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Political Roundtable Part XXXII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1461 » by dckingsfan » Thu Mar 7, 2024 8:45 pm

popper wrote:I understand your position dck. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, a case can be made along the lines you have described. If I was making the decision, I would have given the bank shareholders a massive haircut before bailout dollars flowed (my memory is that that did not happen).

So we're left with what exactly? What industries and individuals qualify for bailouts. So far it's the banking, auto manufacturing and a subsection of student borrowers' (probably a few others I'm forgetting). I'm all for a government that occasionally makes investments (the interstate highway system for example) but I'd prefer the criteria for bailouts to be openly debated and mapped out in advance. That won't happen of course because ultimately it's a political decision, which brings me back to my earlier point (politicians make decisions effecting future generations of taxpayers that extend far beyond their political longevity (IOW - they are unaccountable in many instances). I understand for some very long term projects it's unavoidable.

However I'll be the first to admit that the government will have to assist if we're going to bring back our domestic pharmaceutical manufacturing capability. I think they're already assisting with domestic chip manufacturing and I believe modular small scale nuclear power demonstration projects as well. I support all three.

The problem with this is when you do a complete discussion of all possibilities - nothing gets done. This (like Covid) was an emergency situation where there were no perfect answers (except with 20/20 hindsight).

The point is that the remedies worked and cost us little if anything. But that is what we focus on.

That vs. the forever wars and tax cuts - those were/are extremely expensive.

So, what we have here is focusing on the tertiary and ignoring the primary drivers of our problems.

BTW, the Highway Trust Fund is no longer viable or efficient. Read the book, "confessions of a recovering engineer" if you want to understand the nuance. You can also look at the farm bill and why it is no longer viable. Neither of those constitute investment. Then look at the IRA and parts of the infrastructure bill to see where there is actual investment.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1462 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Mar 7, 2024 8:55 pm

Our military is one big rolling bailout. You should include that on your list, and we are spending about 100 times as much on them as we spent on banking, auto, student loans combined, *yearly*
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1463 » by pancakes3 » Thu Mar 7, 2024 10:41 pm

military is also a form of welfare with all the benefits that vets get.

this is not meant to be derogatory but for some people that's a dirty word. it's definitely a social safety net for people who don't attend college right after HS.

i see a lot of trumpers saying "why are we giving foreign when but we can't take care of our vets/citizens/etc" and they're right. but somehow it's the dems that are keeping the government from taking care of its vets and citizens? and now that the army is getting diverse (race, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc) people who back our troops are in turn backing off their support, saying the military is getting too woke. Same military it's always been, keeping our shores safe, but now it's a problem because it's not 90% white hetero men.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1464 » by 2Fluffy4U » Fri Mar 8, 2024 10:14 am

As an outsider observing geopolitical trends, living in era of instant digital, global, and AI world - I believe things are going to get real bad before they get better.
Patriotism, racism, nationalism and the conpect of Nations/Peoples are all being re-defined in this post-post modernism times and the common ground is that a world of Facts no longer exists, but instead it is governed by Truth (i.e 'be true to yourself and what you believe in). Which is subjective and can be promoted and established by quantity and not quality/facts.
The number of retweets or shares IS the thing. The content will become factual based soley on quantity. Scary IMO.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1465 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Mar 8, 2024 2:24 pm

2Fluffy4U wrote:As an outsider observing geopolitical trends, living in era of instant digital, global, and AI world - I believe things are going to get real bad before they get better.
Patriotism, racism, nationalism and the conpect of Nations/Peoples are all being re-defined in this post-post modernism times and the common ground is that a world of Facts no longer exists, but instead it is governed by Truth (i.e 'be true to yourself and what you believe in). Which is subjective and can be promoted and established by quantity and not quality/facts.
The number of retweets or shares IS the thing. The content will become factual based soley on quantity. Scary IMO.


So, that one Black Mirror episode, but unironically.

The whole AI thing, training technology to mimic human behavior, seems like an extremely bad idea to me. All the scifi in the past fifty years assumed robots and AI would be rational, and you could break them by forcing them to lie. Instead we're creating something that's even crazier than we are. And worse liars.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1466 » by popper » Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:35 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1467 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:48 am



Popper, why are you reading articles that start "The identity obsessed dogma..." That should be an immediate sign to stop reading. This is a biased source pushing right wing talking parts and is guaranteed to be argued in bad faith with 90% emotional arguments sprinkled in with a few cherry picked, out of context facts. Why not save us the energy and pick apart the weaknesses, fallacies, and outright lies in this article yourself?

Obviously Intel is trying to extort more subsidies out of Ohio and the Fed and these right wing patsies are out on the intertubes doing the dirty work of spreading intel's lies. Why fall for it? You're a smart guy. This is a choice you've made that honestly I don't understand.

You spend five hours a day on the internet "doing your own research" and THIS is the kind of reputable article you think deserves to be shared and nodded over sagely? Have you ever heard the phrase "don't work harder, work smarter"? Maybe less time spent searching for articles that confirm your own bias and more time, like I said earlier, spending time with your family or something. No snark, this stuff is bad for your mental health.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1468 » by popper » Mon Mar 11, 2024 1:44 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:


Popper, why are you reading articles that start "The identity obsessed dogma..." That should be an immediate sign to stop reading. This is a biased source pushing right wing talking parts and is guaranteed to be argued in bad faith with 90% emotional arguments sprinkled in with a few cherry picked, out of context facts. Why not save us the energy and pick apart the weaknesses, fallacies, and outright lies in this article yourself?

Obviously Intel is trying to extort more subsidies out of Ohio and the Fed and these right wing patsies are out on the intertubes doing the dirty work of spreading intel's lies. Why fall for it? You're a smart guy. This is a choice you've made that honestly I don't understand.

