Some board changes and our next steps together

[WizTom]

I knew I shouldn't have stepped into this again. Since I'm so stupid, I'm going to do it again. For the last time.

CCJ, I don't think Pine originally meant anything personal. I think he was trying to explain a situation in a way that for some reason was not getting through. That's called a "misunderstanding."

He doesn't need me to defend him and we are hardly what I would call "friends." I don't even know the guy.

And before you get all ad hominem on me, I did not attack you. I quoted your words about Pine. Call them what you want, but I'd call them rather personal and it seems like they may have been filled with emotion. So don't attack me about attacking people. Talk about ad hominem...

The Double Bottom Line is that I think this has been a big misunderstanding.

With some decent comedy mixed in.

And yes, AFM IS a dork.

[WizTom]

And one more thing:

Where is all this righteous indignation during 4 or 5 pages of gay jokes?

CCJ, you were right there in the middle of it, posting movie clips, adding to the insensitive attacks on gays.

If you were gay or your wife died from being gay, the last thing you will accept is a series of attacks about being gay.

Acta est fabula. Finis.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And one more thing:

Where is all this righteous indignation during 4 or 5 pages of gay jokes?

CCJ, you were right there in the middle of it, posting movie clips, adding to the insensitive attacks on gays.

If you were gay or your wife died from being gay, the last thing you will accept is a series of attacks about being gay.

Acta est fabula. Finis.

Come on, man.

Then pine also encouraged sweaty manly movies banter, too.

WizTom, I believe you're searching for ways to disqualify. I won't respond seriously to things that don't seem heartfelt or meaningful.

[Ruzious]

And before you get all ad hominem on me, I did not attack you. I quoted your words about Pine. Call them what you want, but I'd call them rather personal and it seems like they may have been filled with emotion. So don't attack me about attacking people. Talk about ad hominem...

The Double Bottom Line is that I think this has been a big misunderstanding.

With some decent comedy mixed in.

And yes, AFM IS a dork.

Ad hominem, a touch of hock, and some passion for the Wiz, and you have the necessary accoutrements for a Wiz fan. But we've seen what happens when someone adds too much hock.

And yes, I may be even more of a dork than AFM.

[barelyawake]

I just got banned. And the mods here were great and went to bat for me. So, I would like to thank them in doing so. However, this site (excluding the Wiz board) has become ridiculous. Ever since the new rules were passed, the mods have way too much power and the "debate" is limited to throwing out stats. I was told I was "trolling" for suggesting that a basketball player should not merely be judged by stats but also his ability to lead. And while his stats may be worse later in his career, his ability to lead may have grown and thus the later version may be a better basketball player.

I have much respect for this board. But, I have almost no respect for this site anymore. And I believe I'm not the only one in that regard. I agree with Doc that what may have seemed like a good idea at the time to keep order, probably has killed this site. It's just a slow death that global mods don't realize has already occurred, yet.

Taking a break...

[FreeBalling]

I just got banned. And the mods here were great and went to bat for me. So, I would like to thank them in doing so. However, this site (excluding the Wiz board) has become ridiculous. Ever since the new rules were passed, the mods have way too much power and the "debate" is limited to throwing out stats. I was told I was "trolling" for suggesting that a basketball player should not merely be judged by stats but also his ability to lead. And while his stats may be worse later in his career, his ability to lead may have grown and thus the later version may be a better basketball player.

I have much respect for this board. But, I have almost no respect for this site anymore. And I believe I'm not the only one in that regard. I agree with Doc that what may have seemed like a good idea at the time to keep order, probably has killed this site. It's just a slow death that global mods don't realize has already occurred, yet.

Taking a break...

look everyone...someone else who gets it. could greed be the dowrn fall of the RealGM?

Great book here.

[doclinkin]

I just got banned. And the mods here were great and went to bat for me. So, I would like to thank them in doing so. However, this site (excluding the Wiz board) has become ridiculous. Ever since the new rules were passed, the mods have way too much power and the "debate" is limited to throwing out stats. I was told I was "trolling" for suggesting that a basketball player should not merely be judged by stats but also his ability to lead. And while his stats may be worse later in his career, his ability to lead may have grown and thus the later version may be a better basketball player.

