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Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#81 » by nate33 » Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:14 pm

badinage wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
Man, this is so embarrassing and another reflection of Nepo Wes bad coaching. This roster sucks but the coach does too!



Lowe has clowned the wizards a few times, in a good natured way. He had a ranking of the teams he liked to watch on league pass. Wizards were last of course.

He has given props to Bilal though.


What does he mean, “a Wizards-style offense”? What style is it that he thinks they play?

A style where Poole and Kuzma jack up bad shots early in the shot clock without first trying to run some sets and gain an advantage.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#82 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:47 pm

I know I say this a lot but when the deadline passes, even if we didn't make any moves, let's sit Delon and Poole, start Kispert (or even Shamet) and give Jared Butler a real chance.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#83 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:45 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I know I say this a lot but when the deadline passes, even if we didn't make any moves, let's sit Delon and Poole, start Kispert (or even Shamet) and give Jared Butler a real chance.


Kispert is going to have to figure something out on defense to be truly a piece you consider keeping. If he was simply somewhat below average you could make the case, but he's been atrocious. He's constantly on skates, doesn't use his body, takes bad angles, loses his man, etc. Because of this is he is constantly targeted, and our defense just completely breaks down.

I want to like Kispert, I liked him where we selected him, but he has been a complete sieve on the defensive side of the ball his whole, albeit fledgling, NBA career. He's not a starter because of it.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#84 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:51 pm

I agree he's been terrible but it's Jordan Poole starting ahead of him. Poole's been awful as well; at least Kispert has size and can shoot. If we are going to forcefeed one of them minutes, let it be Kispert (or, of course, bring up Jared Butler and make him the starter). Shamet's probably been the best overall but he's a known factor and not someone who is being groomed so it's really between Poole, Kispert, and Johnny Davis as to who you want to develop unless you move Deni back to SG and start Coulibaly.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#85 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:25 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I agree he's been terrible but it's Jordan Poole starting ahead of him. Poole's been awful as well; at least Kispert has size and can shoot. If we are going to forcefeed one of them minutes, let it be Kispert (or, of course, bring up Jared Butler and make him the starter). Shamet's probably been the best overall but he's a known factor and not someone who is being groomed so it's really between Poole, Kispert, and Johnny Davis as to who you want to develop unless you move Deni back to SG and start Coulibaly.


I agree there, but I'd almost hedge to Shamet in that case. I'd be willing to even give Davis a shot, but someone has got to tell him it's okay if he misses because he's afraid to shoot at this point; obviously it looks pretty grim for his NBA hopes at this point. I think starting Kispert just does a disservice to the other starters because he's that bad on defense, and I'd like to see some improvement on that end of the court to close the season.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#86 » by payitforward » Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:11 pm

I wasn't sure where to put this super-interesting youtube video. This might be a good spot. It's a thoughtful, well-argued & well-presented, deep dive into a point nate makes quite often & compellingly: the death of the power forward. Enjoy:

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#87 » by dckingsfan » Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:19 pm

Frichuela wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
tontoz wrote:We weren't competitive with Utah. We were down 20 to start the 4th quarter and lost by 15. The closest we got was 12.

Kuzma dropped 13 in the last 9 minutes when the game was decided so he could pad his stats after a crap start.

Coach should have benched Kuz for the fourth quarter. It would send a message that if you play like poopoo for the first 3 quarters there will be no padding stats. It would definitely change the dynamics.


Agreed. Now, would Keefe have the cojones to do so? Time will tell…

And here are the players I would like to see play at that point. Jones, Wright, Coulibaly, Davis, Avdija, Kispert, Gafford & Bagley.

Poole and Kuz get to sit. If we aren't competitive in the 4th then they pay the penalty for not playing D and jacking up shots.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#88 » by doclinkin » Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:12 pm

payitforward wrote:I wasn't sure where to put this super-interesting youtube video. This might be a good spot. It's a thoughtful, well-argued & well-presented, deep dive into a point nate makes quite often & compellingly: the death of the power forward. Enjoy:




Well-reasoned, and about 3 years out of date. Missing the refs rules emphasis that has shifted the league away from the pace & space era.

