The Amazingly Sucky Jordan Poole Thread

Kanyewest · Post #41 » by **Kanyewest** » Sun Jan 7, 2024 4:55 pm

leswizards wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
leswizards wrote:Can someone explain to me how Kyle Kuzma has such a high ppa. Looking at his ws/48, his ortg, and his ts%, he looks awful to me. Almost as bad as Poole. Why does Kevin broom rate him so highly?

?
20% more assist, 20% less turnovers, 40% less fouls, 10% more efficient on 10% higher usage.

Kuz has a Siakam stat line offensively at a higher usage rate.

Beyond someone comparing Kuzma to Siakam, no one has explained how Kuzma is rated so highly by Kevin Broom. I just don’t get it.

Per 100 possessions: Kuzma takes 6 more shots than siakam (5.5 as 3PA), yet takes 3 fewer free throws. Siakam is the better rebounder, has more assists, gets more steals, turns over the ball less. Kuzma does get more blocks and fouls less.

Siakam’s ortg, drtg, ws/48, & ts% are all better.

I don’t see the comparison

By the way, Kuzma now has a negative ws/48 for the season.

Kuzma and Poole are arguably 2 of the worst players on this team, yet thanks to wuj, they are leading the team in mpg.

Not sure what the exact reasoning but here are some my guesses

- Kuzma and Siakim play essentially different positions at times. Kuzma is strictly a 4 while Siakim plays center. Therefore one should expect Siakim's efficiency to be much higher.
- Players probably play better offensively next to Kuzma than Siakim simply from a spacing standpoint- ie the Raptors might be better with Kuzma instead of Siakim only because the Raptors don't appear to have much outside shooting.
- Siakim's assist to turnover ratio is not optimal more assists than turnovers.
- Maybe the relative strength/depth of Toronto's roster hurts Siakim's PPA - the Raptors are more easily able to replace what Siakim does when he's not on the floor compared to when Kuzma is off the floor. Not only is the Raptors depth better with guys like Otto Porter Jr, Jalen McDaniels, and Chris Boucher- starters like Scottie Barnes may also play better.
- It seems like the Raptors pieces are a bit redundant - pretty efficient shooters with size but overall they don't have good 3 point shooting although perhaps the IQ trade will help them.

Maybe PPA is effectively measuring Kuzma's on/off court production although that doesn't mean he's better than Siakim.

Kanyewest · Post #42 » by **Kanyewest** » Sun Jan 7, 2024 4:57 pm

Poole shooting 31% from 3 for the season- only time he shot worse was his rookie season.

Post #43 » by **nate33** » Sun Jan 7, 2024 5:22 pm

Poole now ranks 16th worst in the league in TS%. But what's awful is that he also shoots a whole lot. Most of the other bad TS% guys are guys like Ausar Thompson, Kyle Anderson and David Roddy who are acknowledged bad shooters but at least try to restrain their usage. Among the worst 20 guys in TS%, Poole has the second highest usage (behind only Jordan Clarkson, who has finally been benched).

Poole is 3rd worst in the league in "points added". That's a stat that combines TS% and volume and compares it to the NBA average. Poole has cost the team 64 total points by missing shots an average shooter would make. Only Scoot Henderson and Nikola Vucevic have been worse.

Poole is second worst in the league in BPM, behind only the rookie Scoot Henderson. He is dead least in VORP and second-to-last in Win Shares.

You can honestly say, without hyperbole, that Poole is the worst or maybe the second-worst player in the league behind only Scoot Henderson.

AFM · Post #44 » by **AFM** » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:20 pm

In retrospect it's not that surprising. We're the laughing stock of the league and have been for decades.

keynote · Post #45 » by **keynote** » Mon Jan 8, 2024 3:59 pm

Are there any other recent examples of players falling off this hard at this stage of their career, absent injury?

Warriors Analyst · Post #46 » by **Warriors Analyst** » Tue Jan 9, 2024 4:04 am

GoneShammGone wrote:
9 and 20 wrote:Bumping this thread b/c what the heck is going on with this dude. His only real potential contribution is scoring and even on offense he's checked out. How you going to collect 30 mil to be terrible at everything??

Its pretty crazy. I find myself rooting hard for Jordan these days, because I feel sorry for the dude... he seems to becoming the laughingstock of the league. Every time he manages a possession without dibbling the ball off his knee or throwing a lob into the third row I get irrationally happy. He'll come down, take two dribbles, pass it successfully to Deni, and I'll yell "Good job Jordan! Good pass!" at the TV screen. I feel like a Dad watching my eight year old at pee-wee practice.

But yeah, the bar is now set incredibly low for Jordan and he still isn't clearing it, so I don't know what the end game here is. Can we send him to the GoGo? I think the major issue is that despite being in the league for four years, he hasn't developed his handles or his finishing moves. Seemingly every time he manages to get penetration into the lane, he ends up getting his shot blocked or turning it over. Unlike Kispert, he doesn't seem to have any pump fakes or step-throughs or other finishing moves in the lane. I guess that's what four years of playing with Steph Curry does to you... the only thing he knows how to do is take wide open shots. Another line on Steph's GOAT application: managed to make Jordan Poole look like a decent player for four years.

