Political Roundtable - Part VI

[Nivek]

Or maybe a Unicorn magically appeared and headbutted Wilson.

Do we just start making up scenarios now? Do we completely ignore the presented evidence to back a conspiracy theory, create false charges, and imprison an innocent officer?

The Supreme Court took that scenario into account with two cases in the 1980s. Like it or not, under MULTIPLE federal and state laws/statutes Wilson is innocent by default. If a cop says someone whom he just killed reached for his gun and punched him prior, and there is enough evidence to corroborate his claim there is no crime. Policemen wield godlike power, and they should be feared. As to the state of Wilson's character, I have no clue.

I will state AGAIN, the Supreme Court language from the 80s needs review it is far far too broad.

Want to see a made up scenario, try reading Wilson's story.

Could you peer into your crystal ball and tell me the lotto numbers for tomorrow?

Which lottery?

Seriously though, have you read Wilson's story? It strikes you as believable?

[nate33]

Well that's terrifying. Apparently the cops are trained to shout "stop reaching for my gun!" whenever they're in a physical confrontation with a suspect, in order to justify deadly force later.

Still think we should trust cops implicitly Nate?

Oh, I see your point now. Clearly, since there are a couple of dirty cops in Bloomfield NJ, Mike Brown must have been murdered.

It's almost like you're making sweeping generalizations about a whole class of people based on the actions of a few. There's a word for that, but I'm drawing a blank right now.

[nate33]

Brown assaulting Wilson and attempting to grab his gun was wrong, very WRONG.

Wilson pursuing Brown with his gun drawn when Brown was attempting to run away was also WRONG and a clear recipe for disaster.

Really?

You are honestly advocating that cops just let violent criminals run off and then just hope they can find them later?

[Zonkerbl]

Well that's terrifying. Apparently the cops are trained to shout "stop reaching for my gun!" whenever they're in a physical confrontation with a suspect, in order to justify deadly force later.

Still think we should trust cops implicitly Nate?

Oh, I see your point now. Clearly, since there are a couple of dirty cops in Bloomfield NJ, Mike Brown must have been murdered.

It's almost like you're making sweeping generalizations about a whole class of people based on the actions of a few. There's a word for that, but I'm drawing a blank right now.

I like this game. No need to argue facts, let's just make bs claims about what the other person believes! So you think all black people should be lynched, Nate?

[Nivek]

Brown assaulting Wilson and attempting to grab his gun was wrong, very WRONG.

Wilson pursuing Brown with his gun drawn when Brown was attempting to run away was also WRONG and a clear recipe for disaster.

Really?

You are honestly advocating that cops just let violent criminals run off and then just hope they can find them later?

Well, there's another way to look at that question. Do you really want cops chasing people down residential streets while firing their guns?

[nate33]

Well that's terrifying. Apparently the cops are trained to shout "stop reaching for my gun!" whenever they're in a physical confrontation with a suspect, in order to justify deadly force later.

Still think we should trust cops implicitly Nate?

Oh, I see your point now. Clearly, since there are a couple of dirty cops in Bloomfield NJ, Mike Brown must have been murdered.

It's almost like you're making sweeping generalizations about a whole class of people based on the actions of a few. There's a word for that, but I'm drawing a blank right now.

I like this game. No need to argue facts, let's just make bs claims about what the other person believes! So you think all black people should be lynched, Nate?

You missed my point. It was satire. I'm intentionally making a wild accusation to illustrate how you accused me of racism a few days ago.

And you're the one not presenting facts. How in the world does an anecdote from an incident 1000 miles away have any bearing on what happened in Ferguson?

[Zonkerbl]

Here's Mike Brown's toxicology report. I wonder how much thc is a lot?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/244139581/Mic ... ogy-Report

[nate33]

Brown assaulting Wilson and attempting to grab his gun was wrong, very WRONG.

Wilson pursuing Brown with his gun drawn when Brown was attempting to run away was also WRONG and a clear recipe for disaster.

Really?

You are honestly advocating that cops just let violent criminals run off and then just hope they can find them later?

Well, there's another way to look at that question. Do you really want cops chasing people down residential streets while firing their guns?

First off, guns weren't fired until Brown turned and rushed Wilson. And yes, I want cops to chase suspects and do their best to either catch them or track them while reinforcements arrive.

Imagine if Wilson simply let Brown run away as DCZards suggests. Them imagine that Brown attacked or hurt somebody shortly afterwards. I guarantee you that the cops would be blamed for not apprehending a violent criminal because he fled into a black neighborhood and they don't care about the well being of black citizens.

Again, we are twisting all logic and reason to try to paint the cops as being in the wrong. Of course Wilson should chase Brown. That's what you do when there is a violent criminal on the loose.

[Zonkerbl]

Oh, I see your point now. Clearly, since there are a couple of dirty cops in Bloomfield NJ, Mike Brown must have been murdered.

It's almost like you're making sweeping generalizations about a whole class of people based on the actions of a few. There's a word for that, but I'm drawing a blank right now.

I like this game. No need to argue facts, let's just make bs claims about what the other person believes! So you think all black people should be lynched, Nate?

