Random Thoughts Thread Part 4

[AFM]

Gilbert Arenas is the greatest Wizard ever. He gave us SWAG--we suck caulk and have zero swag ever, but he SWAGGED on the entire league, he put his balls in they mouth!!!!

[nate33]

Gilbert Arenas is the greatest Wizard ever. He gave us SWAG--we suck caulk and have zero swag ever, but he SWAGGED on the entire league, he put his balls in they mouth!!!!

Arenas is the only "superstar" this team has ever had. He was the only guy who could impose his will on the game and do whatever he wanted to do. When he had the ball in a late game iso situation, I actually had confidence that we would win.

It was a really special 3-year run with Arenas at his peak.

[DCZards]

Arenas was great but Elvin Hayes was better. The Big E impacted winning in many more ways than Gilbert.

[nate33]

Arenas was great but Elvin Hayes was better. The Big E impacted winning in many more ways than Gilbert.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Hayes was a bit before my time. I vaguely remember him as a kid.

He was All-NBA 1st team in 77 and 79, and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 77, so yeah, that's better than anything Arenas did.

Arenas was All-NBA 2nd team once and 3rd team twice, and he had multiple people vote for him as a top 5 MVP candidate in 2007. That's better than anything Wall or Beal did. (Lots of guys, including John Wall in 2017, will often get one homer MVP vote, so that doesn't really count. But Arenas had 31 MVP points.)

[doclinkin]

Arenas was great but Elvin Hayes was better. The Big E impacted winning in many more ways than Gilbert.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Hayes was a bit before my time. I vaguely remember him as a kid.

He was All-NBA 1st team in 77 and 79, and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 77, so yeah, that's better than anything Arenas did.

Arenas was All-NBA 2nd team once and 3rd team twice, and he had multiple people vote for him as MVP in 2007. That's better than anything Wall or Beal did. (Lots of guys, including John Wall in 2017, will often get one homer MVP vote, so that doesn't really count. But Arenas had 31 MVP points.)

Wes Sr who won MVP and ROY the same year? I didn’t see him play but seems like he did exert his will on the game.

[nate33]

Arenas was great but Elvin Hayes was better. The Big E impacted winning in many more ways than Gilbert.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Hayes was a bit before my time. I vaguely remember him as a kid.

He was All-NBA 1st team in 77 and 79, and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 77, so yeah, that's better than anything Arenas did.

Arenas was All-NBA 2nd team once and 3rd team twice, and he had multiple people vote for him as MVP in 2007. That's better than anything Wall or Beal did. (Lots of guys, including John Wall in 2017, will often get one homer MVP vote, so that doesn't really count. But Arenas had 31 MVP points.)

Wes Sr who won MVP and ROY the same year? I didn’t see him play but seems like he did exert his will on the game.

I dunno. I look at the numbers and I see 13 points and 18 boards on 47% FG%. Even the rebounding wasn't quite as awesome as one would think. He ranked 5th in the league in rebounds per game that year.

It really looks like a fluke, narrative-driven award to me. He didn't even make another All-NBA team (1st or 2nd team) over the rest of his career, in a league with just 14 teams. That's like not even making 4th team All-NBA today (if they had one).

[DCZards]

Arenas was great but Elvin Hayes was better. The Big E impacted winning in many more ways than Gilbert.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Hayes was a bit before my time. I vaguely remember him as a kid.

He was All-NBA 1st team in 77 and 79, and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 77, so yeah, that's better than anything Arenas did.

Arenas was All-NBA 2nd team once and 3rd team twice, and he had multiple people vote for him as a top 5 MVP candidate in 2007. That's better than anything Wall or Beal did. (Lots of guys, including John Wall in 2017, will often get one homer MVP vote, so that doesn't really count. But Arenas had 31 MVP points.)

The Big E was sorta the anti-Arenas. Where Gil was fun and loveable, Hayes was usually surly and, I’m sure, difficult with the media.

Wes was the homegrown talent while the Big E was the hired gun from Houston who was brought here to win…and never became even close to the fan fav that Wes did. That’s my recall anyway.

[montestewart]

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Hayes was a bit before my time. I vaguely remember him as a kid.

He was All-NBA 1st team in 77 and 79, and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 77, so yeah, that's better than anything Arenas did.

Arenas was All-NBA 2nd team once and 3rd team twice, and he had multiple people vote for him as MVP in 2007. That's better than anything Wall or Beal did. (Lots of guys, including John Wall in 2017, will often get one homer MVP vote, so that doesn't really count. But Arenas had 31 MVP points.)

Wes Sr who won MVP and ROY the same year? I didn’t see him play but seems like he did exert his will on the game.

I dunno. I look at the numbers and I see 13 points and 18 boards on 47% FG%. Even the rebounding wasn't quite as awesome as one would think. He ranked 5th in the league in rebounds per game that year.