You spend five hours a day on the internet "doing your own research" and THIS is the kind of reputable article you think deserves to be shared and nodded over sagely? Have you ever heard the phrase "don't work harder, work smarter"? Maybe less time spent searching for articles that confirm your own bias and more time, like I said earlier, spending time with your family or something. No snark, this stuff is bad for your mental health.


I don't know Zonk. Feel free to strip out the extraneous political commentary and the substance of the DEI requirements is there for you or anyone else to judge. This information is available in other places as well, including the NYT's.

"...The program also includes some ambitious and unusual requirements aimed at benefiting the people who will staff semiconductor facilities.

For one, the department will require companies seeking awards of $150 million or more to guarantee affordable, high-quality childcare for plant construction workers and operators. This could include building company childcare centers near construction sites or new plants, paying local childcare providers to add capacity at an affordable cost or directly subsidizing workers’ care costs. Ms. Raimondo has said childcare will draw more people into the work force, when many businesses are struggling in a tight labor market.

Applicants are also required to detail their engagement with labor unions, schools and work force education programs, with preference given to projects that benefit communities and workers.

Other provisions will encourage companies, universities and other parties to offer more training for workers, both in advanced sciences and in skills like welding. The department said it would give preference to projects for which state and local governments were providing incentives with “spillover” benefits for communities, like work force training, education investment or infrastructure construction.

This is part of the Biden administration’s “worker-centered” approach to economic policy, which seeks to use the might of the federal government to benefit workers. But some critics say it could put the program’s goal of building the most advanced semiconductor factories at risk, if it adds excessive costs to new projects.
"

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/business/economy/chips-act-childcare.html
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1469 » by pancakes3 » Mon Mar 11, 2024 1:49 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:


Popper, why are you reading articles that start "The identity obsessed dogma..." That should be an immediate sign to stop reading. This is a biased source pushing right wing talking parts and is guaranteed to be argued in bad faith with 90% emotional arguments sprinkled in with a few cherry picked, out of context facts. Why not save us the energy and pick apart the weaknesses, fallacies, and outright lies in this article yourself?

Obviously Intel is trying to extort more subsidies out of Ohio and the Fed and these right wing patsies are out on the intertubes doing the dirty work of spreading intel's lies. Why fall for it? You're a smart guy. This is a choice you've made that honestly I don't understand.

You spend five hours a day on the internet "doing your own research" and THIS is the kind of reputable article you think deserves to be shared and nodded over sagely? Have you ever heard the phrase "don't work harder, work smarter"? Maybe less time spent searching for articles that confirm your own bias and more time, like I said earlier, spending time with your family or something. No snark, this stuff is bad for your mental health.


- The article is written by 2 guys who work at Strive, Vivek Ramaswamy's political stunt of creating a hedge fund that, by their own admission: "[Strive] was created in January 2022 to solve a problem that had emerged in the United States over the prior decade: large financial institutions, including the biggest asset managers, were using their clients' money to advance social, cultural, and political agendas in corporate America's boardrooms. Asset managers and for-profit corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize value, and that duty had been neglected."

This is... not true. In fact, it's completely backwards. Clients were demanding financial products and management that advance social causes like DEI, environmental sustainability, fair trade, human rights, etc. and asset managers were forced to provide those products and services. Asset managers have a fiduciary duty to do as their clients instruct; he conflates the corporate fiduciary duty to maximize value with those of asset managers, something that co-author Chris Nicholson, as a Yale JD, absolutely knows.

- 19 sections on diversity and inclusion! There's like 400 sections in the act. There are like, 22 sections devoted to use of tech for NASA/space exploration. DEI is a footnote of the CHIPS act, and these bozos are acting like it's the driving factor. And I'm not even going to get into the premise of why DEI is good - this post is just me reacting, as someone who thinks DEI is a bit overblown, to this dud of an article.

- The article cites the DEI initiatives such as creating a diversity officer at the NSF, Dept. of Commerce guidance to work with minority-owned businesses, and other factors that are not strings attached to subsidy funding as reasons that Intel and TMSC are balking at taking subsidies, which... why would Intel refuse billions in subsidies because the NSF is hiring a chief diversity officer? It's not a requirement for Intel (even though Intel already has this position, which it created on its own, and predates the legislation).

- The article cites backlash against TMSC for flying in Taiwanese employees instead of hiring locals, and champions TMSC - this entirely misses the point of the subsidies. The act isn't just to have TMSC to have a physical footprint in the US, it's to CREATE JOBS. I honestly don't understand what point the writers think they're making, it's baffling.

- The article then cites TMSC building plants around the world, as some sort of referendum on the US without providing any context as to (a) the amount of subsidies and benefits those other countries are providing; (b) the logistical benefits of having an Asian, European, and American plant, especially with the supply chain lessons learned over the pandemic; or (c) cost of labor in Poland, Germany, Japan, Israel, and the US.

- Stir all the handwavy bullspit and the writer hits us with "In short, the world’s best chipmakers are tired of being pawns in the CHIPS Act’s political games." Like, what? They haven't offered a single piece of concrete evidence of this, and even the circumstantial evidence provided is... nonsensical.

- At the end, we get to some sort of crystallized thought, where it's not just a plain assertion but rather an assertion followed up by an articulated reason: "The CHIPS Act’s current identity as a jobs program for favored minorities means companies are forced to recruit heavily from every population except white and Asian men already trained in the field. It’s like fishing in all the places you aren’t getting bites."

The good thing is that they finally say what they're trying to say. Unfortunately, it's racist bullspit. The DEI requirements to promote diversity is more like fishing in places where you weren't fishing before. The implication that it's fishing where nobody's getting bites is that black and hispanic people either don't want the jobs, or aren't trained for the jobs - but they also cry foul over the CHIPS act providing training for those jobs, so what am I supposed to conclude here? That blacks and hispanics are not smart enough, and will never be smart enough, so we should quit trying? Like, for whatever reason, blacks and hispanics are underrepresented in the industry. Let's try to fix that. I don't know what's so objectionable about that? It seems to be coming from white and asians feeling that they're being disadvantaged, but really it's that whites and asians have been over-advantaged, and a push towards equality, is only disadvantaging on a relative scale?