The East is going Big. Consider the standings in the EC. The Celtics top the win column. Their offseason acquisition was to get bigger, adding a skilled 7+ footer and shipping out their 6'3" defensive guard. They start the game with Tatum at PF, true, but have played significant minutes with both Horford and Porzingis. Five of their top 10 most used lines have a 2-big front court.

The Bucks and Cavs both run a 2 big front. The Bucks back up Giannis with the 6'11" Bobby Portis playing over 25 minutes a game. The Cavs have parlayed their two 7 footers to a top ranked defense. New York plays PF Randle heavy minutes next to the 7 foot Robinson and Hartenstein who freely rotate in and out of the game. The 250lb Randle notably is taking far fewer 3pters this year scoring a significantly larger portion of his buckets inside of 10 feet. Philly has Embiid, who practically counts as two bigs by himself, and is one of the drivers of teams going big in the EC. Maybe they fit the mold described here since Harris has always played smallish for a traditional PF. Embiid simply needs more space than anyone else though, and by himself fills the lane at either end.

In my read, the West still hasn't fully committed to the Bigness or adjusted to the post Warriors era. Jokic brings an impossible x-factor to the equation, for which there really isn't a counter. (My feeling is you might as well go Big on him and let him pitch it from outside). The Lakers play Big, but aren't playing great. The Clips are riding multiple Hall of Famers and hoping to over-talent everyone to death. Likewise the Suns. I think they both fail in the playoffs, you never know. But OKC tops the standings out of nowhere, solely by adding a skilled 7'4" rookie defender who averages a ridiculous number of blocks per game. The W's lose thier X-factor in Draymond, and have discovered instead they need rookie TJD who plays a traditional low post game.

I've said it for a while. Biggitude is coming back. If teams can no longer rack up cheap fouls against opponents with a dribble-drive attack, and defenders can play close against a 3pt shooter without fear of cheap whistles, it becomes harder to score. So high percentage interior scoring becomes more valuable. Yes spacing matters, if you can add an outside scoring Big you have an option, a weapon, and can play a motion offense around that guy to free up lanes for that interior scoring. That's nice. It's an option.

But when finesse and motion break down it is still seriously valuable to have a guy you can pound the ball to down low who can finish despite contact. It's why to my mind a guy like Zach Edey is going to be undervalued wherever he is picked. He defends the interior with his immensity, and is unstoppable at the other end. Catches with huge soft hands above the traffic. Defends with angles and length but never fouls. Is unmovable when he has position.

Which means a true point guard becomes more valuable, if they can get that guy the ball. And why I expect at some point tall passers will be the next coveted position. Why I think Pop is trying so hard to develop Jeremy Sochan in the role. You want guys who can pass over the traffic to the big, with entry passes or lobs for easy dunks. So the role that might be deemphasized is not the shooting guard, but the small PG. The dribble-drive ball-handling guard who stalls the ball outside the arc. If he can't get the ball to the big then you won't need him. You'll still want that strong 6'6"+ guard who can ignore contact and finish despite the foul. That guy is going to get the whistles on their behalf. The 2-3 swingman is still useful. As is any big who can score, at either position.

My feeling is what teams will really want over the next era are long strong forwards who can pass well and finish through contact. A team of 1-3 swingman hybrids. And a giant switchable 4-5 front line that deters interior attacks. But its the little guy that teams can just shoot over that's going to become more and more of a liability, unless they've got that Dame/Stef Curry range. Or if you get one that's remarkably good at delivering the ball to the interior Big. And even then.

If you were building a team from scratch you'd pick the 6'5" PG Haliburton over either Dame or Trae Young or Kyrie Irving. You want the guy who doesn't get smothered up by defense. Because it's still a game of Bigness. Everybody trying to get close to that 10 foot hoop. Some guys just start with the advantage of not having to jump to get there.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#89 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:38 am

A very compelling, well-argued position, doc. It'll be interesting to watch things shift over the next several years.

As to Haliburton, I think he's got a chance to win an MVP or two in his career. He's absolutely terrific. The best player out of the 2020 draft -- for sure & by a fair amount!
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#90 » by doclinkin » Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:06 pm

All of which is to say I think this team has one potentially key piece in Deni Avdija, if he continues to grow and improve as a passer. We need a dominant interior rebounder, a scary lowpost defender, the rest of that crew of 1-3 hybrids. We need that big playmaker who can initiate offense and score through contact. A whole team really. But we are still in an environment where game-changing frontcourt players are undervalued and can be had on the cheap.

