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Deni Avdija - Part II

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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#381 » by tontoz » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:10 pm

Runner300 wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Per 36 minutes Deni is taking fewer 3 pt attempts this year than last year.


This stat isn't relevant for this discussion.
How many of those 3's are easy shots?
Also, I mentioned "last games", and in last 5 games he has taken 4.4 3pt attempts per game.


And he's played 35 minutes per game over the last 5 games.

Yr 1 he attempted 4.8 3s per 36
Yr 2 he attempted 4.7 3s per 36
Yr 3 he attempted 4.1 3s per 36

Given how poorly he shot over his 1st 3 seasons it isn't like the defense was aggressively contesting his 3s.

A few of the 3s he made last night were heavily contested, especially the last one.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#382 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:14 pm

Wizraeli wrote:
nate33 wrote:Well yeah, sure. Confidence has helped. But he got confident because he got better and was then rewarded with more usage.

I just reject the narrative that his earlier struggles and his recent breakout are the results of changes in team's offensive philosophy - that the team was somehow "wrong" in their development of Deni at first, and are now "right" and it is paying off.

I think you have the cause and effect backwards. Deni got better individually, and then the team adapted and began to utilize his improved skillset effectively


It's a chicken and the egg argument, and still, you can't say this team was the international gold standard of players development or organized offense(or defense) in recent years, if the team wasn't wrong why they fired their GM? if they weren't wrong why they fired 2 coaches? if they weren't wrong why a good portion of this forum was complaining about Deni being benched and getting a short leash while others who played worse than him wasn't?


Nobody is saying the organization is perfect. But, generally speaking, I think they've handled Deni's development very well. The firings of the GM and the first coach had nothing to do with player development and had everything to do with the team shifting direction from the Beal era to a rebuild era.

You can argue that the firing of Wes was an indictment of the organization and there may be some truth to that. But overall, I thought Wes was doing a pretty good job of developing our important young players (Deni, Bilal, Kispert, Gafford) on an individual basis. They were all having career best years even before the coaching change. I think Wes was fired mostly because he was a bad in-game tactician and we lost too many winnable games, which led to him eventually losing the locker room. Also, our defensive execution was a mess. I don't think he was fired for lack of development of the young guys though.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#383 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:15 pm

Wizraeli wrote:
nate33 wrote:Well yeah, sure. Confidence has helped. But he got confident because he got better and was then rewarded with more usage.

I just reject the narrative that his earlier struggles and his recent breakout are the results of changes in team's offensive philosophy - that the team was somehow "wrong" in their development of Deni at first, and are now "right" and it is paying off.

I think you have the cause and effect backwards. Deni got better individually, and then the team adapted and began to utilize his improved skillset effectively


It's a chicken and the egg argument, and still, you can't say this team was the international gold standard of players development or organized offense(or defense) in recent years, if the team wasn't wrong why they fired their GM? if they weren't wrong why they fired 2 coaches? if they weren't wrong why a good portion of this forum was complaining about Deni being benched and getting a short leash while others who played worse than him wasn't?


Let's leave it at there's a some truth to both arguments.

I've been vocal proponent and fan of Deni but I don't think he was capable of how he's played this year even last year, though he did show flashes and obviously he's always been a stout and versatile defender, a very good passer and rebounder for his position, and oozed intangibles. But many are right, he's simply improved to the point where the team's management simply can't ignore him anymore. On the other side of the coin, I do think many of his confidence issues were due to being relegated to the peripheries of treadmill teams with guys who had little interest of doing things other than jack up shots, and blatant favoritism and politicking towards vet players. But alas, we all know what happened last summer should have happened a lot sooner, so let's be happy we're finally here.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#384 » by badinage » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:39 pm

I think what really matters here is that the team has a piece. And that means the cupboard of assets — that three months ago seemed kinda bare — is measurably less so. And that means the rebuild got sped up just a little. I’m not saying that this is gonna be a good team in two years — I still think it’s going to take time. But this does change things.

And: I couldn’t be happier for him.