It really looks like a fluke, narrative-driven award to me. He didn't even make another All-NBA team (1st or 2nd team) over the rest of his career, in a league with just 14 teams. That's like not even making 4th team All-NBA today (if they had one).

Yes, a little flukey, but some context on the numbers you cite can help. League average FG% was significantly lower than it is today, even without the three-point shot. Unseld’s career shooting percentage was higher than that of two Celtic MVPs, Bill Russell and Dave Cowens, and Red Auerbach was an admirer of Unseld’s game. Eventually, Unseld’s FG% would routinely be among the league leaders.

Regarding Unseld’s rebounding, yes, he finished fifth that year, but the top five were fairly close, Chamberlain leading with 21.1, and Unseld at 18.2. But Unseld played 36.2 mpg, and the others were well over 40 mpg (which was the norm at the time). Jabbar, who came into the league the next year and overshadowed all other centers, was also a great admirer of Unseld, especially his ability at 6’6” to use his size to block out much taller centers and get the rebound. He was routinely among league leaders in rebounding his entire career, finishing third in his second to last year, when he was completely floor bound.

The main reason he was MVP that year was the fact that the Bullets won 36 games the year before, and 57 games to lead the league his rookie year. Based on contemporaneous accounts, he played like a veteran as a rookie, always being in the right place on offense and defense, sort of a Wide Fundamental. His picks, passing, and full court hockey assists vastly improved the team’s offense. Other than scoring, he had a fairly complete game, despite being pretty slow and having bad knees his entire career. It’s also worth mentioning that his teams made the finals four times.

I didn’t see Unseld play until 1978, three years after his last All-Star game, and he was still doing all the “little things” that don’t always show up in the stat sheet, and still routinely facing off against players half a foot taller. The first game I saw him play was against the Lakers, and he somehow outscored Jabbar. In another fluke, they somehow won the championship that year, as undersized underdogs, just like their leader.

Maybe he gets a bonus for being undersized overachiever, but he’s my favorite player ever, and watching the things he did on the court helped me understand how to watch the game. My admiration for his game probably has a lot to do with why Tim Duncan is my favorite non-Bullet/Wizard player.

[montestewart]

One additional point about Unseld’s MVP: back then, voting was done by the players, so it was his on court opponents who saw him as the runaway MVP.

[nate33]

Wes Sr who won MVP and ROY the same year? I didn’t see him play but seems like he did exert his will on the game.

I dunno. I look at the numbers and I see 13 points and 18 boards on 47% FG%. Even the rebounding wasn't quite as awesome as one would think. He ranked 5th in the league in rebounds per game that year.

It really looks like a fluke, narrative-driven award to me. He didn't even make another All-NBA team (1st or 2nd team) over the rest of his career, in a league with just 14 teams. That's like not even making 4th team All-NBA today (if they had one).

Yes, a little flukey, but some context on the numbers you cite can help. League average FG% was significantly lower than it is today, even without the three-point shot. Unseld’s career shooting percentage was higher than that of two Celtic MVPs, Bill Russell and Dave Cowens, and Red Auerbach was an admirer of Unseld’s game. Eventually, Unseld’s FG% would routinely be among the league leaders.

Regarding Unseld’s rebounding, yes, he finished fifth that year, but the top five were fairly close, Chamberlain leading with 21.1, and Unseld at 18.2. But Unseld played 36.2 mpg, and the others were well over 40 mpg (which was the norm at the time). Jabbar, who came into the league the next year and overshadowed all other centers, was also a great admirer of Unseld, especially his ability at 6’6” to use his size to block out much taller centers and get the rebound. He was routinely among league leaders in rebounding his entire career, finishing third in his second to last year, when he was completely floor bound.

The main reason he was MVP that year was the fact that the Bullets won 36 games the year before, and 57 games to lead the league his rookie year. Based on contemporaneous accounts, he played like a veteran as a rookie, always being in the right place on offense and defense, sort of a Wide Fundamental. His picks, passing, and full court hockey assists vastly improved the team’s offense. Other than scoring, he had a fairly complete game, despite being pretty slow and having bad knees his entire career. It’s also worth mentioning that his teams made the finals four times.

I didn’t see Unseld play until 1978, three years after his last All-Star game, and he was still doing all the “little things” that don’t always show up in the stat sheet, and still routinely facing off against players half a foot taller. The first game I saw him play was against the Lakers, and he somehow outscored Jabbar. In another fluke, they somehow won the championship that year, as undersized underdogs, just like their leader.

Maybe he gets a bonus for being undersized overachiever, but he’s my favorite player ever, and watching the things he did on the court helped me understand how to watch the game. My admiration for his game probably has a lot to do with why Tim Duncan is my favorite non-Bullet/Wizard player.