- This brings me to my [least] favorite line in the article. Libertarians have this compelling need to oversimplify everything to maximize a single metric, and ignore all other metrics. The US HAS to be the absolute best, and do so in the most efficient manner, even if that means trampling over the civil liberties of certain people. We have to make the most chips for the least amount of money, and disregard any deviation from that path, including things like DEI that attempts to correct a separate inefficiency in the socioeconomic fabric of our society. No time and no money for that. And they justify this by stifling the public under a pillow of fear.

This is the stuff declining empires are made of. As America pursues national security by building a diverse workforce, China does it by building warships.


It's just... ::chefs kiss:: no notes. What an incredible blend of eyerolling HS debate-level rhetoric, strawmen, factual error, jingoism, xenophobia; it's really like they lifted this straight from Reddit, except on Reddit, there would be at least 200 comments defending US Naval superiority.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1470 » by popper » Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:03 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:


Popper, why are you reading articles that start "The identity obsessed dogma..." That should be an immediate sign to stop reading. This is a biased source pushing right wing talking parts and is guaranteed to be argued in bad faith with 90% emotional arguments sprinkled in with a few cherry picked, out of context facts. Why not save us the energy and pick apart the weaknesses, fallacies, and outright lies in this article yourself?

Obviously Intel is trying to extort more subsidies out of Ohio and the Fed and these right wing patsies are out on the intertubes doing the dirty work of spreading intel's lies. Why fall for it? You're a smart guy. This is a choice you've made that honestly I don't understand.

You spend five hours a day on the internet "doing your own research" and THIS is the kind of reputable article you think deserves to be shared and nodded over sagely? Have you ever heard the phrase "don't work harder, work smarter"? Maybe less time spent searching for articles that confirm your own bias and more time, like I said earlier, spending time with your family or something. No snark, this stuff is bad for your mental health.


- The article is written by 2 guys who work at Strive, Vivek Ramaswamy's political stunt of creating a hedge fund that, by their own admission: "[Strive] was created in January 2022 to solve a problem that had emerged in the United States over the prior decade: large financial institutions, including the biggest asset managers, were using their clients' money to advance social, cultural, and political agendas in corporate America's boardrooms. Asset managers and for-profit corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize value, and that duty had been neglected."

This is... not true. In fact, it's completely backwards. Clients were demanding financial products and management that advance social causes like DEI, environmental sustainability, fair trade, human rights, etc. and asset managers were forced to provide those products and services. Asset managers have a fiduciary duty to do as their clients instruct; he conflates the corporate fiduciary duty to maximize value with those of asset managers, something that co-author Chris Nicholson, as a Yale JD, absolutely knows.

- 19 sections on diversity and inclusion! There's like 400 sections in the act. There are like, 22 sections devoted to use of tech for NASA/space exploration. DEI is a footnote of the CHIPS act, and these bozos are acting like it's the driving factor. And I'm not even going to get into the premise of why DEI is good - this post is just me reacting, as someone who thinks DEI is a bit overblown, to this dud of an article.

- The article cites the DEI initiatives such as creating a diversity officer at the NSF, Dept. of Commerce guidance to work with minority-owned businesses, and other factors that are not strings attached to subsidy funding as reasons that Intel and TMSC are balking at taking subsidies, which... why would Intel refuse billions in subsidies because the NSF is hiring a chief diversity officer? It's not a requirement for Intel (even though Intel already has this position, which it created on its own, and predates the legislation).

- The article cites backlash against TMSC for flying in Taiwanese employees instead of hiring locals, and champions TMSC - this entirely misses the point of the subsidies. The act isn't just to have TMSC to have a physical footprint in the US, it's to CREATE JOBS. I honestly don't understand what point the writers think they're making, it's baffling.

- The article then cites TMSC building plants around the world, as some sort of referendum on the US without providing any context as to (a) the amount of subsidies and benefits those other countries are providing; (b) the logistical benefits of having an Asian, European, and American plant, especially with the supply chain lessons learned over the pandemic; or (c) cost of labor in Poland, Germany, Japan, Israel, and the US.

- Stir all the handwavy bullspit and the writer hits us with "In short, the world’s best chipmakers are tired of being pawns in the CHIPS Act’s political games." Like, what? They haven't offered a single piece of concrete evidence of this, and even the circumstantial evidence provided is... nonsensical.

- At the end, we get to some sort of crystallized thought, where it's not just a plain assertion but rather an assertion followed up by an articulated reason: "The CHIPS Act’s current identity as a jobs program for favored minorities means companies are forced to recruit heavily from every population except white and Asian men already trained in the field. It’s like fishing in all the places you aren’t getting bites."

The good thing is that they finally say what they're trying to say. Unfortunately, it's racist bullspit. The DEI requirements to promote diversity is more like fishing in places where you weren't fishing before. The implication that it's fishing where nobody's getting bites is that black and hispanic people either don't want the jobs, or aren't trained for the jobs - but they also cry foul over the CHIPS act providing training for those jobs, so what am I supposed to conclude here? That blacks and hispanics are not smart enough, and will never be smart enough, so we should quit trying? Like, for whatever reason, blacks and hispanics are underrepresented in the industry. Let's try to fix that. I don't know what's so objectionable about that? It seems to be coming from white and asians feeling that they're being disadvantaged, but really it's that whites and asians have been over-advantaged, and a push towards equality, is only disadvantaging on a relative scale?

