Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[SUPERBALLMAN]

As long as we are in the realm of the ridiculous (i.e. the Clippers trading Chris Paul and/or somehow not retaining DeAndre Jordan), how about this: we trade John Wall and Marcin Gortat for Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan (once he's been re-signed and after time passes sufficient that he can be traded).

Anyone think that'd be a good deal for us? Or for the Clips?

The salary numbers could get tricky. Wall and Gortat combined cost $27M. Jordan and Paul cost $40M.

I don't think I'd do it. If Paul + Jordan + Griffin + Redick couldn't win a title, I don't see how Paul + Jordan + Beal + Porter could. I don't really like that Paul would be in decline as Beal and Porter peak. I like the long term situation with Wall better.

If you wanted to explore this idea, I'd just scale it back to a simple Gortat for Jordan deal.

Now *that* is a GREAT idea. Do it in a minute!!

Right I thought the same thing, Gortat for Jordan in a S&T. Maybe include Webster. I mean I thought one of the reasons for Jordan wanting out was some kind of rift between him and Paul so trading them together wouldn't make sense.

But if he wants out, getting Gortat for a team like the Clippers who are in win now mode could make sense. Gortat is very good, and could be a really good fit with Paul. Cassell is one their staff and knows what he can do. We'd probably have to include a draft pick.

S&T Gortat, Webster, 2016 1st to Clippers for Jordan?


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/dean ... ift-051815

[TheSecretWeapon]

The salary numbers could get tricky. Wall and Gortat combined cost $27M. Jordan and Paul cost $40M.

I don't think I'd do it. If Paul + Jordan + Griffin + Redick couldn't win a title, I don't see how Paul + Jordan + Beal + Porter could. I don't really like that Paul would be in decline as Beal and Porter peak. I like the long term situation with Wall better.

If you wanted to explore this idea, I'd just scale it back to a simple Gortat for Jordan deal.

Now *that* is a GREAT idea. Do it in a minute!!

Right I thought the same thing, Gortat for Jordan in a S&T. Maybe include Webster. I mean I thought one of the reasons for Jordan wanting out was some kind of rift between him and Paul so trading them together wouldn't make sense.

But if he wants out, getting Gortat for a team like the Clippers who are in win now mode could make sense. Gortat is very good, and could be a really good fit with Paul. Cassell is one their staff and knows what he can do. We'd probably have to include a draft pick.

S&T Gortat, Webster, 2016 1st to Clippers for Jordan?


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/dean ... ift-051815

That might be enough. Another option: Gortat and Pierce for Jordan. The Clippers get older, of course, but Pierce (if he can hold up another year) would be a major upgrade at SF for them. Then they'd have some flexibility in the 2016 offseason to replace Pierce.

[LyricalRico]

Gortat + Pierce for Jordan? Very interesting. Eats into 2016 space, obviuously, but gives us a true defensive difference maker in the middle. And he can still run the screen/roll with Wall, John will just be throwing lobs instead of bounce passes.

[barelyawake]

Gortat + Pierce for Jordan? Very interesting. Eats into 2016 space, obviuously, but gives us a true defensive difference maker in the middle. And he can still run the screen/roll with Wall, John will just be throwing lobs instead of bounce passes.

Almost anyone can run screen/roll with Wall. What we need is a difference maker on defense, especially if we are pairing our big with an undersized Durant at PF.

Porter
Durant
Jordan

Is much closer to a championship line-up than with Gortat.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Gortat and Pierce for Jordan? That would just about do it...

Doc Rivers would be fired post haste!

I would become an EG fan if he pulled that deal off. Even with a 2016 1st, the Clippers get taken to the cleaners IMO.

[fishercob]

Gortat + Pierce for Jordan? Very interesting. Eats into 2016 space, obviuously, but gives us a true defensive difference maker in the middle. And he can still run the screen/roll with Wall, John will just be throwing lobs instead of bounce passes.

Almost anyone can run screen/roll with Wall. What we need is a difference maker on defense, especially if we are pairing our big with an undersized Durant at PF.

