What Is Our Lineup?

[montestewart]

Wonder if a team of Foye, Miller, McGuire, Blatche, McGee could win more than the 19 games the Wizards won last year. Liked the mix in the fourth against Memphis.

I think that would be a 15 win team. It seems to me about the level of the Sacramento Kings after trading Miller and Salmons to the Bulls. They were 6-27 which is a 15 win pace. The Sacramento line-up was:

Beno Udrich
Kevin Martin
Fransico Garcia
Jason Thompson
Spencer Hawes

The Wizards back-ups don't have anyone as good as Kevin Martin. However every other match-up is equal or an advantage to the Wizards.

Switch Jamison for Blatche; yeah, they'd lose size but still that could be a great second unit, maybe best in the league.

[LyricalRico]

And you thought we were nitpicking the lineup after one game? Check this out:

Normally, it's hard to nitpick player rotations in the preseason since coaches are just trying to feel out players strengths and weaknesses, especially for Flip Saunders, since he's in his first season as coach. At this point of the year, it's silly to get hung up about whether Player X should have gotten more minutes than Player Y. However, handing out 3 DNP-CD's in a preseason game makes me raise my eyebrows. Benching Paul Davis and Vincent Grier is understandable. The only reason either one is with the team right now is to provide some extra bodies to use through training camp and the preseason. Neither one has a guaranteed contract and they should be gone long before October 29th.

What isn't understandable is why Mike James received no playing time on Tuesday, despite not having any injuries. Sure, he might not end up receiving regular playing time once the season starts, but what's the point in cutting off his minutes already? Even if he doesn't figure into the team's plans this season, he's still filling a roster spot and odds are, they're going to need to help out in some way or another this season.

<snip>

By not even giving him minutes against Memphis, Flip isn't giving Mike any incentive to continue to play hard in practice or keep preparing in case he's called upon later in the season. Say all you want about keeping a professional attitude and all of that, it's not easy to go to work every day and stay motivated after you go and have a strong performance at camp, only to be rewarded with a warm seat on the bench. A few minutes of playing time on Tuesday would've gone a long way to show that the coaching staff appreciated Mike's efforts and want him to keep up the good work, even if they don't envision him getting much playing time. By not even giving him playing time in a game that has no bearing in the final standings, the coaching staff is essentially telling him that he's a lost cause before the season even begins.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/10/9 ... e-benching

Interesting take. I also find it curious that you wouldn't empty your bench in a pre-season game, even if you think certain guys aren't going to play a lot come the regular season. But maybe it's just Flip's plan to give somebody a day off every preseason game and Mike James' name just happened to be up first. Let's see what happens tonight.

[verbal8]

I think DNP-CD for Mike James makes sense. The Wizards are not expecting to get much from Mike James this year. Also he has been playing long enough he has a track record, that would indicate what they should expect from him if they do have to use him more than expected. I think one of the focuses of the game was to get Foye time at PG and playing Mike James would have interfered with that.

The DNP for Crittenton makes a little less sense to me. While he is probably only slightly more likely to play much than James, there is a lot less to go on to determine how productive he could be.

[MJG]

If it was any other player on the roster, I may have agreed, but with James, I see no advantage to even throwing him a few scraps just to be nice. He's terrible! If we get to a point in the season where we need to count on him for minutes, something has gone wrong, and we have bigger problems to worry about than whether James is feeling a little discouraged and not putting in a full effort at practice. I mean, how much worse would he get?

The DNP for Crittenton makes a little less sense to me. While he is probably only slightly more likely to play much than James, there is a lot less to go on to determine how productive he could be.

He's out for a couple of weeks with an injury.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wonder if a team of Foye, Miller, McGuire, Blatche, McGee could win more than the 19 games the Wizards won last year. Liked the mix in the fourth against Memphis.

No way dude. You're essentially swapping Butler/Jamison for Foye/Miller, which is a serious downgrade. Assuming that they are starting because the bench has players that are worse, I doubt that team would even reach double-digits in wins.

Foye and Miller had similar talent around them after Jefferson got hurt, and the TWolves had a better record than the team that started Jamison/Butler. As good as Jamison and Butler are offensively, together they're atrocious defensively. Last season, after Tapscott started Blatche next to Jamison as the frontcourt the defense was bad. It was bad with Jamison and McGee starting before EJ got fired.