You missed my point. It was satire. I'm intentionally making a wild accusation to illustrate how you accused me of racism a few days ago.

And you're the one not presenting facts. How in the world does an anecdote from an incident 1000 miles away have any bearing on what happened in Ferguson?

I'm not going to apologize for pointing out that an argument you made was racist. I stand by what I said. Nothing you've said since has convinced me I was wrong to point that out either.

[Induveca]

Want to see a made up scenario, try reading Wilson's story.

Could you peer into your crystal ball and tell me the lotto numbers for tomorrow?

Which lottery?

Seriously though, have you read Wilson's story? It strikes you as believable?

Ha, Powerball please.

I did read the story, it does sound pretty believable. Multiple eyewitnesses stated Brown had ducked his head into the car. What exactly would he be doing ducking his head into a police car? At that point obviously the gun is in play by default.

It just seemed like Brown was building up some bizarre drug-induced rage. That's the reason I find the store video relevant, he's stealing cigars for drug use, shoving the store owner and walking down the middle of the street then suddenly diving into a cop car to brawl. If he stole a pack of Doritos I may have a different take.

[Induveca]

Here's Mike Brown's toxicology report. I wonder how much thc is a lot?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/244139581/Mic ... ogy-Report

http://www.nhtsa.gov/PEOPLE/INJURY/rese ... nnabis.htm

Not that weed should cause violence (except for rare psychosis) but he was extremely high during this entire event based on the toxicology report. The effects of marijuana are so varied, there is no way to tell how exactly this impacted the event. It only lets us know he was at a very high THC concentration level.

[Nivek]

Really?

You are honestly advocating that cops just let violent criminals run off and then just hope they can find them later?

Well, there's another way to look at that question. Do you really want cops chasing people down residential streets while firing their guns?

First off, guns weren't fired until Brown turned and rushed Wilson.

IF he rushed Wilson. That part of the story is in some dispute.

And yes, I want cops to chase suspects and do their best to either catch them or track them while reinforcements arrive.

Imagine if Wilson simply let Brown run away as DCZards suggests. Them imagine that Brown attacked or hurt somebody shortly afterwards. I guarantee you that the cops would be blamed for not apprehending a violent criminal because he fled into a black neighborhood and they don't care about the well being of black citizens.

Again, we are twisting all logic and reason to try to paint the cops as being in the wrong. Of course Wilson should chase Brown. That's what you do when there is a violent criminal on the loose.

I agree with you that it's reasonable for Wilson to have pursued Brown. In general, a cop's job is to apprehend someone who's dangerous. And, I agree that if Brown had escaped and hurt someone else, there'd be fuss about Wilson letting him get away.

What I don't know is how the fight started (back at the SUV). Wilson's version isn't believable to me. And, it's not clear to me that the shooting in the street (after the chase) was justifiable either. I don't find Wilson's story to be credible.

There should have been a trial in which the various competing pieces of evidence (and interpretations of the evidence) could be subjected to the adversarial process -- with one side prosecuting a case and the other side defending. At the grand jury, the prosecutor did both jobs. Which is problematic.

[Induveca]

There should have been a trial in which the various competing pieces of evidence (and interpretations of the evidence) could be subjected to the adversarial process -- with one side prosecuting a case and the other side defending. At the grand jury, the prosecutor did both jobs. Which is problematic.

What you're missing is under the circumstances, a criminal trial isn't even technically a possibility. Read up on "qualified immunity" for police officers, combined with the previously mentioned Supreme Court decisions in the 80s. It all boils down to the "reasonable" argument.

Barring a Rodney King like video, Wilson has/had zero chance of going to trial. This immunity even extends to a civil trial.....barring irrefutable proof of Wilson violating Brown's civl rights (hence my reference to the Rodney King video). Technically the family could still sue a branch of government, but not Wilson.

Disturbing.

[nate33]

Well, there's another way to look at that question. Do you really want cops chasing people down residential streets while firing their guns?

First off, guns weren't fired until Brown turned and rushed Wilson.

IF he rushed Wilson. That part of the story is in some dispute.

All shots were fired at Brown's front, not back. Eyewitness accounts confirm that Brown closed the distance between he and Wilson as the shots were fired. The final shots had a downward trajectory at an angle toward to top of Brown's head and shoulders. The shot casings show a pattern that Wilson was actually retreating as he was firing. (Admittedly, the shot casing pattern isn't particularly reliable due to the general randomness in which they are typically ejected and bounce around.)

Maybe an argument could be made that Brown charged Wilson out of self defense, or that he somehow stumbled and fell forward randomly as he was being shot, but let's not make it sound like Wilson was chasing Brown and haphazardly shooting Brown in the back while in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, if he was super high...

Stoned Mike Brown, giggling, grabs cigarillos from store counter. So stoned he doesn't give a ****. Pushes the counter guy away.

Wilson approaches in squad car. Stoned Mike Brown is all up in his face, whatsup officer? Wilson says why don't you get up on the sidewalk young man? Stoned Mike Brown is like, f you, 50, make me.