- This brings me to my [least] favorite line in the article. Libertarians have this compelling need to oversimplify everything to maximize a single metric, and ignore all other metrics. The US HAS to be the absolute best, and do so in the most efficient manner, even if that means trampling over the civil liberties of certain people. We have to make the most chips for the least amount of money, and disregard any deviation from that path, including things like DEI that attempts to correct a separate inefficiency in the socioeconomic fabric of our society. No time and no money for that. And they justify this by stifling the public under a pillow of fear.

This is the stuff declining empires are made of. As America pursues national security by building a diverse workforce, China does it by building warships.


It's just... ::chefs kiss:: no notes. What an incredible blend of eyerolling HS debate-level rhetoric, strawmen, factual error, jingoism, xenophobia; it's really like they lifted this straight from Reddit, except on Reddit, there would be at least 200 comments defending US Naval superiority.


Keep in my mind that this is a word-limited opinion piece and not a 300 page dissertation (so of course it's going to lack a robust analysis of all relevant information.) When I strip out the political commentary, I understand the opinion to convey the following; DEI requirements as part of the CHIP ACT implementation are giving pause to, and constraining manufacturers from fully embracing expansion under the act. I believe that's their opinion (at least that's the way I read it.) Will their opinion/position be born out in the reality that follows? We shall see. If I'm still vertical 6 months or a year from now, and more information is available, I'll follow up and we can make a judgement.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1471 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:20 pm

I'm not going to read this article. Once you strip out the right wing propaganda there is nothing left. Happy to engage with you on the issue of building policy priorities into public private partnerships and similar deals, if you can find an article about DEI that is not written by a microsoft lobbyist or a right wing patsy (or in this case, apparently both). Absolutely Biden should be demanding that vulnerable populations not be excluded from the economic opportunities that HE IS PAYING FOR (ok he's not *literally* paying for it but you catch my meaning), if that is his policy. That is how partnerships between the private sector and the government should work.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1472 » by doclinkin » Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:26 pm

Reading the NYT article cited. I fail to see how this is even an issue. In a tight labor market the Govt is incentivizing programs that provide child care for workers. Provide training for local workers. And encourage investing in the community, infrastructure, etc.

If you don't want a free $150 million of taxpayer dollars you can go elsewhere. But if you plan to build in the US, then invest in your community to make it sustainable.

If we are citing China as the opposition, hell, they are communist, they already provide government subsidized everything. Are we crying somehow that we don't invest in Defense? We spend more on the military than anyone, with more dollars invested than the next 15 countries combined.

Seems to me this is a way to get market forces to try to provide what taxpayers tend to spend on: roads, education, family care. Here we give a very large coupon to an industry and simply ask them to be good citizens of the communities they are building in, so that the benefits are circular and they are less likely to hike up and move elsewhere once they get started.

Yes, they should also make damn good product. That part is on them. Doesn't seem like it should be too hard to do, the extra money should help. Not sure what the whining is about.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1473 » by pancakes3 » Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:34 pm

popper wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Popper, why are you reading articles that start "The identity obsessed dogma..." That should be an immediate sign to stop reading. This is a biased source pushing right wing talking parts and is guaranteed to be argued in bad faith with 90% emotional arguments sprinkled in with a few cherry picked, out of context facts. Why not save us the energy and pick apart the weaknesses, fallacies, and outright lies in this article yourself?

Obviously Intel is trying to extort more subsidies out of Ohio and the Fed and these right wing patsies are out on the intertubes doing the dirty work of spreading intel's lies. Why fall for it? You're a smart guy. This is a choice you've made that honestly I don't understand.

You spend five hours a day on the internet "doing your own research" and THIS is the kind of reputable article you think deserves to be shared and nodded over sagely? Have you ever heard the phrase "don't work harder, work smarter"? Maybe less time spent searching for articles that confirm your own bias and more time, like I said earlier, spending time with your family or something. No snark, this stuff is bad for your mental health.


- The article is written by 2 guys who work at Strive, Vivek Ramaswamy's political stunt of creating a hedge fund that, by their own admission: "[Strive] was created in January 2022 to solve a problem that had emerged in the United States over the prior decade: large financial institutions, including the biggest asset managers, were using their clients' money to advance social, cultural, and political agendas in corporate America's boardrooms. Asset managers and for-profit corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize value, and that duty had been neglected."

This is... not true. In fact, it's completely backwards. Clients were demanding financial products and management that advance social causes like DEI, environmental sustainability, fair trade, human rights, etc. and asset managers were forced to provide those products and services. Asset managers have a fiduciary duty to do as their clients instruct; he conflates the corporate fiduciary duty to maximize value with those of asset managers, something that co-author Chris Nicholson, as a Yale JD, absolutely knows.

- 19 sections on diversity and inclusion! There's like 400 sections in the act. There are like, 22 sections devoted to use of tech for NASA/space exploration. DEI is a footnote of the CHIPS act, and these bozos are acting like it's the driving factor. And I'm not even going to get into the premise of why DEI is good - this post is just me reacting, as someone who thinks DEI is a bit overblown, to this dud of an article.

- The article cites the DEI initiatives such as creating a diversity officer at the NSF, Dept. of Commerce guidance to work with minority-owned businesses, and other factors that are not strings attached to subsidy funding as reasons that Intel and TMSC are balking at taking subsidies, which... why would Intel refuse billions in subsidies because the NSF is hiring a chief diversity officer? It's not a requirement for Intel (even though Intel already has this position, which it created on its own, and predates the legislation).

- The article cites backlash against TMSC for flying in Taiwanese employees instead of hiring locals, and champions TMSC - this entirely misses the point of the subsidies. The act isn't just to have TMSC to have a physical footprint in the US, it's to CREATE JOBS. I honestly don't understand what point the writers think they're making, it's baffling.