Jalen Duren, Dereck Lively, Tari Eason, Mark Williams, TJD -- recent drafts suggest that players who are notably good will slide down to the late lotto or well outside it. Some like TJD will drop almost all the way out of the draft. Paradoxically upperclassmen tend to slip the furthest, though they are better prepared to play as soon as they enter the league. There's real value there right now.

The league will figure it out again, we will see some inflation in the value of the position. Until then look for players to slip but prove valuable over their NBA career.

Undervalued in this draft:

Zack Edey. But I'll shut up now.

Hunter Dickinson. Mean streak senior Big who has shown 3pt range. Averaging better than a steal per game. Double double average. Minimal fouls. He will probably stay his final year of eligibility to get the large NIL dollars, so he's not in many mocks.

DaRon Holmes. Junior. Projected in the 2nd round. Familiarity prejudice. What team wouldn't want a 6'10" big who is tippytoeing on 60/40/70% shooting. On a high volume 31% usage rate. Per 36 of 22pts 9 boards 3 ast 2.6 blocks. And a profile showing gym rat focus, improving every year in FT% and 3FG%, increasing boards and assists every year, posting a solid positive ast/TO ratio. Small conference, but Holmes is playing better this year even though their strength of schedule has been harder. He's added strength without losing mobility. Holmes is my 2nd round sleeper pick. Hustle player who clearly loves the game and will put in work to improve.



(hmm. better in the draft thread, I'll paste it there for responses).
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#91 » by payitforward » Thu Feb 1, 2024 2:31 am

Count me in on Daron Holmes -- just based on numbers & a half hour of looking at game footage. Looks like he has a chance to be quite a good player.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#92 » by penbeast0 » Thu Feb 1, 2024 5:34 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:I wasn't sure where to put this super-interesting youtube video. This might be a good spot. It's a thoughtful, well-argued & well-presented, deep dive into a point nate makes quite often & compellingly: the death of the power forward. Enjoy:




Well-reasoned, and about 3 years out of date. Missing the refs rules emphasis that has shifted the league away from the pace & space era.

The East is going Big. Consider the standings in the EC. The Celtics top the win column. Their offseason acquisition was to get bigger, adding a skilled 7+ footer and shipping out their 6'3" defensive guard. They start the game with Tatum at PF, true, but have played significant minutes with both Horford and Porzingis. Five of their top 10 most used lines have a 2-big front court.

The Bucks and Cavs both run a 2 big front. The Bucks back up Giannis with the 6'11" Bobby Portis playing over 25 minutes a game. The Cavs have parlayed their two 7 footers to a top ranked defense. New York plays PF Randle heavy minutes next to the 7 foot Robinson and Hartenstein who freely rotate in and out of the game. The 250lb Randle notably is taking far fewer 3pters this year scoring a significantly larger portion of his buckets inside of 10 feet. Philly has Embiid, who practically counts as two bigs by himself, and is one of the drivers of teams going big in the EC. Maybe they fit the mold described here since Harris has always played smallish for a traditional PF. Embiid simply needs more space than anyone else though, and by himself fills the lane at either end.

In my read, the West still hasn't fully committed to the Bigness or adjusted to the post Warriors era. Jokic brings an impossible x-factor to the equation, for which there really isn't a counter. (My feeling is you might as well go Big on him and let him pitch it from outside). The Lakers play Big, but aren't playing great. The Clips are riding multiple Hall of Famers and hoping to over-talent everyone to death. Likewise the Suns. I think they both fail in the playoffs, you never know. But OKC tops the standings out of nowhere, solely by adding a skilled 7'4" rookie defender who averages a ridiculous number of blocks per game. The W's lose thier X-factor in Draymond, and have discovered instead they need rookie TJD who plays a traditional low post game.

I've said it for a while. Biggitude is coming back. If teams can no longer rack up cheap fouls against opponents with a dribble-drive attack, and defenders can play close against a 3pt shooter without fear of cheap whistles, it becomes harder to score. So high percentage interior scoring becomes more valuable. Yes spacing matters, if you can add an outside scoring Big you have an option, a weapon, and can play a motion offense around that guy to free up lanes for that interior scoring. That's nice. It's an option.