And: What makes this special, for us, is that we got to watch his evolution. A lot of guys don’t evolve. Or not enough. Or they devolve. But we always hope, with a high pick. And that’s the fun. There were guys in the past that I wanted to believe in — John Williams, with all his skills; Oubre, more recently. But none fulfilled what I thought they MIGHT become. Wall did; he really worked on his game and became a wonderful player — I loved him; his vision and his determination and his IQ. Beal grew considerably, too. But these guys were expected to be great. Good teams are good partly because they develop other guys/other guys emerge. It’s so wonderful to see that a homegrown, non-Top 3 talent is emerging.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#385 » by Wizraeli » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:54 pm

nate33 wrote:Nobody is saying the organization is perfect. But, generally speaking, I think they've handled Deni's development very well. The firings of the GM and the first coach had nothing to do with player development and had everything to do with the team shifting direction from the Beal era to a rebuild era.

You can argue that the firing of Wes was an indictment of the organization and there may be some truth to that. But overall, I thought Wes was doing a pretty good job of developing our important young players (Deni, Bilal, Kispert, Gafford) on an individual basis. They were all having career best years even before the coaching change. I think Wes was fired mostly because he was a bad in-game tactician and we lost too many winnable games, which led to him eventually losing the locker room. Also, our defensive execution was a mess. I don't think he was fired for lack of development of the young guys though.


I think rebuilding got a lot to do with player development, I don't know how you can separate the two, I mean, that's usually how it goes, especially with a team that probably isn't going to attract already established stars, this team's rebuild is based on its young assets and draft picks, so if the GM and first coach were fired because of shifting toward a rebuild, that means the team didn't thought they were doing a good job in that area.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#386 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:58 pm

Wizraeli wrote:
nate33 wrote:Nobody is saying the organization is perfect. But, generally speaking, I think they've handled Deni's development very well. The firings of the GM and the first coach had nothing to do with player development and had everything to do with the team shifting direction from the Beal era to a rebuild era.

You can argue that the firing of Wes was an indictment of the organization and there may be some truth to that. But overall, I thought Wes was doing a pretty good job of developing our important young players (Deni, Bilal, Kispert, Gafford) on an individual basis. They were all having career best years even before the coaching change. I think Wes was fired mostly because he was a bad in-game tactician and we lost too many winnable games, which led to him eventually losing the locker room. Also, our defensive execution was a mess. I don't think he was fired for lack of development of the young guys though.


I think rebuilding got a lot to do with player development, I don't know how you can separate the two, I mean, that's usually how it goes, especially with a team that probably isn't going to attract already established stars, this team's rebuild is based on its young assets and draft picks, so if the GM and first coach were fired because of shifting toward a rebuild, that means the team didn't thought they were doing a good job in that area.

This is the last I will talk about this because it may be the most boring argument in the history of Real GM.

Of course rebuilding has to do with development. But Brooks wasn't hired to develop guys. He was hired to win. So changing from Brooks to Wes is not a sign of organizational failure. It's merely a change in coaching to suit the change in organizational direction. It had nothing to do with Deni.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#387 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:00 pm

I think it's now safe to say that Deni is the best Wizards draft pick since Beal. I think it's pretty reasonable at this point to project Deni ahead of Otto Porter - particularly if you factor Porter's health.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#388 » by tontoz » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:02 pm

Highlights from last night. I don't understand why i can't get the youtube button to embed the vid.

https://youtu.be/fuZkDd1rLP4?si=oSzn4L9cNz04YvC_
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#389 » by payitforward » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:05 pm

nate33 wrote:If this breakout is real and Deni is now a consistent and efficient 20/9/4 player with good D, that may cause a problem with our protected first round pick owed to NY.

Deni might actually be a legit foundational player - maybe not quite an All-Star, but in the Mikal Bridges/OG Anunoby tier of guys that everyone wants because they help you win. We can still tank with one guy that good on the roster, but if we find another one, it's going to be tough. If Coulibably makes a leap by Year 3, or our 2024 draft pick makes a leap in Year 2, or our 2025 draft pick (Flagg?) has a great rookie year, the team might not finish in the bottom 8 in the 2025/26 season.

I guess that's a good problem to have. It's pretty exciting to feel legitimate hope for the first time since John Wall got hurt six years ago.