I have much respect for this board. But, I have almost no respect for this site anymore. And I believe I'm not the only one in that regard. I agree with Doc that what may have seemed like a good idea at the time to keep order, probably has killed this site. It's just a slow death that global mods don't realize has already occurred, yet.

Taking a break...

tsherkin. oh that guy loves his own opinion and anything else is trolling. No respect for that dude. Except that he can type really really really fast.

[FreeBalling]

And one more thing:

Where is all this righteous indignation during 4 or 5 pages of gay jokes?

CCJ, you were right there in the middle of it, posting movie clips, adding to the insensitive attacks on gays.

If you were gay or your wife died from being gay, the last thing you will accept is a series of attacks about being gay.

Acta est fabula. Finis.

how does a person die from being gay?

[montestewart]

And one more thing:

Where is all this righteous indignation during 4 or 5 pages of gay jokes?

CCJ, you were right there in the middle of it, posting movie clips, adding to the insensitive attacks on gays.

If you were gay or your wife died from being gay, the last thing you will accept is a series of attacks about being gay.

Acta est fabula. Finis.

how does a person die from being gay?

Of shame, when appearing at a gala clad in the same attire as someone else. Things that are "to die for" also contribute. The great deceased Italian fashion designer, Acta Fabula, once said, "I was sad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had ugly shoes." I think that tells us quite a bit. Ugly shoes or not, they go on feet, not hands.

[manifested]

And one more thing:

Where is all this righteous indignation during 4 or 5 pages of gay jokes?

CCJ, you were right there in the middle of it, posting movie clips, adding to the insensitive attacks on gays.

If you were gay or your wife died from being gay, the last thing you will accept is a series of attacks about being gay.

Acta est fabula. Finis.

how does a person die from being gay?

Of shame, when appearing at a gala clad in the same attire as someone else. Things that are "to die for" also contribute. The great deceased Italian fashion designer, Acta Fabula, once said, "I was sad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had ugly shoes." I think that tells us quite a bit. Ugly shoes or not, they go on feet, not hands.

I'm coming to this thread late. I don't post a lot on here. I mostly lurk, but I'm going to take this opportunity to say this: gay jokes aren't cool. Period. Death, when related to the experience of being a gay teen in America (and a lot of other places too, to be sure), is especially not cool. I know people who've been really messed up and a couple who were driven to take their own life as a result of what they've experienced at school and with their families. On a very personal note, I am not gay, but at one time because I accepted others around me who were, I was treated as though I was. So it's possible that maybe I'm a little sensitive on the issue, having seen for a bit what that feels like, both with the jokes and the outright hostility.

I don't think I'm special in that regard and I'm fairly certain we all know people who've faced that. People HAVE died just because they were gay. They were killed or driven mad by despair wrought on them by other people. I kind of feel like it shouldn't even need to be said.

This isn't directed at any one in particular. I know everyone's trying to have a good time, mess around with some jokes during the offseason. I'm not saying we should mod out all the jokes or start handing out bans whenever someone brings it up or makes a joke/comment that can be construed the wrong way. I'm saying, we should be adults enough to know that there are gay basketball fans just like there are black basketball fans, white basketball fans, female basketball fans, asian basketball fans, and all kinds of combinations whatever wherever people are coming from.

Sorry for the length, didn't really want to write this much so i'll sum up here with the TLDR version: If the spirit of this thread is that we want to have a vibrant community of self-regulating fans who want to talk Wizards, then we as a collective should be mindful. It shouldn't have to be about the mods; we should all want the type of space where people of all stripes and experiences feel welcome to chime in without feeling like outsiders. Let's raise the standard.

[nate33]

I just got banned. And the mods here were great and went to bat for me. So, I would like to thank them in doing so. However, this site (excluding the Wiz board) has become ridiculous. Ever since the new rules were passed, the mods have way too much power and the "debate" is limited to throwing out stats. I was told I was "trolling" for suggesting that a basketball player should not merely be judged by stats but also his ability to lead. And while his stats may be worse later in his career, his ability to lead may have grown and thus the later version may be a better basketball player.