Porter
Durant
Jordan

Is much closer to a championship line-up than with Gortat.

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

[barelyawake]

Gortat + Pierce for Jordan? Very interesting. Eats into 2016 space, obviuously, but gives us a true defensive difference maker in the middle. And he can still run the screen/roll with Wall, John will just be throwing lobs instead of bounce passes.

Almost anyone can run screen/roll with Wall. What we need is a difference maker on defense, especially if we are pairing our big with an undersized Durant at PF.

Porter
Durant
Jordan

Is much closer to a championship line-up than with Gortat.

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

Offense would come via Durant. And regular season stats mean close to nothing to me. We need a star big for the big show. One who will get the ref whistle on the 50/50 calls. I'm unsure how many times we have to watch Gortat lose out on those types of calls when it matters, or watch him rotate late, before we get we need a true star (not a second round pick who ever got a name because of Nash and Wall). I like Gortat. But, he has no cred with the refs, and never will. He can't create his own shot. And he still has mental lapses on defense. He's not the guy to take us to the next level,

PS I'd love to have a two way playing big who can create his own shot in the post. But, Jordan would do just as well as Gortat on offense (in other words dunk John Wall passes), and would be much better defensively.

[fishercob]

Almost anyone can run screen/roll with Wall. What we need is a difference maker on defense, especially if we are pairing our big with an undersized Durant at PF.

Porter
Durant
Jordan

Is much closer to a championship line-up than with Gortat.

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

Offense would come via Durant. And regular season stats mean close to nothing to me. We need a star big for the big show. One who will get the ref whistle on the 50/50 calls. I'm unsure how many times we have to watch Gortat lose out on those types of calls when it matters, or watch him rotate late, before we get we need a true star (not a second round pick who ever got a name because of Nash and Wall). I like Gortat. But, he has no cred with the refs, and never will. He can't create his own shot. And he still has mental lapses on defense. He's not the guy to take us to the next level,

PS I'd love to have a two way playing big who can create his own shot in the post. But, Jordan would do just as well as Gortat on offense (in other words dunk John Wall passes), and would be much better defensively.

I agree Jordan is the better player, but the cost difference in a capped system doesn't seem to justify having Jordan over Gortat. The Clips -- led by Jordan and 1st team All-D Chris Paul -- were merely 15th in defense. I'm all for getting Durant (or Love) to improve the offense, but I'm not convinced Jordan actually appreciable improves the Wizards D.

As for calls -- i know it's your hot button issue. Let's say you did have some evidence that the Wizards would get more calls with Jordan on their team than Gortat -- would you want him on the line? Of course not.

Take a look at their career numbers: http://bkref.com/tiny/zkRsk

Remarkably similar, including minutes played.

[barelyawake]

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

Offense would come via Durant. And regular season stats mean close to nothing to me. We need a star big for the big show. One who will get the ref whistle on the 50/50 calls. I'm unsure how many times we have to watch Gortat lose out on those types of calls when it matters, or watch him rotate late, before we get we need a true star (not a second round pick who ever got a name because of Nash and Wall). I like Gortat. But, he has no cred with the refs, and never will. He can't create his own shot. And he still has mental lapses on defense. He's not the guy to take us to the next level,

PS I'd love to have a two way playing big who can create his own shot in the post. But, Jordan would do just as well as Gortat on offense (in other words dunk John Wall passes), and would be much better defensively.

I agree Jordan is the better player, but the cost difference in a capped system doesn't seem to justify having Jordan over Gortat. The Clips -- led by Jordan and 1st team All-D Chris Paul -- were merely 15th in defense. I'm all for getting Durant (or Love) to improve the offense, but I'm not convinced Jordan actually appreciable improves the Wizards D.

As for calls -- i know it's your hot button issue. Let's say you did have some evidence that the Wizards would get more calls with Jordan on their team than Gortat -- would you want him on the line? Of course not.

Take a look at their career numbers: http://bkref.com/tiny/zkRsk

Remarkably similar, including minutes played.

Now that's a valid point. And Jordan was not my first choice. Cousins, Aldridge, etc are. Good point.