:) 100% !
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#390 » by Kanyewest » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:13 pm

tontoz wrote:Highlights from last night. I don't understand why i can't get the youtube button to embed the vid.

https://youtu.be/fuZkDd1rLP4?si=oSzn4L9cNz04YvC_

;ab_channel=NBA
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#391 » by tontoz » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:18 pm

That is one regular season game that i will never forget. We we down 20 in the second quarter and Deni put on his MJ cape.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#392 » by payitforward » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:18 pm

Dang!
This "chicken and egg" argument will go downhill in a hurry if we start focusing why the GM was fired, etc....

Deni just turned 23. He's much improved. & he had a truly outstanding game last night. way to go Deni!
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#393 » by Wizraeli » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:21 pm

nate33 wrote:Of course rebuilding has to do with development. But Brooks wasn't hired to develop guys. He was hired to win. So changing from Brooks to Wes is not a sign of organizational failure. It's merely a change in coaching to suit the change in organizational direction. It had nothing to do with Deni.



Brooks was fired in June 2021, Beal signed a 5 years contract with the Wiz a full year later in July 2022, that doesn't support your claim that Brooks was fired because of a change in organizational direction from a Beal era to a rebuild era, It does support the claim that he was fired because the management wasn't happy with his results, whether it's wins or development or both, we don't know, we just know they weren't happy.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#394 » by Wizraeli » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:22 pm

tontoz wrote:Highlights from last night. I don't understand why i can't get the youtube button to embed the vid.

https://youtu.be/fuZkDd1rLP4?si=oSzn4L9cNz04YvC_


Because you need to put the ID, not the URL.

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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#395 » by Wizraeli » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:23 pm

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:Let's leave it at there's a some truth to both arguments.



I agree there's some truth to both arguments, and in fact, I never claimed otherwise, all I've said was that Deni is a completely different player, I didn't even said anything about how he scored and why.


CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:I've been vocal proponent and fan of Deni but I don't think he was capable of how he's played this year even last year, though he did show flashes and obviously he's always been a stout and versatile defender, a very good passer and rebounder for his position, and oozed intangibles. But many are right, he's simply improved to the point where the team's management simply can't ignore him anymore. On the other side of the coin, I do think many of his confidence issues were due to being relegated to the peripheries of treadmill teams with guys who had little interest of doing things other than jack up shots, and blatant favoritism and politicking towards vet players. But alas, we all know what happened last summer should have happened a lot sooner, but let's be happy we're finally here.


Completely agree.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#396 » by tontoz » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:28 pm

Deni sucked under Wes last season, but then had his career best months in Nov and Jan under Wes. I didn't notice a sudden change in Wes that was more Deni friendly this season.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#397 » by dckingsfan » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:53 pm

This might be a double post. But when you look at Deni and say he isn't a #1 on offense, that doesn't mean he can't be #1 on defense, right? Or to be competitive do we really need a #1 defensive rim protector to move to the next level.

So at best, Deni is a #2, #3 on offense and #2, #3 on defense?

Still - that is a piece for the rebuild :)
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#398 » by 2Fluffy4U » Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:17 pm

I just hope people here won't loose their minds when he has 1/8 from 3 and 4 bunnies in a game..
Highs and Lows.. this is just one game - lets enjoy the long road..
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#399 » by tontoz » Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:21 pm

2Fluffy4U wrote:I just hope people here won't loose their minds when he has 1/8 from 3 and 4 bunnies in a game..
Highs and Lows.. this is just one game - lets enjoy the long road..


That's just it, it hasn't been just one game. He scored over 20 the previous 3 games shooting well over 60% in all of them. For the month he is averaging 23/9 with a TS of 71%.

For the season he is shooting 40% from 3, a sentence i really didn't think i would type this year.
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Re: Deni Avdija - Part II 

Post#400 » by DCZards » Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:42 pm

I recall there being a game against Boston in late March last season where we got a glimpse of what Deni is capable of doing.

He scored 25 pts (with 5 threes) and pulled down 10 rebounds. Deni took over the game in the last quarter with his scoring and rebounding...and topped it off with a steal in the last minute or so to seal the win.

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