I have much respect for this board. But, I have almost no respect for this site anymore. And I believe I'm not the only one in that regard. I agree with Doc that what may have seemed like a good idea at the time to keep order, probably has killed this site. It's just a slow death that global mods don't realize has already occurred, yet.

Taking a break...

I think one of the issues here is that RealGM has taken an extremely aggressive stance in policing the General Board because the General Board got out of control a while back. It was a necessary move and I don't blame them. I think tsherkin took a General Board mindset into the Player Comparison's board when he banned you. We usually let the discussion flow a bit more freely over there.

I don't want to bash tsherkin. He has to deal with a daily onslaught of knuckleheads on the General Board and the Toronto Board so he has understandably gotten a little quick with his trigger finger. I might do the same if I was in his shoes.

Sorry this happened to you. I understand why you're frustrated with the other boards but I hope it doesn't result in you leaving this board.

[montestewart]

how does a person die from being gay?

Of shame, when appearing at a gala clad in the same attire as someone else. Things that are "to die for" also contribute. The great deceased Italian fashion designer, Acta Fabula, once said, "I was sad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had ugly shoes." I think that tells us quite a bit. Ugly shoes or not, they go on feet, not hands.

I'm coming to this thread late. I don't post a lot on here. I mostly lurk, but I'm going to take this opportunity to say this: gay jokes aren't cool. Period. Death, when related to the experience of being a gay teen in America (and a lot of other places too, to be sure), is especially not cool. I know people who've been really messed up and a couple who were driven to take their own life as a result of what they've experienced at school and with their families. On a very personal note, I am not gay, but at one time because I accepted others around me who were, I was treated as though I was. So it's possible that maybe I'm a little sensitive on the issue, having seen for a bit what that feels like, both with the jokes and the outright hostility.

I don't think I'm special in that regard and I'm fairly certain we all know people who've faced that. People HAVE died just because they were gay. They were killed or driven mad by despair wrought on them by other people. I kind of feel like it shouldn't even need to be said.

This isn't directed at any one in particular. I know everyone's trying to have a good time, mess around with some jokes during the offseason. I'm not saying we should mod out all the jokes or start handing out bans whenever someone brings it up or makes a joke/comment that can be construed the wrong way. I'm saying, we should be adults enough to know that there are gay basketball fans just like there are black basketball fans, white basketball fans, female basketball fans, asian basketball fans, and all kinds of combinations whatever wherever people are coming from.

Sorry for the length, didn't really want to write this much so i'll sum up here with the TLDR version: If the spirit of this thread is that we want to have a vibrant community of self-regulating fans who want to talk Wizards, then we as a collective should be mindful. It shouldn't have to be about the mods; we should all want the type of space where people of all stripes and experiences feel welcome to chime in without feeling like outsiders. Let's raise the standard.

I apologize if it was mine that pushed you out of your lurker status. Agree with the characterization of being a gay teen in America, although in so many ways it's not nearly as bad as it was in the 1970s, when teaching tolerance of lesbians and gays was unheard of.

I've probably had more exposure to gays than most straights, since I had an out gay brother (now deceased), have other gay relatives, along with many gay friends, neighbors, colleagues, and in the past gay roommates, gay fellow students going all the way back to high school, have lived in the Dupont/Logan Circle area almost all of my adult life, worked in largely gay bars, restaurants, and bookstores, and, you know, some other stuff. Doesn't give me license to say anything I want, but it informs my view and approach.

I can't say that gay jokes aren't cool, because some of the funniest people I've ever met were gay, and some of their funniest jokes speak directly to the heart of that difference. Honestly, I wouldn't tell a gay joke that I wouldn't say to anyone I know (well, maybe not some of the older people), and my brother and I used to sit around telling some really raunchy jokes, cracking each other up. We even did a comedy performance together at an AIDS benefit. It maybe raised a few eyebrows (my father didn't like it too much) but it generally seemed to make people laugh.

That difference is funny, and much of the iconography of the gay world (designers on Project Runway, the Village People, the Tool movies, etc.) is comedy rich. In the past, most gay jokes (like so many racial jokes or jokes about women) were more concerned with assigning inferior status than with celebrating difference and finding comedy in the juxtaposition. I think that's slowly changing, but I guess high school remains a cruel place (I hated high school and dropped out in 10th grade) so assigning inferiority to difference is perhaps still the rule there.