Here's 5 reasons why (just for the sake of argument) I think the guys above would win more than 19 games:

1. McGuire, Blatche, and McGee is leaps and bounds better defensively than Butler, Jamison, Blatche.
2. Foye is better than last season's PG (James/Crittenton).
3. Miller is better than last season's SG (Stevenson/Young)
4. Miller, Foye, McGuire, and Blatche are all willing/good passers (Jamison and Young aren't)
5. Most of all, McGee next to Blatche eventually will work. Many dunks and putbacks, particularly with McGuire hustling next to two bigs. All the inside work with Foye and Miller would put the team over 20 wins. Easily IMO.

[REDardWIZskin]

The most important decision for Saunders to make is at SG right now backup pg is not a priority seeing as though critt and james will be competing for the no. 3 spot behind gil and foye most likely. beside i thought critt was injured. Giving james minutes is not important right now, mike's been in the league for a long time he should understand that. Giving players good job minutes is for younger players to keep their confidence and work ethic up. not a 10 yr vet.

[barelyawake]

Gotta admit CCJ, I had the same thoughts during last game (with pretty much the same reasoning).

[dlts20]

I think people are making way too big of a deal over James sitting. You think Flip is going to play all 14 guys every single game just to keep people happy? No way. I think he will rotate every game just like he's doing with the SG spot. Meaning, I think MJ will play tonight and someone like Dom will sit

[LyricalRico]

I think he will rotate every game just like he's doing with the SG spot. Meaning, I think MJ will play tonight and someone like Dom will sit

That's what I was thinking as well. I posted the article for discussion, but I actually agree with you that Flip will likely give at least one guy the night off in every preseason game.

[dlts20]

Flip said James will play tonight:

Saunders said he plans on using Mike James tonight after James got a DNP-CD on Tuesday. “Can’t play all 15 of them,” he said

[LyricalRico]

DeBrick looked like his old solid-but-still-below-average self starting next to Arenas tonight. I think he would still be a useful part of the rotation if he ended up getting minutes.

[doclinkin]

With Haywood out we're still waiting to see all iterations and variations of our complete line. That said the absence of Haywood and Foye's struggles playing behind Gil point out that our depth at these two key positions is still pretty shallow.

Blatche is proving a credible back-up at PF, I'm intrigued to see how the ultrabig line (Wood, Blatche up front, with or without Jamison at 3) looks in real competition, but at least we have an option at the position, and I like that Blatche and McGee are at least developing the offensive chemistry (Dray lobbing to JV for the oop should prove tough to guard for anyone who loses track of McGee and fails to body him).

That said, our starting upside isn't better than the starters on elite teams, our greatest strength is that we should have little dropoff when we go to the bench at positions 2-4. If we can steal minutes and occasionally extend a lead when we go to the bench we should be alright. Looks like the role of Mike MIller is a critical issue though since the second unit thrives with him moving the ball but he hasn't been able to get loose with the starters and play that extra threat, in part because his shot ain't falling. I like that our 'starters' (minus Haywood, and with whomever at 2-guard) have been able to at least hang with the opponents top lines (Toronto 3rd Q).

The league is getting tougher though. You can make a case for a number of Eastern teams being better than they had been. There's few easy outs and a large number of teams clogging up that second tier. Teams like the Pacers, Bulls, Heat, Raps, etc all have cause for optimism.

The Wiz primary mismatch is still: Gil with the ball when he's on. Then: depth against opponent second lines. But our second line isn't a killer mismatch against opponent starters, so I'm not especially disheartened that the squad ain't been winning with Haywood out. Yeah, we knew that: he's critical to our squad. We ain't gonna win much with Fab-O as our best frontcourt defender. Surprise.

[pancakes3]

1 - it's disappointing to hear that Foye is struggling at backup pg. The fact that between Foye, Critter, and James we don't even have a Shannon Brown.

2 - i firmly believe that Young's talents are best used on the 2nd unit. Having young play on the perimeter forces Blatche into the post. if miller was there floating around the perimeter, Blatche is more likely to do his Chris Bosh impression and "show off" his "handles". Young, especially Young 2.0 running off screens puts Blatche in a better rebounding position.