- The article then cites TMSC building plants around the world, as some sort of referendum on the US without providing any context as to (a) the amount of subsidies and benefits those other countries are providing; (b) the logistical benefits of having an Asian, European, and American plant, especially with the supply chain lessons learned over the pandemic; or (c) cost of labor in Poland, Germany, Japan, Israel, and the US.

- Stir all the handwavy bullspit and the writer hits us with "In short, the world’s best chipmakers are tired of being pawns in the CHIPS Act’s political games." Like, what? They haven't offered a single piece of concrete evidence of this, and even the circumstantial evidence provided is... nonsensical.

- At the end, we get to some sort of crystallized thought, where it's not just a plain assertion but rather an assertion followed up by an articulated reason: "The CHIPS Act’s current identity as a jobs program for favored minorities means companies are forced to recruit heavily from every population except white and Asian men already trained in the field. It’s like fishing in all the places you aren’t getting bites."

The good thing is that they finally say what they're trying to say. Unfortunately, it's racist bullspit. The DEI requirements to promote diversity is more like fishing in places where you weren't fishing before. The implication that it's fishing where nobody's getting bites is that black and hispanic people either don't want the jobs, or aren't trained for the jobs - but they also cry foul over the CHIPS act providing training for those jobs, so what am I supposed to conclude here? That blacks and hispanics are not smart enough, and will never be smart enough, so we should quit trying? Like, for whatever reason, blacks and hispanics are underrepresented in the industry. Let's try to fix that. I don't know what's so objectionable about that? It seems to be coming from white and asians feeling that they're being disadvantaged, but really it's that whites and asians have been over-advantaged, and a push towards equality, is only disadvantaging on a relative scale?

- This brings me to my [least] favorite line in the article. Libertarians have this compelling need to oversimplify everything to maximize a single metric, and ignore all other metrics. The US HAS to be the absolute best, and do so in the most efficient manner, even if that means trampling over the civil liberties of certain people. We have to make the most chips for the least amount of money, and disregard any deviation from that path, including things like DEI that attempts to correct a separate inefficiency in the socioeconomic fabric of our society. No time and no money for that. And they justify this by stifling the public under a pillow of fear.

This is the stuff declining empires are made of. As America pursues national security by building a diverse workforce, China does it by building warships.


It's just... ::chefs kiss:: no notes. What an incredible blend of eyerolling HS debate-level rhetoric, strawmen, factual error, jingoism, xenophobia; it's really like they lifted this straight from Reddit, except on Reddit, there would be at least 200 comments defending US Naval superiority.


Keep in my mind that this is a word-limited opinion piece and not a 300 page dissertation (so of course it's going to lack a robust analysis of all relevant information.) When I strip out the political commentary, I understand the opinion to convey the following; DEI requirements as part of the CHIP ACT implementation are giving pause to, and constraining manufacturers from fully embracing expansion under the act. I believe that's their opinion (at least that's the way I read it.) Will their opinion/position be born out in the reality that follows? We shall see. If I'm still vertical 6 months or a year from now, and more information is available, I'll follow up and we can make a judgement.


idk how vertical you are, your first thought on the issue was a single word: "Depressing."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1474 » by popper » Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:46 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
popper wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
- The article is written by 2 guys who work at Strive, Vivek Ramaswamy's political stunt of creating a hedge fund that, by their own admission: "[Strive] was created in January 2022 to solve a problem that had emerged in the United States over the prior decade: large financial institutions, including the biggest asset managers, were using their clients' money to advance social, cultural, and political agendas in corporate America's boardrooms. Asset managers and for-profit corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize value, and that duty had been neglected."

This is... not true. In fact, it's completely backwards. Clients were demanding financial products and management that advance social causes like DEI, environmental sustainability, fair trade, human rights, etc. and asset managers were forced to provide those products and services. Asset managers have a fiduciary duty to do as their clients instruct; he conflates the corporate fiduciary duty to maximize value with those of asset managers, something that co-author Chris Nicholson, as a Yale JD, absolutely knows.

- 19 sections on diversity and inclusion! There's like 400 sections in the act. There are like, 22 sections devoted to use of tech for NASA/space exploration. DEI is a footnote of the CHIPS act, and these bozos are acting like it's the driving factor. And I'm not even going to get into the premise of why DEI is good - this post is just me reacting, as someone who thinks DEI is a bit overblown, to this dud of an article.

- The article cites the DEI initiatives such as creating a diversity officer at the NSF, Dept. of Commerce guidance to work with minority-owned businesses, and other factors that are not strings attached to subsidy funding as reasons that Intel and TMSC are balking at taking subsidies, which... why would Intel refuse billions in subsidies because the NSF is hiring a chief diversity officer? It's not a requirement for Intel (even though Intel already has this position, which it created on its own, and predates the legislation).

- The article cites backlash against TMSC for flying in Taiwanese employees instead of hiring locals, and champions TMSC - this entirely misses the point of the subsidies. The act isn't just to have TMSC to have a physical footprint in the US, it's to CREATE JOBS. I honestly don't understand what point the writers think they're making, it's baffling.

- The article then cites TMSC building plants around the world, as some sort of referendum on the US without providing any context as to (a) the amount of subsidies and benefits those other countries are providing; (b) the logistical benefits of having an Asian, European, and American plant, especially with the supply chain lessons learned over the pandemic; or (c) cost of labor in Poland, Germany, Japan, Israel, and the US.

- Stir all the handwavy bullspit and the writer hits us with "In short, the world’s best chipmakers are tired of being pawns in the CHIPS Act’s political games." Like, what? They haven't offered a single piece of concrete evidence of this, and even the circumstantial evidence provided is... nonsensical.

- At the end, we get to some sort of crystallized thought, where it's not just a plain assertion but rather an assertion followed up by an articulated reason: "The CHIPS Act’s current identity as a jobs program for favored minorities means companies are forced to recruit heavily from every population except white and Asian men already trained in the field. It’s like fishing in all the places you aren’t getting bites."