One thing to bear in mind regarding a gay discussion on a sports discussion board is the constant homoerotic subtext to sports and discussions regarding sports. Once you see it, it's difficult to not see it. The discussion, whether analytical or blindly gung ho, is predominantly implicitly heterosexual, yet there is a constant tension between the discussion and that which is being discussed, the largely physical accomplishments of generally fit and well formed young men. Add to that the endless double entendres littering the sports jargon lexicon. Honestly, I've been cracking up over that irony since I was a teenager. Maybe I just never grew up.

Sorry for the lengthy response. I dislike so-called "political correctness" because it doesn't seem to lead to better communication. Still, I don't like using broadly hurtful language, and I obviously bothered you. Again, my apologies. I can't swear it won't happen again (and I still think Acta Fabula is a great designer name), but your post at least made me give it some thought. Stop lurking so much. Join the conversation.

[Jaekast]

I have a voice. I have an opinion. #iamhands11 #therevolutionisreal #fightthesystem #pineapplesareacidic

[manifested]

I can't say that gay jokes aren't cool, because some of the funniest people I've ever met were gay, and some of their funniest jokes speak directly to the heart of that difference. Honestly, I wouldn't tell a gay joke that I wouldn't say to anyone I know

...
That difference is funny, and much of the iconography of the gay world (designers on Project Runway, the Village People, the Tool movies, etc.) is comedy rich. In the past, most gay jokes (like so many racial jokes or jokes about women) were more concerned with assigning inferior status than with celebrating difference and finding comedy in the juxtaposition. I think that's slowly changing, but I guess high school remains a cruel place (I hated high school and dropped out in 10th grade) so assigning inferiority to difference is perhaps still the rule there.

One thing to bear in mind regarding a gay discussion on a sports discussion board is the constant homoerotic subtext to sports and discussions regarding sports. Once you see it, it's difficult to not see it. The discussion, whether analytical or blindly gung ho, is predominantly implicitly heterosexual, yet there is a constant tension between the discussion and that which is being discussed, the largely physical accomplishments of generally fit and well formed young men. Add to that the endless double entendres littering the sports jargon lexicon. Honestly, I've been cracking up over that irony since I was a teenager. Maybe I just never grew up.

Thanks for the response monte. It wasn't really your comment as much as the one you were responding to. I don't think anything was meant by either of the posts. But the exchange got to me a bit, and given that, this seemed like an opportunity to express something I think about while visiting a lot of sports forums.

High school was awhile ago for me (I'm in my 30s), and over the years a lot's changed for sure. For the most part, it's a matter of how people approach it. That's difficult because it can't be legislated with rules; it has to be talked about. That gray area is a tricky place that shouldn't be avoided. It's just, sometimes, it's easy for posters to be cavalier about it on the internet when they assume no one (like that) is listening.

The parts quoted above I really agree with. It's why I'm not about shutting conversation down or handing out board punishments unless someone goes way out of line. I don't want to take anything away because in general, I really enjoy this board. It's one of the best around for high quality hoops talk. More throwing out some food for thought.

[barelyawake]

I will say one thing, besides thanks Nate. I am getting awfully sick of the culture we are developing of censoring one another. Making a joke about our differences does not automatically deem one a bigot or in need of censorship. I am a staunch supporter of gay rights; am a diehard liberal and "have many gay friends." And we make fun of each other constantly. I absolutely agree with Seinfeld that my "liberal" friends, and I say liberal in quotes because "liberal" is supposed to mean accepting, but has come to mean policing of anything comedic, are too easy to offend these days. Exactly nothing in this thread was anti-gay at all.

Btw, we collectively as a culture still have tons of things we accept as avenues of comedy that people commit suicide over every day. Where's the outrage over stupid jokes? Where's the outrage over small dick jokes? Where's the outrage over fat jokes? Where's the outrage over southern accents or a million other things? Yes, it is wrong to shame anyone. It happens. And it's wrong in all forms, not just the cause celeb of the day. But, joking about differences isn't a slight. It's a joke about the human condition.