But when finesse and motion break down it is still seriously valuable to have a guy you can pound the ball to down low who can finish despite contact. It's why to my mind a guy like Zach Edey is going to be undervalued wherever he is picked. He defends the interior with his immensity, and is unstoppable at the other end. Catches with huge soft hands above the traffic. Defends with angles and length but never fouls. Is unmovable when he has position.

Which means a true point guard becomes more valuable, if they can get that guy the ball. And why I expect at some point tall passers will be the next coveted position. Why I think Pop is trying so hard to develop Jeremy Sochan in the role. You want guys who can pass over the traffic to the big, with entry passes or lobs for easy dunks. So the role that might be deemphasized is not the shooting guard, but the small PG. The dribble-drive ball-handling guard who stalls the ball outside the arc. If he can't get the ball to the big then you won't need him. You'll still want that strong 6'6"+ guard who can ignore contact and finish despite the foul. That guy is going to get the whistles on their behalf. The 2-3 swingman is still useful. As is any big who can score, at either position.

My feeling is what teams will really want over the next era are long strong forwards who can pass well and finish through contact. A team of 1-3 swingman hybrids. And a giant switchable 4-5 front line that deters interior attacks. But its the little guy that teams can just shoot over that's going to become more and more of a liability, unless they've got that Dame/Stef Curry range. Or if you get one that's remarkably good at delivering the ball to the interior Big. And even then.

If you were building a team from scratch you'd pick the 6'5" PG Haliburton over either Dame or Trae Young or Kyrie Irving. You want the guy who doesn't get smothered up by defense. Because it's still a game of Bigness. Everybody trying to get close to that 10 foot hoop. Some guys just start with the advantage of not having to jump to get there.


I can't tell you how often I read this back in the 80s when Magic was at his height and a lot of other teams were trying out Craig Ehlo types to get the big PG . . . or in the 60/70s when the coach of my favorite early ABA team hated Mack Calvin because he didn't like "little piss-ant guards." This comes and goes.

Then a Nate Archibald or Isiah Thomas or another great little guy comes in and everyone is looking for the small guys with great speed or great shooting.

It's cyclical.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#93 » by doclinkin » Thu Feb 1, 2024 5:53 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
I can't tell you how often I read this back in the 80s when Magic was at his height and a lot of other teams were trying out Craig Ehlo types to get the big PG . . . or in the 60/70s when the coach of my favorite early ABA team hated Mack Calvin because he didn't like "little piss-ant guards." This comes and goes.

Then a Nate Archibald or Isiah Thomas or another great little guy comes in and everyone is looking for the small guys with great speed or great shooting.

It's cyclical.


Maybe so. If so we are just coming out of the cycle where Dame, Trae, and Stef forced a run on undersized combo guards and Bigs were played off the floor. Might as well get in early on the next part of the cycle where the league is trying to emphasize defense again.

Currently we are seeing the birth of the Unicorn era. Where Chet and Porzingis are featured on the league-leading teams, and Wemby is on the come-up. In this era you have oversized players showcasing their guard skills. My read is that the counter to that is to go massive and beat them up down low. Let them shoot from outside if they want, just make them doubt they will get easy points underneath. Scare away the skinnies. If opposing bigs want to chuck from far away, cool, it is a lower % shot even if the points count more when they make it. That means there are more rebounds, and their Big is out of position for offensive boards and 2nd chances. If you are the team able to hoover up all the rebounds, and score efficiently from 2 at the other end, you can slow the possession game and starve out the more streaky 3pt and finesse teams.

You can take away pace and space with rebounding and low-post scoring. It is the natural counter. Let them shoot and miss, punish them at the other end. Run and gun can be countered with crash and smash. Crash the boards, walk it up, pound it down their throat.

IF you have the muscle and manpower to do it. Currently muscle and size are available cheap. I say undervalued. A market inefficiency if things keep trending that way. Get in early. I dunno. Could be wrong. Hedge your bets, bet Big on Big is my advice. Only costs you a 2nd rounder or two.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#94 » by payitforward » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:42 pm

doclinkin wrote:...If ...we are just coming out of the cycle where Dame, Trae, and Stef forced a run on undersized combo guards and Bigs were played off the floor... get in early on the next part of the cycle where the league is trying to emphasize defense again.