Yeah, if you rewrite Wilson's testimony from describing a roid raged gangsta rap stereotype to a totally stoned dude on a kind of honey badger high I can see it kind of going down the way Wilson described, except without the rage and the reaching for the gun and all that madeup bs.

I think Wilson was a rookie who had absolutely no idea what was going on or what to do about it and overreacted because he's a cowardly racist who painted a terrifying picture in his mind about what was happening.

That's what gets me. I don't give a damn if Wilson was guilty of something or what. It's idiots like Wilson that are why so many black kids get shot for no reason. It's not right.

[Zonkerbl]

I had a young dude get on the metro at Rhode Island who was obviously high and totally aggressive, not because he was high but because he had his friends with him and he wanted to show off.

Yeah, I'm starting to get what happened. If he was high, hanging with his best friend, wanted to impress him with how tough he was... Dumbass. And screw Wilson for his crazy racist reaction. Dude should never have been issued a firearm.

[Induveca]

Well, if he was super high...

Stoned Mike Brown, giggling, grabs cigarillos from store counter. So stoned he doesn't give a ****. Pushes the counter guy away.

Wilson approaches in squad car. Stoned Mike Brown is all up in his face, whatsup officer? Wilson says why don't you get up on the sidewalk young man? Stoned Mike Brown is like, f you, 50, make me.

Yeah, if you rewrite Wilson's testimony from describing a roid raged gangsta rap stereotype to a totally stoned dude on a kind of honey badger high I can see it kind of going down the way Wilson described, except without the rage and the reaching for the gun and all that madeup bs.

I think Wilson was a rookie who had absolutely no idea what was going on or what to do about it and overreacted because he's a cowardly racist who painted a terrifying picture in his mind about what was happening.

That's what gets me. I don't give a damn if Wilson was guilty of something or what. It's idiots like Wilson that are why so many black kids get shot for no reason. It's not right.

I actually agree with most everything you said here. It's the core disconnect between poor communities and the police I've mentioned a few times. The cops are usually scared, and many kids are embracing a wannabe thug/gangster role with the weed culture. It's a recipe for disaster on both sides.

Marijuana however does NOT chill everyone out. I've known people to become abusive/manipulative and violent on marijuana if it was already somewhat in their nature. Interesting read on marijuana and aggression. Basically studies have shown marijuana can make already violent people MORE violent in many situations, especially adolescents.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/aggression.pdf

[Induveca]

I had a young dude get on the metro at Rhode Island who was obviously high and totally aggressive, not because he was high but because he had his friends with him and he wanted to show off.

Yeah, I'm starting to get what happened. If he was high, hanging with his best friend, wanted to impress him with how tough he was... Dumbass. And screw Wilson for his crazy racist reaction. Dude should never have been issued a firearm.

Pretty much my exact take Zonk. Except the racist part (although obviously possible).

I've seen cops of all races treat poor black/latino/white neighborhood kids in uptown Manhattan and Miami like trash. In my experience, NYC/Miami cops seem to hate the fake "thug life" hip hop culture more than anything.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The only thing that makes sense to me is Wilson rolled up on Brown in a matter that invited verbal discourse and physical altercation. After that all hell broke loose. Wilson's lack of discretion at the very start IMO set things in motion. He went cowboy up. A better approach could have been employed.

Distance, superior force of two or more officers, use of a loud speaker and a command to halt followed by silence could have taken place.

I think anger, not fear, is what motivated Wilson to empty that many rounds into Brown. I think Wilson was angry from the start. He got up close and personal. He was not professional IMO.

I understand the frustration over the grand jury findings.

Better policing could have been exercised.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Well, if he was super high...

Stoned Mike Brown, giggling, grabs cigarillos from store counter. So stoned he doesn't give a ****. Pushes the counter guy away.

Wilson approaches in squad car. Stoned Mike Brown is all up in his face, whatsup officer? Wilson says why don't you get up on the sidewalk young man? Stoned Mike Brown is like, f you, 50, make me.

Yeah, if you rewrite Wilson's testimony from describing a roid raged gangsta rap stereotype to a totally stoned dude on a kind of honey badger high I can see it kind of going down the way Wilson described, except without the rage and the reaching for the gun and all that madeup bs.

I think Wilson was a rookie who had absolutely no idea what was going on or what to do about it and overreacted because he's a cowardly racist who painted a terrifying picture in his mind about what was happening.

That's what gets me. I don't give a damn if Wilson was guilty of something or what. It's idiots like Wilson that are why so many black kids get shot for no reason. It's not right.

I actually agree with most everything you said here. It's the core disconnect between poor communities and the police I've mentioned a few times. The cops are usually scared, and many kids are embracing a wannabe thug/gangster role with the weed culture. It's a recipe for disaster on both sides.

Marijuana however does NOT chill everyone out. I've known people to become abusive/manipulative and violent on marijuana if it was already somewhat in their nature. Interesting read on marijuana and aggression. Basically studies have shown marijuana can make already violent people MORE violent in many situations, especially adolescents.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/aggression.pdf

I think you are on point, Zonker and Induveca.

I also think an experienced cop would have acted much more authoritatively and with less zeal to rush in.

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