[payitforward]

Cousins also doesn't have a Wall getting him the ball in the post. One day, I hope to see what Wall can do with an actual force of nature in the post to whom he can dish. One day. I hope.

Another trip to fantasyland... Wall makes Cousins better, then Cousins makes Wall better -- presumably, then once again Wall makes Cousins better, and Cousins makes... and so forth.

[barelyawake]

Cousins also doesn't have a Wall getting him the ball in the post. One day, I hope to see what Wall can do with an actual force of nature in the post to whom he can dish. One day. I hope.

Another trip to fantasyland... Wall makes Cousins better, then Cousins makes Wall better -- presumably, then once again Wall makes Cousins better, and Cousins makes... and so forth.

No personal attacks
- nate33

If you don't think that all star, pass first point Wall passing to Cousins (you know, best friends who have played together) is better for Cousins than anyone he has played with thus far, then I don't know what to tell you. You think players play the way they play despite their teammates whether it's a pass first point looking to help them or a score first guy who doesn't. I disagree. And, from experience, stop trying to argue nonsense (there is zero to be gained from it) and go have fun.

[jivelikenice]

Does OKC still have to dump some salary if they intend on re-singing Kanter. Not sure what their up to date luxury tax situation is. If they are how about taking Morrow on with one of our exceptions in exchange for flip flopping positions in Rd 1?

[payitforward]

...If it was even up Gortat for Cousins, I'd make the trade and hope the coaches could help him play better. His ceiling is much higher than Gortat's. On balance, I'd rather have the next four years from Cousins than the next four of Gortat.

I would almost certainly *not* trade Gortat for Cousins, Kev. You say Cousins' "ceiling is much higher than Gortat's," and I understand what you mean. The problem is that I don't have confidence in Cousins reaching that ceiling -- or even reaching for that ceiling.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted, but he's been in the league 5 years, and he hasn't altered his pattern of liking the ball in his hands, operating one on one, and (waaay too often) rising for a mid-range jumper that he misses. I just don't see the effort in the right direction from the guy. And if not in 5 years, why in the next 4 years?

Put more prosaically, season to season his numbers have not moved in that direction: I have no confidence that they'll move in that direction in the future, whether he's w/ Sacramento or elsewhere. Nor do I see a reason to think that the fact that he and Wall are buddies would be an inducement to change -- I can more easily see their friendship as in the way of change.

In short, it's the "On balance" I'm questioning -- what supports the considerations?

Agree with you that Gortat for Jordan is a no-brainer.

And, obviously, I'd trade Cousins for Jordan in a heartbeat as well.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

Offense would come via Durant. And regular season stats mean close to nothing to me. We need a star big for the big show. One who will get the ref whistle on the 50/50 calls. I'm unsure how many times we have to watch Gortat lose out on those types of calls when it matters, or watch him rotate late, before we get we need a true star (not a second round pick who ever got a name because of Nash and Wall). I like Gortat. But, he has no cred with the refs, and never will. He can't create his own shot. And he still has mental lapses on defense. He's not the guy to take us to the next level,

PS I'd love to have a two way playing big who can create his own shot in the post. But, Jordan would do just as well as Gortat on offense (in other words dunk John Wall passes), and would be much better defensively.

I agree Jordan is the better player, but the cost difference in a capped system doesn't seem to justify having Jordan over Gortat. The Clips -- led by Jordan and 1st team All-D Chris Paul -- were merely 15th in defense. I'm all for getting Durant (or Love) to improve the offense, but I'm not convinced Jordan actually appreciable improves the Wizards D.

As for calls -- i know it's your hot button issue. Let's say you did have some evidence that the Wizards would get more calls with Jordan on their team than Gortat -- would you want him on the line? Of course not.

Take a look at their career numbers: http://bkref.com/tiny/zkRsk

Remarkably similar, including minutes played.

Stats are similar, which is why the trade might be feasible. The Clippers can replace the production and continue their push for a championship run if they're going to lose him. For us the main motivation to the trade would be Gortat is 31 and Jordan is 26. He was also NBA All-Defensive 1st Team this year and led the NBA in rebounding.