3 - the league may be tougher but it's also very perimeter based. ironically i think we have one of the better front courts in the league. The talent and depth is pretty much unparalleled. we have bodies to throw at Garnett/Bosh, an imposing, strong C to body up Shaq/Howard, and solid defensive rebounding to boot.

4 - I think KG's man-to-man defense is overrated. I think Blatche matches up VERY well against him. If Blatche finally, FINALLY posts up, and spins to the basket, we can have KG in foul trouble early and often. This goes doubly so if Gil can get to the rim and get some calls that way.

5 - Lebron. Defending lebron is all perimeter based. Haywood is not a deterrent to James. Counting on Haywood to defend the basket is just asking him to get into foul trouble. I don't think funneling is the answer either. funneling fosters double teams, and a double team on the perimeter means 3 free points for West/Gibson. We just have to sit back, sag, and hope he doesn't catch fire. The only way to take Lebron out of the game is again, foul trouble. This means pick and rolls with Arenas/Butler. Hopefully butler is up to the task of taking 15-20 screens from Lebron. Maybe even an elbow or two.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

5 - Lebron. Defending lebron is all perimeter based. Haywood is not a deterrent to James. Counting on Haywood to defend the basket is just asking him to get into foul trouble. I don't think funneling is the answer either. funneling fosters double teams, and a double team on the perimeter means 3 free points for West/Gibson. We just have to sit back, sag, and hope he doesn't catch fire. The only way to take Lebron out of the game is again, foul trouble. This means pick and rolls with Arenas/Butler. Hopefully butler is up to the task of taking 15-20 screens from Lebron. Maybe even an elbow or two.

Lebron's team lost in the playoffs when he faced two tall Fs, both of which he struggled to defend. Turkoglu and Howard both made him have to work. Of course, Howard was a deterrent.

I think the way to beat Lebron is to make Jamison the SF, McGee the PF, and Haywood the C. Go big with Arenas and Butler in the backcourt. Simply try to outscore and outrebound them, making sure that Lebron's man can score on or over him is the way I'd go.

Blatche at PF and Oberto at PF when McGee gets in foul trouble, and shifting to Miller at SG with Butler at SF and Jamison at PF for a quickness advantage would be the last line to use at crunch time. Make the game a grind but blow past them in the fourth OR just the opposite; go quick first and then big.

The key to beating Cleveland is to make James have to work hard on defense and on the boards. I don't think James can cover Jamison as easily as he covers Caron. I also think a guy like McGee at PF would be something Cleveland's not looking for.

[pancakes3]

^
all cleveland has to do is stick lebron on Dom (an easy assignment) and have Varajao play Jamison. Blatche would be a much better fit for that UBER big lineup because, like you said, we'll make Lebron burn calories on the defensive end.

however, the flip side to making Lebron work on defense is that you have to go at him. the man he's checking has to either be in constant motion (like rip) or have the ball in his hand. otherwise, Lebron's just going to be standing there catching his breath.

that's why i think pick and rolls are the way to go. either lebron switches on the pick and has to guard arenas, or mo williams fights through the pick and has to guard arenas. if they switch, that's an opportunity for foul trouble. if they don't switch, it's a layup.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

pancakes3, even though Dom's the best guy to cover Lebron, I'm thinking Javale's the guy I want Lebron to have to try and cover. Javale's actually a very productive scorer. I do agree with you, that whover James has to cover has to be continually moving (thus I say Jamison at SF makes sense to me).

pancakes, now that the Cavs have Shaq, high pick and rolls are the way to go on him, too.

[dlts20]

I think Foye's PG struggles are overrated. 1st off he will only play 10-12mpg there but most of all, people have to realize that this is Preseason. Seriously, when he's on the floor at the point, most of the times he has guys like McGee, Dom, etc on the court with him. When the real games start, he wil be playing the point with guys like Miller, Blatche, and most likely 2 of the big 4. I think he will look very good with that group. I could see us having a frontcourt rotation of just 3 guys. That means Foye will be on the floor with like Miller, Butler, Blatche, and Wood. Then when Wood goes out, AJ will come back in. When Caron goes out, Gil will come back in and Foye will be at the 2. Im not nearly as worried as others

[Ed Wood]

Lebron's team lost in the playoffs when he faced two tall Fs, both of which he struggled to defend. Turkoglu and Howard both made him have to work. Of course, Howard was a deterrent.