People need to lighten the hell up. And we absolutely have to stop with the policing of speech. As someone said, "There is no need for big brother. We have become big brother."

Needed to be be said, back on break...

[crackhed]

I will say one thing, besides thanks Nate. I am getting awfully sick of the culture we are developing of censoring one another. Making a joke about our differences does not automatically deem one a bigot or in need of censorship. I am a staunch supporter of gay rights; am a diehard liberal and "have many gay friends." And we make fun of each other constantly. I absolutely agree with Seinfeld that my "liberal" friends, and I say liberal in quotes because "liberal" is supposed to mean accepting, but has come to mean policing of anything comedic, are too easy to offend these days. Exactly nothing in this thread was anti-gay at all.

Btw, we collectively as a culture still have tons of things we accept as avenues of comedy that people commit suicide over every day. Where's the outrage over stupid jokes? Where's the outrage over small dick jokes? Where's the outrage over fat jokes? Where's the outrage over southern accents or a million other things? Yes, it is wrong to shame anyone. It happens. And it's wrong in all forms, not just the cause celeb of the day. But, joking about differences isn't a slight. It's a joke about the human condition.

People need to lighten the hell up. And we absolutely have to stop with the policing of speech. As someone said, "There is no need for big brother. We have become big brother."

Needed to be be said, back on break...

excellent post. while political correctness has been successfully wielded by some in the political spectrum, it's a blood thirsty beast that doesn't care who it eats 4 lunch. i'd say it's only a matter of time b4 it turns on those who wield it

[payitforward]

And before you get all ad hominem on me, I did not attack you. I quoted your words about Pine. Call them what you want, but I'd call them rather personal and it seems like they may have been filled with emotion. So don't attack me about attacking people. Talk about ad hominem...

The Double Bottom Line is that I think this has been a big misunderstanding.

With some decent comedy mixed in.

And yes, AFM IS a dork.

Ad hominem, a touch of hock, and some passion for the Wiz, and you have the necessary accoutrements for a Wiz fan. But we've seen what happens when someone adds too much hock.

And yes, I may be even more of a dork than AFM.

No way. You are not nearly the dork AFM is. I don't think you even work at it.

[closg00]

RealGm has "Jumped the Shark" For those youngins, here is the cultural reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_sharkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

[Ed Wood]

I certainly can't claim that hands didn't manage to bug the **** out of me sometimes, and not just an occasional sometime given his prolix tendencies, but he was every bit a part of the natural flora of the board to me at this point, so a ban? Yeah, that's not what I would have wanted. I can absolutely say that I've never had anything approaching an acrimonious interaction with a mod on this board, nor felt constrained at all in my posting. While I'm also just the most milquetoast **** there is, I don't think this is the group to hatch some sort of dramatic, unconsidered, draconian maneuver; I'm sure this was well considered before it was enacted.

But still, I mean, I kind of love, maybe loved this place because it's been allowed to be the Wild West just a little, in addition to a haunt for thoughtful posts. You handled your own business, and the other guy would have to take his licks because nobody steps to this, but then we were done and just wasting time the same way again. Now hands was as dauntless as they come, so there wasn't a caliber you could be packing to bring him down, but you could always just say "hey, shut up already," and yeah probably he wouldn't but occasionally he'd manage a little contrition and he seemed to forget it as fast as anyone, so we all rolled along.

So no revisionist history, dude was just the most tremendous ****, absolutely he was. I am too though you know? I mean I haven't had a really worthwhile thing to say about the game of basketball basically ever, can't imagine what that would be like. I can't pretend I read all the way through a very large fraction of his posts, but I never wanted them gone. I'm not happy about this, not at all happy to see him go.

[payitforward]

I have really loved the huge contradiction at the heart of this thread:

1) Pretty much everybody agrees that Hands' posts were annoying and showed little if any basketball insight, and
2) Pretty much everybody misses him and would kind of like to have him back (ok there are some who hold out on this...).

Strange. I hope Hands is reading the thread and appreciates the support -- if so, I'm sure he's mentally editing out the opinions on his posts and bball knowledge.