounds into a fleeing teenager. His actions touched off riots. Had Wilson not been a coward and a bully who probably was just mad that he couldn't intimidate Brown in the first place he wouldn't have killed him in cold blood.

nate, I don't post in this thread often for a reason. I hate to hit and run but I just used a bunch of labels and incendiary words. Call the black a thug. Call the white guy a thug. Labels incite.

I think cultural bias will prevent me from being objective. My actual thoughts are the cop was a punk and a mean-spirited guy. Had he done a double tap and not shot the guy in the back I would feel differently. I think hatred, retribution, and anything but professionalism got Brown shot. This same cop had harassed another young black male earlier. I just think the cop is a jerk. Might not even be racially motivated at all.

Feel free to point out the evidence that Brown was shot in the back. I must have missed it.

I have heard a lot of cop stories from black friends of mine. FWIW i think the real problem is that white guys who are prejudiced/racist against blacks are more likely to go into law enforcement than white guys who aren't. I don't have any evidence to back this up it is just my opinion.

However let's not pretend that Brown was innocent.

Fact: The video clearly showed Brown committing assault and battery against the store owner.

Do we know for sure Brown robbed the store? No. But why would the owner be arguing with a customer twice his size if the customer paid in full?

Fact: Brown resisted arrest

I doubt Wilson gave himself a black eye. Resisting arrest doesn't mean Brown deserved to die. However when you hit an armed cop in the face, or anywhere else, you arent just committing a crime. You are also putting yourself at risk of getting shot.

Cops aren't trained to shoot just once to disable someone. They are trained to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. So you don't want to give a cop any reason to reach for his gun. If Brown hadn't resisted arrest i seriously doubt we ever would have heard of him.

On this one, I wish I had stayed in my lane and not posted at all.

Honestly, I haven't seen the video.

Also, I thought he was shot in the back but what is actually true is he was fleeing. I am obviously wrong here to say something as fact when I am not right. I apologize to all.

My strong feelings are based on what the girl who witnessed the shooting said and what Michael Brown's friend said. I haven't really considered that Brown could have assaulted the officer because one person said that's not what happened. Also, another youth sad Wilson stopped him for essentially no reason. That all said, I clearly am short on knowledge of the most current info. Brown was the bad guy? I shut my mind off to this idea and stopped following this story a while back TBH. He's the victim in my mind.

OPINION: Wilson rolled up on him in a squad car. If he had requested back up and detained another way MAYBE his eye wouldn't have been blackened and a young man wouldn't be dead.

tontoz, I appreciate you enlightening me. Lessoned learned is to maybe do a bit more research or to stay out of this thread. Not my strong area.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When I see a large man rob a store and cavalierly shove the store-owner to the ground, then casually walk out, I conclude that he is a thug. It's not a "label". It's an accurate description of the man. Normal people in polite society don't do this. The part that troubles me the most isn't the violent act, it's the way he confidently struts out of the store as if he doesn't even recognize that what he is doing is wrong. Either that, or that he is so confident in his ability to intimidate those around him that he's not worried about being caught. This is what I consider to be "chilling".

I refuse to be cowed by political correctness on this. Just because the man is black, it doesn't mean he can't be criticized for his actions. If a burly white guy with a shaved head did the same thing, nobody would think twice about calling him a thug.

But you're not just criticizing him for his actions. You are saying a police officer is justified in gunning him down for this.

I don't think he's saying that, but it certainly (especially after watching the video) makes it far more likely things got violent with the cop. Can't get more criminal-minded than that episode. Theft, assault etc....

There is an interesting battle to release his juvenile record, there are apparently no major felonies but it has leaked that it was "lengthy". I don't agree with releasing the record (now that he died it is legal to release if a judge agrees during a proceeding), but if this goes to trial expect to see the "thug" label confirmed.

The Brown family legal team has fought to keep it private pretty vigorously, and called it "attempted character assassination" when it was requested for release. If it was clean or insignificant, they wouldn't waste the man hours.

Even if he were John Dillinger my question is how come he never got shot before, if he were such a criminal? Has he resisted arrest before? Was he on some new drug? Or, did his mind take him places as it does some?

I am sorry not to have seen the store video. I feel like I interjected ignorance on this one.

[Induveca]

But you're not just criticizing him for his actions. You are saying a police officer is justified in gunning him down for this.

I don't think he's saying that, but it certainly (especially after watching the video) makes it far more likely things got violent with the cop. Can't get more criminal-minded than that episode. Theft, assault etc....

There is an interesting battle to release his juvenile record, there are apparently no major felonies but it has leaked that it was "lengthy". I don't agree with releasing the record (now that he died it is legal to release if a judge agrees during a proceeding), but if this goes to trial expect to see the "thug" label confirmed.

The Brown family legal team has fought to keep it private pretty vigorously, and called it "attempted character assassination" when it was requested for release. If it was clean or insignificant, they wouldn't waste the man hours.