I will say this about Jordan: in the last couple games I've seen an increase in defensive effort. He's so small that it hasn't made much difference, but it does make me think he cares about how badly he has been playing. It remains to be seen if he can do anything to reverse the trend.

In the second half of Poole's rookie season, he became a solid finisher. During his second and third seasons in the league, he was a very good finisher. Point blank. High percentages in the restricted area. But then in his fourth season, he went form getting blocked about .8 times a game to more than once a game. Seems it's gotten worse. One of the guys on the Warriors' board pointed out that tracking data he has seen shows Poole got the ball in his hands more often and for longer in 22-23 compared to 21-22, when he ceded more playmaking duties to Green, Curry, Bjelica, JTA, and Iguodala (early in the season). It seems Poole is more predictable going to the hoop when he's trying to create the play rather than finish one.

nate33 wrote:This may be a cautionary tale to consider if we trade for any other of Golden State's young players (Wiggins or Moody). Have any of Golden State's castoffs gone on to excel on some other team? Wiseman was a bust. Poole was a bust. Harrison Barnes was meh. Juan Toscano-Anderson was terrible. GPII was a bust in Portland (though injuries played a role).

Moody will be solid on another team. Can't really make sense of why he's gotten so little playing time this season. The only logical answer -- and it's not a satisfying one -- is that Kerr has been willing to punt a lot of winnable games in the hopes that Wiggins would un-pumpkin himself. That's yet to happen.

pancakes3 · Post #47 » by **pancakes3** » Tue Jan 9, 2024 5:08 pm

saw him live last night and he's dog doo.

his ceiling is being a microwave off the bench.

FAH1223 · Post #48 » by **FAH1223** » Thu Feb 8, 2024 4:56 am

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TGW · Post #49 » by **TGW** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:56 pm

Just wondering...what does it look like if the Wizards use the stretch provision on Poole? Is that not an option or just a really bad idea? I think he's a perpetual "conduct detrimental to team" by his play on the court. I know that his salary would remain on the books forever, but at this point his minutes could go to other players worth developing.

FAH1223 · Post #50 » by **FAH1223** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:17 pm

TGW wrote:Just wondering...what does it look like if the Wizards use the stretch provision on Poole? Is that not an option or just a really bad idea? I think he's a perpetual "conduct detrimental to team" by his play on the court. I know that his salary would remain on the books forever, but at this point his minutes could go to other players worth developing.

He's got $95M left on his deal.

Stretching that out isn't what I'd want to do.

The stretch provision ensures that any player waived with at least $250K in guaranteed salary remaining on his contract will have the payment schedule of that money spread across multiple years. That schedule is determined as follows:

If a player is waived between July 1 and August 31, his remaining salary is paid over twice the number of years remaining on his contract, plus one.
If a player is waived between September 1 and June 30, his current-year salary is paid on its normal schedule, with any subsequent years spread over twice the number of remaining years, plus one.
If a player in the final year of his contract is waived between September 1 and June 30, the stretch provision does not apply.

AFM · Post #51 » by **AFM** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:04 pm

Yeah he's not getting stretched (PAUSE.) Presumably the only reason he's not benched is they must think whatever's going on with him upstairs would only be exacerbated by being humbled and send to the 2nd unit.

closg00 · Post #52 » by **closg00** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:18 pm

TGW wrote:Just wondering...what does it look like if the Wizards use the stretch provision on Poole? Is that not an option or just a really bad idea? I think he's a perpetual "conduct detrimental to team" by his play on the court. I know that his salary would remain on the books forever, but at this point his minutes could go to other players worth developing.

I am almost convinced that Poole wants to force a buyout

smoothSeph · Post #53 » by **smoothSeph** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:28 pm

closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:Just wondering...what does it look like if the Wizards use the stretch provision on Poole? Is that not an option or just a really bad idea? I think he's a perpetual "conduct detrimental to team" by his play on the court. I know that his salary would remain on the books forever, but at this point his minutes could go to other players worth developing.

I am almost convinced that Poole wants to force a buyout

He'd force himself out the league. I don't think any winning teams are lining up to sign Poole right now.

Post #54 » by **nate33** » Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:57 pm

Read on Twitter

Jordan Poole :nonono:

CntOutSmrtCrazy · Post #55 » by **CntOutSmrtCrazy** » Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:23 pm

nate33 wrote:

Read on Twitter

Jordan Poole

The next nearest guy, Cam Thomas is shooting 5% better.

Is there a stat on absolutely bricking three points as well? He's got to be amongst the worst at those as well.