The good thing is that they finally say what they're trying to say. Unfortunately, it's racist bullspit. The DEI requirements to promote diversity is more like fishing in places where you weren't fishing before. The implication that it's fishing where nobody's getting bites is that black and hispanic people either don't want the jobs, or aren't trained for the jobs - but they also cry foul over the CHIPS act providing training for those jobs, so what am I supposed to conclude here? That blacks and hispanics are not smart enough, and will never be smart enough, so we should quit trying? Like, for whatever reason, blacks and hispanics are underrepresented in the industry. Let's try to fix that. I don't know what's so objectionable about that? It seems to be coming from white and asians feeling that they're being disadvantaged, but really it's that whites and asians have been over-advantaged, and a push towards equality, is only disadvantaging on a relative scale?

- This brings me to my [least] favorite line in the article. Libertarians have this compelling need to oversimplify everything to maximize a single metric, and ignore all other metrics. The US HAS to be the absolute best, and do so in the most efficient manner, even if that means trampling over the civil liberties of certain people. We have to make the most chips for the least amount of money, and disregard any deviation from that path, including things like DEI that attempts to correct a separate inefficiency in the socioeconomic fabric of our society. No time and no money for that. And they justify this by stifling the public under a pillow of fear.



It's just... ::chefs kiss:: no notes. What an incredible blend of eyerolling HS debate-level rhetoric, strawmen, factual error, jingoism, xenophobia; it's really like they lifted this straight from Reddit, except on Reddit, there would be at least 200 comments defending US Naval superiority.


Keep in my mind that this is a word-limited opinion piece and not a 300 page dissertation (so of course it's going to lack a robust analysis of all relevant information.) When I strip out the political commentary, I understand the opinion to convey the following; DEI requirements as part of the CHIP ACT implementation are giving pause to, and constraining manufacturers from fully embracing expansion under the act. I believe that's their opinion (at least that's the way I read it.) Will their opinion/position be born out in the reality that follows? We shall see. If I'm still vertical 6 months or a year from now, and more information is available, I'll follow up and we can make a judgement.


idk how vertical you are, your first thought on the issue was a single word: "Depressing."


If chip plants are not built, which otherwise would have been built (as some believe) if not for DEI requirements, then yes, it's depressing. It's early in the process so we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1475 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:07 pm

popper wrote:
If chip plants are not built, which otherwise would have been built (as some believe) if not for DEI requirements, then yes, it's depressing. It's early in the process so we'll just have to wait and see.


We got it the first time popper! And my immediate reply was "this is an absolutely nutballs, crazypants idea to entertain." It is not worth writing 5 pages worth of text to defend it. Obviously microsoft is trying to extort money out of Ohio and the Fed. If the factory doesn't get built, it will be because microsoft extorted a better offer out of another state, or China. DEI has absolutely nothing to do with it and you know this. This is trolling.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1476 » by pancakes3 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:20 pm

If we would increase the corporate tax rate, we'd see an increase in corporate reinvestment/expansion, the return of pensions being paid out, higher wages, etc.

But shareholder dividends would drop, the horror.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1477 » by popper » Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:24 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:
If chip plants are not built, which otherwise would have been built (as some believe) if not for DEI requirements, then yes, it's depressing. It's early in the process so we'll just have to wait and see.


We got it the first time popper! And my immediate reply was "this is an absolutely nutballs, crazypants idea to entertain." It is not worth writing 5 pages worth of text to defend it. Obviously microsoft is trying to extort money out of Ohio and the Fed. If the factory doesn't get built, it will be because microsoft extorted a better offer out of another state, or China. DEI has absolutely nothing to do with it and you know this. This is trolling.


Trolling? No. If I didn't think the article was worth reading and contemplating I wouldn't have posted it. The companies mentioned in the piece were Intel, Samsung and TSMC (no mention of Microsoft). I've been surprised by the reaction to my post because;

.... the goal of the Chips Act was to offer sufficient incentives to onshore more chip manufacturing

..... after passage of the act the administration added costly and time consuming implementing requirements

.... it's axiomatic that companies would then measure the benefits of the original incentives against the cost-to-comply of the subsequent implementing requirements

.... we will see sometime in the near future whether or not that business calculation serves to achieve the objectives of the original Chip Act or not.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1478 » by pancakes3 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:45 pm

Re: Purpose of CHIPS Act

Well, no, the Act is comprehensive and has multiple agendas. Only $39B of the $250B is going towards subsidies for chip manufacturing plus 25% investment tax credits for costs of manufacturing equipment. $13B is going towards workforce training, and the overwhelming majority of the funding ($174B) is going towards promoting research in science and technology, including in NASA, the DOE, and NIST (trickled down to Academia).

One of the goals is to kickstart domestic chip manufacturing, but also it's for training our labor force, which is proving to be not sufficiently educated or prepared for high-tech manufacturing jobs, and also r&d for newer, better, and PROPRIETARY chip technology that would in turn help with national security.

So it's not only incorrect to say "if these chip companies aren't building as many plants as possible in the US, the Act has failed," it's also myopic. We want these corporations to (a) build plants; (b) that provide jobs; (c) make sure those jobs are highly skilled and highly paid positions; (d) and make sure that we are being fair and equitable in the hiring practices of those jobs to ensure that we don't allow ourselves to let our biases creep in and close the doors to these highly skilled and highly paid positions to underrepresented minorities. Additionally, we don't just want the plants, we want to make sure that going forward, we remain the leader in chip technology, and we can't rely on corporations to be on the cutting edge, because they can sell the tech to the highest bidder, so we need to invest in Government research to better ensure national security and technological superiority. This is how legislation should work. Not a singular vision that lacks context, vision, but can be easily distilled down into a soundbyte like "Muslim Ban" or "Build the Wall."