I think the way to beat Lebron is to make Jamison the SF, McGee the PF, and Haywood the C. Go big with Arenas and Butler in the backcourt. Simply try to outscore and outrebound them, making sure that Lebron's man can score on or over him is the way I'd go.

Blatche at PF and Oberto at PF when McGee gets in foul trouble, and shifting to Miller at SG with Butler at SF and Jamison at PF for a quickness advantage would be the last line to use at crunch time. Make the game a grind but blow past them in the fourth OR just the opposite; go quick first and then big.

The key to beating Cleveland is to make James have to work hard on defense and on the boards. I don't think James can cover Jamison as easily as he covers Caron. I also think a guy like McGee at PF would be something Cleveland's not looking for.

Come on now, the Cavs collective inability to slow down Orlando's offense in the playoffs wasn't really because the Magic were tall. The Cavs weren't actually any smaller than the Magic in the frontcourt anyway and the Magic weren't throwing Gortat/Dwight lineups at the Cavs or anything. The Cavs ran into problems because they had to keep a second defender available to double on Dwight Howard in the post in order to slow him down but regardless of who dropped down to do that the player being left open was an effective outside shooter. If anything the Magic made a case for a more perimeter oriented attack being the most effective way to challenge the Cavs. The Cavs had to try to cover Howard and Lewis with Ilgauskas and Varejao, who were much better suited to defending slower, larger, less perimeter oriented players, like Haywood and McGee. Also, aren’t Jamison and LeBron just about the same size? Yeah Antawn would force James to defend in the post but he wouldn’t be shooting over James.

If we really wanted to try to duplicate Orlando's method to beat the Cavs you'd probably go to either Blatche or McGee in the middle and hope that the quickness advantage they'd have against Ilgauskas would force the Cavs to help him out and then park Arenas, Butler, Jamison and Miller or whoever on the perimeter to hit shots when their defenders sagged to help the big guy. Just standing around and waiting for kickouts suits Miller pretty well but it doesn't sound like a great idea for those other guys, though they could use closeouts as driving opportunities. And we could use Miller as a point forward so our point guard can float around and wait for a catch and shoot opportunity like they did, but Gilbert Arenas is our point guard not Skip. Why are pretending we're the Magic again?

Edit: Forgot the Cavs traded for Shaq, so I guess substitute him for Ilgauskas. But really, why would a team with Shaq, Z and Varejo rely on LeBron to defend a center playing power forward?

[LyricalRico]

The Cavs ran into problems because they had to keep a second defender available to double on Dwight Howard in the post in order to slow him down but regardless of who dropped down to do that the player being left open was an effective outside shooter. If anything the Magic made a case for a more perimeter oriented attack being the most effective way to challenge the Cavs. The Cavs had to try to cover Howard and Lewis with Ilgauskas and Varejao, who were much better suited to defending slower, larger, less perimeter oriented players, like Haywood and McGee.

+1

Exactly what I was thinking. The Orlando lineup cause so many matchup problems, not just because of the size of the players, but also because of their skills. Jamison has decent size and puts up numbers but he's not as good of a 3pt shooter as Lewis and he can't create his own shot like Turkgolu. Butler has the skills but not the size.

They to beating Cleveland IMO would be to pickup the pace so that guys like Shaq and Ilgauskas are completely taken out of the game. And then just hope that our shooting is on for 4 out of 7 games.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... games.html

Judging by the game logs, I'd say double teaming Howard didn't keep him from dropping forty in game 6. The Cavs got burned by Rafer Alston and Pietrus at times, and by Turkoglu and Lewis at others. Orlando had the #1 defense in the NBA and what they did is stop everybody but Lebron. Unlike the Cavs, the Magic didn't worry about Lebron dropping 35 and night.

LR, Jamison averaged 32 and 10 against Cleveland in a playoffs and he could do it again. Lewis is a better shooter than Jamison, but Antawn's a better rebounder and for his career has had a slightly higher PER. Jamison doesn't create off the dribble but he's going to score more and rebound more than Hedo. Jamison's defense is nowhere near those guys' but I bet if he played next to Howard, Antawn's offense would be even better and his defense much less of a liability.

Jamison would score easily on Lebron. More easily than Turkoglu or Lewis IMO.

Iif Jamison's such a liability why did Cleveland want to trade for him? If they had him I bet they wouldn't have lost to the Magic last year.