Even if he were John Dillinger my question is how come he never got shot before, if he were such a criminal? Has he resisted arrest before? Was he on some new drug? Or, did his mind take him places as it does some?

I am sorry not to have seen the store video. I feel like I interjected ignorance on this one.

Check out the full video above. I had never seen the whole thing either.

I'm obviously biased as I've just known so many knuckleheads when I was a kid who robbed bodegas. None of them have turned out well....not all are living sadly.

The truth will never be known, but MANY will profit off of the debate.

[dobrojim]

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Whistle-Polit ... 0199964270

GOPers will hate this book and disagree vehemently with it.

this one too.

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

[Induveca]

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Whistle-Politics-Appeals-Reinvented/dp/0199964270

GOPers will hate this book and disagree vehemently with it.

this one too.

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

Don't disagree with the book at all, second one I won't look at just due to the title. Any reference to segregation offends my sensibilities.

I think that second title actually proves the point of the first book for republicans AND democrats. Mention Jim Crow and it is code for "distrust white people".

Politics right now are all about one thing, controlling the poor and middle class by convincing them the economy isn't tanking. It's not either party, it's both.....and the entire DC establishment.

If any of you are letting your kids' future rest on liberal arts/history/music you're making a mistake. There are a lot of broke musicians in NYC who have been laid off the past few years, and history teachers and sociologists driving cabs due to cuts. It will get much worse.

[dobrojim]

Politics, past present and future, is about power; obtaining it and maintaining it.

I do have a daughter attending a liberal arts college FWIW. She is an excellent writer
already and I expect at the end of her four years (she just started), she will be an
even better writer/communicator. She also has great leadership skills. She is already
the SGA (student govt) social media coordinator so she is 'in charge' of their social
media presence (FB, Twitter, Instagram and tumblr).

Considering the reality of mass incarceration, I could hardly blame persons of color
from 'distrusting white people'. The statistics and impact are staggering.

[Induveca]

Considering the reality of mass incarceration, I could hardly blame persons of color
from 'distrusting white people'. The statistics and impact are staggering.

I'm a person of color. I've lived all around the world, and the U.S. has a new special breed of racism. Things have become infinitely more racially charged over the past decade, mostly media and politics. But it's a "oh the poor minority" vibe. This keeps the idiots in DC in power and two ideologies battling. Welfare state vs supporting innovation and business. How do you innovate when you're taken care of like a child?

It's very different from the early 90s style racism. I never experienced this "white guilt" stuff in Europe. I never even experienced it in the US until Obama got elected. I got everything by working my ass off......zero investment in my early years. Lately?

It's a bizarre, almost ignorant/pathetic "empathy". I get a lot of "good for you" comments, a lot of when they find out I'm Dominican the same people say crazy stuff like "oh you're not black then, where is the Dominican Republic?". All of it is insane and insulting. I've even been asked if my entire company is "African American" after explaining I'm Dominican.

Please everyone just work hard, watch financial trends and just make wise decisions based on the coming work and financial climates.

Contract my services if they are ideal, not because you're doing me a favor. You're *not* doing me any favors by setting that tone. I don't need corporate charity or social charity. I've worked too hard to transport me back 20 years. I'd prefer racism with a frown instead of "white guilt" racism accompanied by a payoff.

Also help me get my idiot cousins off welfare by stopping all the damn assistance programs. I feel like my entire old neighborhood sits around and plays playstation 4 all day and max out their food stamp cards in teams of 4 on steak and Gatorade.

Lastly, and I know CCJ will agree with me at least on this point. Reform the family courts in poor neighborhoods. I've known too many guys scammed by conniving women in poor neighborhoods. I've seen guys go from making 100k a year and taking a 50k job just to not support their ex-wife's free ride to such a large extent.

[dobrojim]

I think we are talking past each other...

It doesn't make me happy to say it's not the first time.

There's a lot of things there but I'm not getting a clear understanding of your point re
mass incarceration which is I think what we were talking about. But maybe I shouldn't
be surprised. Given your initial comment.

Don't disagree with the book at all, second one I won't look at just due to the title. Any reference to segregation offends my sensibilities.

Totally your prerogative, but if that's your position, I needn't have bothered trying to discuss
it with you. I apologize for wasting your time.

My wife often tries to talk to me about movies she sees. I don't go to a lot of movies so
most of the time, I will not have seen the movie she's trying to talk to me about.
Unless I've seen it, which is most movies, I would rather she not try to engage me about
something I don't know anything about. I'm weird like that.

[Induveca]

I think we are talking past each other...

It doesn't make me happy to say it's not the first time.

There's a lot of things there but I'm not getting a clear understanding of your point re
mass incarceration which is I think what we were talking about. But maybe I shouldn't
be surprised. Given your initial comment.

Don't disagree with the book at all, second one I won't look at just due to the title. Any reference to segregation offends my sensibilities.

Totally your prerogative, but if that's your position, I needn't have bothered trying to discuss
it with you. I apologize for wasting your time.