[payitforward]

Cousins also doesn't have a Wall getting him the ball in the post. One day, I hope to see what Wall can do with an actual force of nature in the post to whom he can dish. One day. I hope.

Another trip to fantasyland... Wall makes Cousins better, then Cousins makes Wall better -- presumably, then once again Wall makes Cousins better, and Cousins makes... and so forth.

If you don't think that all star, pass first point Wall passing to Cousins (you know, best friends who have played together) is better for Cousins than anyone he has played with thus far, then I don't know what to tell you. You think players play the way they play despite their teammates whether it's a pass first point looking to help them or a score first guy who doesn't. I disagree. And, from experience, stop trying to argue nonsense (there is zero to be gained from it) and go have fun.

You'll have to pedal hard my friend to ever have as much fun in your life as I've had -- and I wish it for you too!

And I don't "think players play the way they play despite their teammates" I think they play the way they play *with* their teammates, but in fact it's not really something I "think." It's something that can be studied, has been studied, and overall has been shown to be true.

Now, of course it might be different in this case -- and especially because you really really want it to be different. And "from experience" you have playing professional sports (really? do tell all) you know that you must be right.

[TheSecretWeapon]

...If it was even up Gortat for Cousins, I'd make the trade and hope the coaches could help him play better. His ceiling is much higher than Gortat's. On balance, I'd rather have the next four years from Cousins than the next four of Gortat.

I would almost certainly *not* trade Gortat for Cousins, Kev. You say Cousins' "ceiling is much higher than Gortat's," and I understand what you mean. The problem is that I don't have confidence in Cousins reaching that ceiling -- or even reaching for that ceiling.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted, but he's been in the league 5 years, and he hasn't altered his pattern of liking the ball in his hands, operating one on one, and (waaay too often) rising for a mid-range jumper that he misses. I just don't see the effort in the right direction from the guy. And if not in 5 years, why in the next 4 years?

Put more prosaically, season to season his numbers have not moved in that direction: I have no confidence that they'll move in that direction in the future, whether he's w/ Sacramento or elsewhere. Nor do I see a reason to think that the fact that he and Wall are buddies would be an inducement to change -- I can more easily see their friendship as in the way of change.

In short, it's the "On balance" I'm questioning -- what supports the considerations?

Agree with you that Gortat for Jordan is a no-brainer.

And, obviously, I'd trade Cousins for Jordan in a heartbeat as well.

I can very much understand your reasoning on Cousins -- I mostly share it. I'd be willing to give it a shot to see if I could change him. My guess is that he won't lose value over the next couple years, and could be traded if he doesn't change. At that point, he'd be 26-27, and I think there'd still be a good market for him.

But, I do mostly agree with you. Players don't usually make significant changes to their games -- especially when they've been "successful" doing it the way they've been doing it. And, Cousins likely considers himself successful -- top 5 pick in the draft, All-Rookie, maximum contract, All-Star appearance. So, you're probably right.

[payitforward]

Gortat + Pierce for Jordan? Very interesting. Eats into 2016 space, obviuously, but gives us a true defensive difference maker in the middle. And he can still run the screen/roll with Wall, John will just be throwing lobs instead of bounce passes.

Almost anyone can run screen/roll with Wall. What we need is a difference maker on defense, especially if we are pairing our big with an undersized Durant at PF.

Porter
Durant
Jordan

Is much closer to a championship line-up than with Gortat.

What the WIzards are lacking is a defensive difference maker, eh?

The Wizards have ranked 5th, 8th, and 5th in defense over the past three seasons.

The Wizards need to figure out how to improve their offense -- 22nd, 17th, and 30th the past three seasons.

There are two ways to improve your offense -- either score more efficiently or give yourself more possessions and therefore more chances to score. Dominating the boards gives you that.

I have a been a big fan of Gortat for many years; he's a terrific player. But Jordan is even better -- a lot better.

[payitforward]

...If it was even up Gortat for Cousins, I'd make the trade and hope the coaches could help him play better. His ceiling is much higher than Gortat's. On balance, I'd rather have the next four years from Cousins than the next four of Gortat.