Frichuela · Post #56 » by **Frichuela** » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:04 pm

Man...I truly hope this all star break has helped Poole get his act together. We shall see, tough back-to-back games tomorrow and Friday...

Post #57 » by **nate33** » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:43 pm

It is now the All-Star Break and Poole remains the most detrimental offensive player in the league.

He is dead last in the league in TS Added, meaning his TS% differential relative to league average times his number of attempts ranks worst in the league. He has cost the team a total of 113.9 points by missing shots that an average NBA player would make. The only other guys even close to Poole in this metric are Scoot Henderson (-112.4 TS Added) and Jalen Green (-101.6 TS Added).

Poole is dead last in VORP at -1.4.

Poole is 2nd-from-last in WS and WS/48, behind only the 19-year-old Scoot.

Poole is 4th-from-last in TS% at just .511. The three guys below him can't legally purchase alcohol yet.

Poole has cleaned up his turnovers a bit. He now ranks 40th in turnovers per minute. So, yay, I guess.

Frichuela · Post #58 » by **Frichuela** » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:55 pm

nate33 wrote:It is now the All-Star Break and Poole remains the most detrimental offensive player in the league.

He is dead last in the league in TS Added, meaning his TS% differential relative to league average times his number of attempts ranks worst in the league. He has cost the team a total of 113.9 points by missing shots that an average NBA player would make. The only other guys even close to Poole in this metric are Scoot Henderson (-112.4 TS Added) and Jalen Green (-101.6 TS Added).

Poole is dead last in VORP at -1.4.

Poole is 2nd-from-last in WS and WS/48, behind only the 19-year-old Scoot.

Poole is 4th-from-last in TS% at just .511. The three guys below him can't legally purchase alcohol yet.

Poole has cleaned up his turnovers a bit. He now ranks 40th in turnovers per minute. So, yay, I guess.

Shocking... :noway:

Post #59 » by **nate33** » Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:23 pm

Over the first 30 games, Poole clearly had the mindset that he was a #1 option and a bad team really needed him to soak up usage. If nothing else, he was making life easier for his teammates by having the defense focus on him, even if his efficiency was a little sub-par. I get the idea in theory, but in practice it didn't work out. Poole carried a USG% of 27.9% but only posted a TS% of .531. That's totally unacceptable. You can't launch over a quarter of the team's shots at a TS% of .531 when league average TS% is 5% higher at .583.

It seems pretty clear that Wes had a conversation with Poole sometime around Christmas and Poole agreed to change his role and scale back on the usage. From December 29th onward, Poole's USG% has been just 21.6%. That's actually a reasonable number for a guy with Poole's theoretical skill set. Guys like Suggs, Reaves, Divencenzo, Portis and Keldon Johnson carry a USG in the 20-22 range. It's third option type of usage. Those guys should be a bit more efficient because they can blend into the offensive system and pick their spots when the defense is off balance.

Here's the problem:

When Poole cut back his usage, his TS% got worse! Over the last 23 games, Poole has posted an incomprehensibly bad TS% of .479! How the heck can you shoot that poorly when you aren't even being asked to take the tough bailout shots?

CntOutSmrtCrazy · Post #60 » by **CntOutSmrtCrazy** » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:27 pm

nate33 wrote:Over the first 30 games, Poole clearly had the mindset that he was a #1 option and a bad team really needed him to soak up usage. If nothing else, he was making life easier for his teammates by having the defense focus on him, even if his efficiency was a little sub-par. I get the idea in theory, but in practice it didn't work out. Poole carried a USG% of 27.9% but only posted a TS% of .531. That's totally unacceptable. You can't launch over a quarter of the team's shots at a TS% of .531 when league average TS% is 5% higher at .583.

It seems pretty clear that Wes had a conversation with Poole sometime around Christmas and Poole agreed to change his role and scale back on the usage. From December 29th onward, Poole's USG% has been just 21.6%. That's actually a reasonable number for a guy with Poole's theoretical skill set. Guys like Suggs, Reaves, Divencenzo, Portis and Keldon Johnson carry a USG in the 20-22 range. It's third option type of usage. Those guys should be a bit more efficient because they can blend into the offensive system and pick their spots when the defense is off balance.

Here's the problem:

When Poole cut back his usage, his TS% got worse! Over the last 23 games, Poole has posted an incomprehensibly bad TS% of .479! How the heck can you shoot that poorly when you aren't even being asked to take the tough bailout shots?

Going to take the Occam's razor approach here and posit he's still taking a lot of bad shots (even if less per game) which the eye test tracks with that. Combined with not having really any great games to buoy his numbers and conversely having several horrendous games that further torpedoed his numbers.

It's a joke he's still starting. It makes us look incompetent that we can't stand up and make a decision that is not only good for the team, but Poole long-term, and bench his ass. Tanking or not, you can't set the precedence we seem hellbent on setting with him. He's had 5/8 of the season to figure something out, nothing has worked. Time for new plan.