My wife often tries to talk to me about movies she sees. I don't go to a lot of movies so
most of the time, I will not have seen the movie she's trying to talk to me about.
Unless I've seen it, which is most movies, I would rather she not try to engage me about
something I don't know anything about. I'm weird like that.

If it makes the argument easier I get it, the first book and the description were really all I needed to know. I simply don't like the sensationalism of claiming there are new "Jim Crow" laws as I work with an immensely diverse crowd. Exponentially more diverse than 20 years ago.

I read through the description, I get the claim I simply don't agree with it....just goes back into claiming some nefarious conspiracy I simply don't see. Certainly convenient if you don't work hard enough or choose an obviously dying profession, or have kids at 19-25. Lessen your options in this economic climate you reap what you sow sadly. I don't see if having anything to do with a conspiracy by the "elite".

Certainly not in New York/LA/SF. If your skills are in demand you get hired and paid a LOT. Walk into a hedge fund. You'll find the most diverse group of people in any office in the US outside of Google/Oracle/Facebook tech companies. High tech/finance is the way to go.

We all want the best for everyone, free money for those complaining isn't the way.

[dobrojim]

Who is asking for free money? Are you talking about reparations?
I could see how one might want to describe that as 'free money'.
I could also see how others might describe it in other ways.

Re Mass Incarceration - I read the book. I don't recall any particular claims
of a conspiracy, nefarious or otherwise. Maybe my memory is poor.
That said, the data is what the data is. There is little disparity between
races in reported drug usage. There is a tremendous disparity in who
gets arrested. There is also a tremendous disparity in what happens
after one gets arrested. And there is an extremely punitive aspect
to having been arrested even after a sentence is served. Your life is
basically ruined. And you have no rights anymore. The discrimination
you face is legal. You can't vote to change it because you can't vote.
And this happens to an extraordinarily disproportionate degree to
people of color. That's what I recall as the take home message of
the book. A lot of white people don't have much sympathy or interest
in changing this. It's not a comfortable thing to live with if you have
much sense of justice.

[Induveca]

[pineappleheadindc]

My daughter is 7.

She can't wait to go vote with me on Tuesday. She's gone with me to vote in every election since she was born. she tries, on her own, to keep up with who's running. And talks about it at the dinner table.

As a parent, I always worry about if I'm teaching my little one as best as can be. But on this one little area, voting and engagement, I think she's going to be a pretty good and smart citizen.

Sorry, board, for the daddy bragging. Oh, and everyone go and vote on 'tuesday.

[Zonkerbl]

Catania or Bowser?

My very superficial understanding is Bowser has gotten this far mainly by being nonconfrontational and that's the last thing I want. Catania's reputation as kind of a jerk is a point in his favor in my book.

Bowser did just come out as gay, though, so good for her.

[Induveca]

DC shall be mine!

[montestewart]

Catania or Bowser?

My very superficial understanding is Bowser has gotten this far mainly by being nonconfrontational and that's the last thing I want. Catania's reputation as kind of a jerk is a point in his favor in my book.

Bowser did just come out as gay, though, so good for her.

Catania. Bowser non-confrontationalism is quite like Gray's, quite unlike Fenty's, and is not what DC needs. Catania jumped the Republican ship years ago, and his allegiance is more openly to his constituents rather than to party politics. He respects social issues (he has a heart), while not being an idiot about money and entrenched incompetence. Sure, he can be a dick, but I'll bet our 1920s era alley (the only one for ten blocks in all directions in such crappy condition, as we've been "third" on the repaving list for more than ten years) finally gets replaced if he becomes mayor. He also has a good working relationship with presumptive council chair Phil Mendelson.

[W. Unseld]

Dobri--I have a very politically diverse family & politically diverse friends (why do I sound like such a dweeb whenever I post to this thread?) anywho you may or may not be heartened to know that a conservative sent me a book called "3 Felonies for Every Man" & the gist is we've made everything a crime & criminal charges--much less criminal sentences--ruin people's lives. Absolutely agree on the prison disparity as well though there are some practical reasons for that but it's still a huge problem that needs to be corrected. Most libertarians would absolutely agree with you on this issue.

Someone mentioned reforming family court. As former court appointed counsel years ago when I was fresh out of law school I would agree. The legal definition of assault in Virginia doesn't require any actual touching & battery is the slightest unwanted touch. I can count on one hand the amount of times there was actual evidence against the guy (photos or hospital report of an actual injury--any sort of witness other than the accuser etc.) but "beyond a reasonable doubt" goes out the window bc no judge wants to be seen as soft on that issue. I can also count on one finger how many times false report charges were filed once it was clear the accuser was lying. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of valid complaints but there was also a whole lot of gaming the system to get revenge on your cheating boyfriend/spouse or to set yourself up nicely for the divorce.

Child support should require some minimal form of accounting & being able to prove you're not dad should get you off the hook every time, believe it or not that's not necessarily the case now.