Re: Domestic investments into chip manufacturing.

In November 2021, Samsung announced plans to build a $17B semiconductor factory to begin operations in the second half of 2024.

Also in November 2021, TSMC announced a joint venture with Sony to build a semiconductor facility in Japan, with the initial investment being $7B, with Sony investing approximately $500 million for a less than 20% stake.

In January 2022, Intel selected New Albany, Ohio, near Columbus, Ohio, as the site for a major new manufacturing facility, with an estimated cost of $20B. Intel also choose Magdeburg, Germany, as a site for two new chip mega factories for €17 billion. The start of the construction was initially planned for 2023, but this has been postponed to late 2024,

The CHIPS act was passed nearly 1 year later in August 2022.

In September 2022, Wolfspeed announced it will build the world's largest silicon carbide semiconductor plant in Chatham County, North Carolina. By 2030, the company expects to occupy more than one million square feet of manufacturing space across 445 acres, at a cost of $1.3B.

In October 2022, Micron Technology announced it will invest $20B in a new chip factory in Clay, New York, to take advantages of the subsidies in the act and signaled it could expand its investments to $100B over 20 years.

In December 2022, TSMC announced the opening of the company's second chip plant in Arizona, raising its investments in the state from $12B to $40B. At that time, company officials said that construction costs in the U.S. were four to five times those in Taiwan (due to alleged higher costs of labor, red tape, and training) and that they were having difficulty finding qualified personnel (so some US hires were sent for training in Taiwan for 12–18 months), so it will cost at least 50% more to make a TSMC chip in the United States than in Taiwan.

In February 2023, Texas Instruments announced an $11B investment in a new 300-mm wafer fab in Lehi, Utah.

In February 2023, Integra Technologies announced a $1.8B proposal for expanding their operation in Wichita, Kansas.

In February 2023, EMP Shield announced a $1.9B proposal for a new campus in Burlington, Kansas.

In April 2023, Bosch announced it was acquiring TSI Semiconductors and investing $1.5B in upgrades geared toward making silicon carbide chips at the TSI plant in Roseville, California.

In June 2023, the French company Mersen, a subsidiary of Le Carbone Lorraine, announced it will spend $81 million on an expansion project in Bay City and Greenville, Michigan

Re: Delays

TSMC reported that fab construction in Arizona was running behind schedule due to "an insufficient amount of skilled workers" with the expertise needed to install specialized equipment. TSMC planned to send experienced Taiwanese technicians to train local workers, which local unions characterized as "a lack of respect for American workers". The Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council subsequently asked Congress to block visas for 500 Taiwanese workers. TSMC reported that due to issues with labor, its $40 billion investment in the Arizona fab (the largest investment ever made by a foreign company in the US) is expected to be delayed into 2025. In contrast, in February 2024 TSMC completed construction of its first fab in Japan, located in the Kumamoto region, in 20 months, by running 24-hour shifts and the Japanese being welcoming to the influx of skilled Taiwanese workers needed for the project.

Intel experienced delays from labor issues, with its planned Ohio fab expected to be delayed into 2026 due to a lack of skilled workers, as well as delays in grant funding.

Intel also delayed its opening for its German plant, asking the government for more public subsidies. Intel cited surging energy and raw materials prices had upset the U.S. company's original calculations. Where Intel had originally budgeted for costs of €17B, it is not estimating €20B.

I don't see DEI being mentioned anywhere in any primary source as the reason for any delays, nor have I seen any primary sources say that an investor decided to stop its investment because of DEI.

*Like, think about what Popper is saying here. The government is handing out billions and billions of dollars in free money and tax incentives, and companies are so racist that they are saying "thanks but no thanks. You can keep your money, I, as a faceless, soulless business entity have a very particular views on race, and I don't want to hire any black people. In fact, I don't want to take your free money because the National Science Foundation is getting a DEI chairperson" Then Popper comes in and says "well shoot, if those companies don't want to hire black people, they shouldn't have to. let the most qualified people get the job, and if none of them are black, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles." And he's saying that in the face of the evidence showing that the reason for delay is a labor issue - that NO AMERICANS are qualified, which is why Taiwanese workers who have decades of experience need to be flown in to help get the project off the ground. And when staring at that piece of information, seemingly, Popper is saying "Well, no Americans includes no Black Americans, right? We should still get rid of DEI just to be safe."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1479 » by popper » Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:15 pm

pancakes3 wrote:Re: Purpose of CHIPS Act

Well, no, the Act is comprehensive and has multiple agendas. Only $39B of the $250B is going towards subsidies for chip manufacturing plus 25% investment tax credits for costs of manufacturing equipment. $13B is going towards workforce training, and the overwhelming majority of the funding ($174B) is going towards promoting research in science and technology, including in NASA, the DOE, and NIST (trickled down to Academia).

One of the goals is to kickstart domestic chip manufacturing, but also it's for training our labor force, which is proving to be not sufficiently educated or prepared for high-tech manufacturing jobs, and also r&d for newer, better, and PROPRIETARY chip technology that would in turn help with national security.

So it's not only incorrect to say "if these chip companies aren't building as many plants as possible in the US, the Act has failed," it's also myopic. We want these corporations to (a) build plants; (b) that provide jobs; (c) make sure those jobs are highly skilled and highly paid positions; (d) and make sure that we are being fair and equitable in the hiring practices of those jobs to ensure that we don't allow ourselves to let our biases creep in and close the doors to these highly skilled and highly paid positions to underrepresented minorities. Additionally, we don't just want the plants, we want to make sure that going forward, we remain the leader in chip technology, and we can't rely on corporations to be on the cutting edge, because they can sell the tech to the highest bidder, so we need to invest in Government research to better ensure national security and technological superiority. This is how legislation should work. Not a singular vision that lacks context, vision, but can be easily distilled down into a soundbyte like "Muslim Ban" or "Build the Wall."