I would almost certainly *not* trade Gortat for Cousins, Kev. You say Cousins' "ceiling is much higher than Gortat's," and I understand what you mean. The problem is that I don't have confidence in Cousins reaching that ceiling -- or even reaching for that ceiling.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted, but he's been in the league 5 years, and he hasn't altered his pattern of liking the ball in his hands, operating one on one, and (waaay too often) rising for a mid-range jumper that he misses. I just don't see the effort in the right direction from the guy. And if not in 5 years, why in the next 4 years?

Put more prosaically, season to season his numbers have not moved in that direction: I have no confidence that they'll move in that direction in the future, whether he's w/ Sacramento or elsewhere. Nor do I see a reason to think that the fact that he and Wall are buddies would be an inducement to change -- I can more easily see their friendship as in the way of change.

In short, it's the "On balance" I'm questioning -- what supports the considerations?

Agree with you that Gortat for Jordan is a no-brainer.

And, obviously, I'd trade Cousins for Jordan in a heartbeat as well.

I can very much understand your reasoning on Cousins -- I mostly share it. I'd be willing to give it a shot to see if I could change him. My guess is that he won't lose value over the next couple years, and could be traded if he doesn't change. At that point, he'd be 26-27, and I think there'd still be a good market for him.

But, I do mostly agree with you. Players don't usually make significant changes to their games -- especially when they've been "successful" doing it the way they've been doing it. And, Cousins likely considers himself successful -- top 5 pick in the draft, All-Rookie, maximum contract, All-Star appearance. So, you're probably right.

We'll never know....

And of course it's easy for me to be certain of this, that or the other thing -- what do I have on the line? If I was to be held responsible for outcomes, I'd have to go a great slower in coming to a conclusion and acting on it.

(But I still think I'm right... )

[barelyawake]

Another trip to fantasyland... Wall makes Cousins better, then Cousins makes Wall better -- presumably, then once again Wall makes Cousins better, and Cousins makes... and so forth.

If you don't think that all star, pass first point Wall passing to Cousins (you know, best friends who have played together) is better for Cousins than anyone he has played with thus far, then I don't know what to tell you. You think players play the way they play despite their teammates whether it's a pass first point looking to help them or a score first guy who doesn't. I disagree. And, from experience, stop trying to argue nonsense (there is zero to be gained from it) and go have fun.

You'll have to pedal hard my friend to ever have as much fun in your life as I've had -- and I wish it for you too!

And I don't "think players play the way they play despite their teammates" I think they play the way they play *with* their teammates, but in fact it's not really something I "think." It's something that can be studied, has been studied, and overall has been shown to be true.

Now, of course it might be different in this case -- and especially because you really really want it to be different. And "from experience" you have playing professional sports (really? do tell all) you know that you must be right.

lol pay, I said from experience about being on the net and arguing. Here's something that will obviously make you happy and fulfill your life, you win. I honestly could care less. I'll still hold my opinion that two best friends who have played together who honestly want to help each other succeed play better together. You disagree. And I could care less. You obviously feel some need to argue because you have something lacking somewhere in your life. More power to you.

[barelyawake]

Cousins also doesn't have a Wall getting him the ball in the post. One day, I hope to see what Wall can do with an actual force of nature in the post to whom he can dish. One day. I hope.

Another trip to fantasyland... Wall makes Cousins better, then Cousins makes Wall better -- presumably, then once again Wall makes Cousins better, and Cousins makes... and so forth.

No personal attacks
- nate33

If you don't think that all star, pass first point Wall passing to Cousins (you know, best friends who have played together) is better for Cousins than anyone he has played with thus far, then I don't know what to tell you. You think players play the way they play despite their teammates whether it's a pass first point looking to help them or a score first guy who doesn't. I disagree. And, from experience, stop trying to argue nonsense (there is zero to be gained from it) and go have fun.

I put this guy on ignore for a year. And he kept riding me every post. But, the moment I take him off ignore and respond I get a red mark. I see how it works. Nice.