Wes Unseld was no doubt a very good player whose impact exceeded his box score numbers. Of that I have no doubt. But I still think his MVP was a weird combination of narrative and a total lack of strong candidates that season. He is almost surely the worst MVP of all time. Honestly, Wes was more like a Draymond Green than a Tim Duncan. Yes, his intangibles are off the charts, but his tangibles are completely ordinary. It's a little ridiculous to give MVP to a guy who averages 13 points a game and isn't even an elite rim-protector.

Part of the reason is that there was no top tier talent that year. Wilt got hurt, Russell was an old man, and Kareem didn't join the league until the following season. In hindsight, Willis Reed almost certainly should have gotten it over Wes. The Knicks were only 3 games worse in the regular season, and they went on to beat the Bullets in the playoffs that year. Reed had way better numbers.

I can't stress this enough: Wes never even made an All-NBA team in any year after that rookie season - in a league of just 14 teams. So out of 168 players who make a 12-man roster, he wasn't even among the top 10, or to put it in percentage terms, he wasn't among the top 6% of players in the league. For comparison, in 2007, an All-NBA 2nd team guy like Arenas was in the top 3% of NBA rotation players.

[nate33]

One additional point about Unseld’s MVP: back then, voting was done by the players, so it was his on court opponents who saw him as the runaway MVP.

Interesting. That explains a lot. Players are idiots and are consistently bad at rating other players.

[montestewart]

One additional point about Unseld’s MVP: back then, voting was done by the players, so it was his on court opponents who saw him as the runaway MVP.

Interesting. That explains a lot. Players are idiots and are consistently bad at rating other players.

Yeah, I agree, the weak competition that year and the story book narrative definitely helped his cause. Good analogy with Draymond Green, whose game I appreciate, in much the same way I like Unseld.

Sure, it was a fluke, just like the Bullets championship. I think they might’ve had the worst regular season record of any NBA champion, and they got some breaks in matchups during the playoffs. But as a Bullets fan I’m happy for both wins.

[montestewart]

PS: I think MVP voting was done by the players through about the year 2000 maybe, and it doesn’t seem like they got it wrong that much through the years, with all the usual suspects showing up, Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Bird, Magic, Jordan, etc.

Those same players who were routinely, picking as MVPs the players we think of as the all-time greatest players, that year, for some reason, thought Unseld was the best. maybe that was the year everybody started smoking weed.

[dobrojim]

Interesting convo

Wes - The Bullets made the playoffs every year he was on the team; made the finals 4x in the 70s.
They might have won one more time (vs SEA) but for injuries to Dandridge and Kupchek. And in one of the
Knicks-Bullets matchups Gus Johnson was out which against the Knicks, wasn't helpful.

Elvin - perhaps the most impressive thing about Hayes was how many minutes/game he would play.
There was a season or 2 in which he nearly never came out of the game.

GIl was fun but also frustrating to watch at times. No defense. The other thing about that
era Wizards is lack of playoff success. IIRC, no second round series wins. Dumbass EJ playing
Etan over Haywood didn't help.

[closg00]

The dirty business of sports reporting, I'm not going to take everything here about Woj as 100% truth, but most of it probably is.

Watch on YouTube

[nate33]

The dirty business of sports reporting, I'm not going to take everything here about Woj as 100% truth, but most of it probably is.

Watch on YouTube

This just in. Journalism is a corrupt industry that only coincidentally reports the truth on occasion.

Basically, Woj and Shams are just a little better at the game, but nearly every "journalist" does exactly the same thing: they inject bias in one direction or another in exchange for access. How else are they going to get access?

[closg00]

The dirty business of sports reporting, I'm not going to take everything here about Woj as 100% truth, but most of it probably is.

Watch on YouTube

This just in. Journalism is a corrupt industry that only coincidentally provides the truth on occasion.

Basically, Woj and Shams are just a little better at the game, but nearly every "journalist" does exactly the same thing: they inject bias in one direction or another in exchange for access. How else are they going to get access?

Yes, reader beware and read between the lines. Also, Woj has a $35 million dollar contract

[montestewart]

The dirty business of sports reporting, I'm not going to take everything here about Woj as 100% truth, but most of it probably is.

Watch on YouTube

This just in. Journalism is a corrupt industry that only coincidentally provides the truth on occasion.

Basically, Woj and Shams are just a little better at the game, but nearly every "journalist" does exactly the same thing: they inject bias in one direction or another in exchange for access. How else are they going to get access?

Yes, reader beware and read between the lines. Also, Woj has a $35 million dollar contract

$35 million a year??!!

Man, I need to up my BS game

[dobrojim]

not doubting but am surprised to hear it's that much. But I live in a bubble and don't get out much.

[Zonkerbl]

Does drooling over electric mustangs make me some sort of elitist redneck?

https://www.motor1.com/news/572886/ford-mustang-electric-charge-cars/