Re: Domestic investments into chip manufacturing.

In November 2021, Samsung announced plans to build a $17B semiconductor factory to begin operations in the second half of 2024.

Also in November 2021, TSMC announced a joint venture with Sony to build a semiconductor facility in Japan, with the initial investment being $7B, with Sony investing approximately $500 million for a less than 20% stake.

In January 2022, Intel selected New Albany, Ohio, near Columbus, Ohio, as the site for a major new manufacturing facility, with an estimated cost of $20B. Intel also choose Magdeburg, Germany, as a site for two new chip mega factories for €17 billion. The start of the construction was initially planned for 2023, but this has been postponed to late 2024,

The CHIPS act was passed nearly 1 year later in August 2022.

In September 2022, Wolfspeed announced it will build the world's largest silicon carbide semiconductor plant in Chatham County, North Carolina. By 2030, the company expects to occupy more than one million square feet of manufacturing space across 445 acres, at a cost of $1.3B.

In October 2022, Micron Technology announced it will invest $20B in a new chip factory in Clay, New York, to take advantages of the subsidies in the act and signaled it could expand its investments to $100B over 20 years.

In December 2022, TSMC announced the opening of the company's second chip plant in Arizona, raising its investments in the state from $12B to $40B. At that time, company officials said that construction costs in the U.S. were four to five times those in Taiwan (due to alleged higher costs of labor, red tape, and training) and that they were having difficulty finding qualified personnel (so some US hires were sent for training in Taiwan for 12–18 months), so it will cost at least 50% more to make a TSMC chip in the United States than in Taiwan.

In February 2023, Texas Instruments announced an $11B investment in a new 300-mm wafer fab in Lehi, Utah.

In February 2023, Integra Technologies announced a $1.8B proposal for expanding their operation in Wichita, Kansas.

In February 2023, EMP Shield announced a $1.9B proposal for a new campus in Burlington, Kansas.

In April 2023, Bosch announced it was acquiring TSI Semiconductors and investing $1.5B in upgrades geared toward making silicon carbide chips at the TSI plant in Roseville, California.

In June 2023, the French company Mersen, a subsidiary of Le Carbone Lorraine, announced it will spend $81 million on an expansion project in Bay City and Greenville, Michigan

Re: Delays

TSMC reported that fab construction in Arizona was running behind schedule due to "an insufficient amount of skilled workers" with the expertise needed to install specialized equipment. TSMC planned to send experienced Taiwanese technicians to train local workers, which local unions characterized as "a lack of respect for American workers". The Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council subsequently asked Congress to block visas for 500 Taiwanese workers. TSMC reported that due to issues with labor, its $40 billion investment in the Arizona fab (the largest investment ever made by a foreign company in the US) is expected to be delayed into 2025. In contrast, in February 2024 TSMC completed construction of its first fab in Japan, located in the Kumamoto region, in 20 months, by running 24-hour shifts and the Japanese being welcoming to the influx of skilled Taiwanese workers needed for the project.

Intel experienced delays from labor issues, with its planned Ohio fab expected to be delayed into 2026 due to a lack of skilled workers, as well as delays in grant funding.

Intel also delayed its opening for its German plant, asking the government for more public subsidies. Intel cited surging energy and raw materials prices had upset the U.S. company's original calculations. Where Intel had originally budgeted for costs of €17B, it is not estimating €20B.

I don't see DEI being mentioned anywhere in any primary source as the reason for any delays, nor have I seen any primary sources say that an investor decided to stop its investment because of DEI.

*Like, think about what Popper is saying here. The government is handing out billions and billions of dollars in free money and tax incentives, and companies are so racist that they are saying "thanks but no thanks. You can keep your money, I, as a faceless, soulless business entity have a very particular views on race, and I don't want to hire any black people. In fact, I don't want to take your free money because the National Science Foundation is getting a DEI chairperson" Then Popper comes in and says "well shoot, if those companies don't want to hire black people, they shouldn't have to. let the most qualified people get the job, and if none of them are black, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles." And he's saying that in the face of the evidence showing that the reason for delay is a labor issue - that NO AMERICANS are qualified, which is why Taiwanese workers who have decades of experience need to be flown in to help get the project off the ground. And when staring at that piece of information, seemingly, Popper is saying "Well, no Americans includes no Black Americans, right? We should still get rid of DEI just to be safe."


Sorry. I should have said the manufacturing component of the Chip Act. Thanks for pointing that out. And excellent research BTW. The thread benefits from your thorough consideration of the topic. Your last paragraph is ridiculous though, but if it makes you feel better to impart such offensive motives to my thoughts on the matter then so be it. It detracts from your otherwise excellent post in a way that's unbecoming of your character.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXII 

Post#1480 » by dobrojim » Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:16 pm

https://www.apa.org/topics/implicit-bias

Implicit bias, also known as implicit prejudice or implicit attitude, is a negative attitude, of which one is not consciously aware, against a specific social group.

Implicit bias is thought to be shaped by experience and based on learned associations between particular qualities and social categories, including race and/or gender. Individuals’ perceptions and behaviors can be influenced by the implicit biases they hold, even if they are unaware they hold such biases. Implicit bias is an aspect of implicit social cognition: the phenomenon that perceptions, attitudes, and stereotypes can operate prior to conscious intention or endorsement.


https://perception.org/research/implicit-bias/

Implicit bias is a universal phenomenon, not limited by race, gender, or even country of origin. Take this test to see how it works for you: Implicit Bias Test


(the implicit bias test is a hyperlink when you visit the page above. Anyone can take the test. That said,
if you choose to, be prepared for a score you may not find to be flattering.

We ALL can and do harbor implicit biases.
The path to becoming a 'better person' might include being brutally honest about this part of human nature.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities

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