Currently we are seeing the birth of the Unicorn era. Where Chet and Porzingis are featured on the league-leading teams, and Wemby is on the come-up....

...& who's that other guy? Oh yeah... Nikola Jokic. Not to mention Joel whatsisname.... :)

Talent & skill are what win. All kinds of both!
Strategy should follow talent & skill not the opposite. If one kind is undervalued, focus on it! You'll have a better shot to accumulate a lot of talent efficiently.

Thus...
doclinkin wrote:take away pace and space with rebounding and low-post scoring. It is the natural counter...IF you have the muscle and manpower to do it. Currently muscle and size are available cheap. ...A market inefficiency.... Get in early. ...Only costs you a 2nd rounder or two.

Makes sense to me!
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#95 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 3:33 pm

Give us a team identity too, Thug City USA, like the Bad Boys in Detroit. We pound it inside, bruise you on the offensive boards, and hound you on defense . . . All we have to do is replace pretty much everyone on the team except maybe Deni, Bilal, and Bagley at backup center. Let's do it.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#96 » by nate33 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 4:13 pm

I noted some interesting team Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating and Net Rating rankings for the Wizards this year.

For the season, the rankings look like this:
Net: 28th
Off: 25th
Def: 28th

I'm going to focus on two key inflection points:

The first took place on December 29th when Wes finally abandoned the Gallo at backup center experiment. For the first 30 games, the strategy was clearly to try and outscore the opposition with pace and space. Defense was an afterthought. But they could only take so many blowout losses before their eyes started to bleed and the finally went with a more conventional rotation.

First 30 games (pace and space)
Net: 27th
Off: 25th
Def: 30th

Next 8 games (no Gallo)
Net: 24th
Off: 25th
Def: 23th

It's a relatively subtle distinction, but you can see that the defense improved to at least a passable competence. The offense was the same, or rather, it was probably a bit worse as a team, but that was offset a bit by Poole no longer being quite the disastrous train wreck he was in the first 20 games or so.


The next inflection point took place after the Bagley trade. Muscala was doing his best to play like a professional NBA center, but let's face it, he's really not that guy anymore. Replacing him with a genuine NBA center has done wonders for the defense. The offense would probably be a bit better too, but this stretch has coincided with Kuzma going into an offensive funk (TS% of just .507 over this stretch).

Last 10 games (with Bagley)
Net: 24th
Off: 26th
Def: 15th :o

For what it's worth, there does not appear to be a significant change under Keefe. I think, generally speaking, the team shift to focus on playing professional NBA defense actually happened about 18 games ago and was subsequently boosted by the talent infusion of Bagley. The recent games with Keefe have also benefitted from a pretty easy schedule featuring Detroit, San Antonio and the not-really-that-good Heat:

Last 5 games (since Keefe took over)
Net: 21th
Off: 26th
Def: 12th

Overall, I'm very happy with the development. I think it's a better developmental strategy to focus on being competent on defense and just living with whatever you can muster on offense. The offense will get better as the individual offensive talent improves, while the defense is much more dependent on the culture. You want the young guys to be indoctrinated into a good defensive culture.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#97 » by nate33 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 4:16 pm

By the way, if you cherry-pick our most recent good stretch of play starting with the Indiana win 12 games ago, the Wizards rank 22st by Net Rating, 25th by Offensive Rating, and 9th by Defensive Rating. That wasn't a typo.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#98 » by Runner300 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 8:55 pm

With Jones out, who can fill in as pg?
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#99 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 9:53 pm

Team would be clearly better with Poole off the bench. Not just he's been bad, but he's more of a playmaker than Kispert or Shamet and with Deni as a starter, there's not a lot of playmaking off the bench (Wright, Shamet, Kispert, Bilal, Bagley) so his skills would be better used as well.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread - Part II 

Post#100 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 9:54 pm

Runner300 wrote:With Jones out, who can fill in as pg?


They will probably use Delon but . . . JARED BUTLER! Give him starter minutes and let's see how he plays with the big boys.
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