Official Thread - Wizards @ Thunder

[fishercob]

If there was ever a game to get Mcgee into, match him up with a CFP like Etan. His length could have at least bothered OKC a bit. Even if it's just 5-10 mins. Blatche has to play more too -- with how easily they were getting to the cup we needed him and Haywood in there together tonight. Even McGuire -- steal him 5 mins defending KD at the end of the first 3 Q's. Blatche has proven his mettle over the first 10 games of the year. He needs to keep playing 30 mpg. 15 minutes is unacceptable!

Jamison had 22 and 12, 2 steals and a block, with good shooting percentages. Haywood and 14 points and 16 boards and shot 7/11 from the field. They were the two best players on the team last night. I don't think this was a case where Flip was shortchanging Blatche. He just kept his best players on the floor longer.

But this says nothing of the story at the other half of the floor on a night when the Wiz gave up 127 points. Didn't Flip bring his zone defense here to free us from some 1-on-1 matchup problems? We should have seen a Haywood-Blatche-Jamison front line for a while last night and could have gone to zone D. Ernie's always talking about how versatile we are -- that we have so many guys who can play multiple spots. Given the was Blatche has been playing, you need to get him on the floor. Plus, I'd like to have seen Durant expend some energy guarding Jamison. If you can't match up with a guy at one end, you got to make him work at the other.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If there was ever a game to get Mcgee into, match him up with a CFP like Etan. His length could have at least bothered OKC a bit. Even if it's just 5-10 mins. Blatche has to play more too -- with how easily they were getting to the cup we needed him and Haywood in there together tonight. Even McGuire -- steal him 5 mins defending KD at the end of the first 3 Q's. Blatche has proven his mettle over the first 10 games of the year. He needs to keep playing 30 mpg. 15 minutes is unacceptable!

Jamison had 22 and 12, 2 steals and a block, with good shooting percentages. Haywood and 14 points and 16 boards and shot 7/11 from the field. They were the two best players on the team last night. I don't think this was a case where Flip was shortchanging Blatche. He just kept his best players on the floor longer.

nate, I didn't see the last game. I can't comment on the quality of the minutes of either player against OKC. I do recall from box info that the score was 81-82 when Flip subbed out Haywood for Blatche. OKC went small and went on a 9-0 run from which the Wizards never recovered. At that time, it probably would have gone much better to leave Haywood in there.

My question is could bringing in Blatche for Butler have worked at that time? Why must Blatche only come in for Haywood and more rarely, Jamison, but never for Butler? Butler might have had a strong game, but he had the turnover at that time the sub was made and the Thunder went on the run (again, from box and recap info--I didn't watch).

The argument about keeping his best players in the game should be prefaced by saying he sent one of his best players to the bench from the start. Blatche can have a better effect on the outcome of the game than Jamison even scoring fewer points becase he's a far better defender. When a team scores 127 I would think the coach should be looking at the defense needing to improve.

Also, Flip is IMO doing a VERY STUPID THING keeping McGee on the bench. He's far too athletic to not be playing alongside Haywood and Blatche. Flip should see that Jamison can go to SF. Flip is a diappointment to me so far.

When the team gets healthier he'll have no more excuses.

[closg00]

^^^^^
Good to see that we are mostly in-agreement on our constructive criticism of Flip.

*More PT for Blatche
**No-excuse for DNP's for McGee, especially against the more athletic teams.

[dandridge 10]

^^^^^
Good to see that we are mostly in-agreement on our constructive criticism of Flip.

*More PT for Blatche
**No-excuse for DNP's for McGee, especially against the more athletic teams.

Its funny how no one made any comments about playing time for McGee last game against the Cavs. This board is so predictable when it comes to losses. If we lose, count on a host of people commenting how different the outcome would have been if Flip played so and so more minutes. But, if we win, Flip's rotations were perfect.

[LyricalRico]

^^^^^
Good to see that we are mostly in-agreement on our constructive criticism of Flip.

*More PT for Blatche
**No-excuse for DNP's for McGee, especially against the more athletic teams.

The only way either of those can happen is if Jamison plays SF. Maybe what Flip has tried in camp/preseason/practice has shown that it's not a good idea. We're assuming that we'd be adding additional contributions from Blatche/McGee on top of what Jamison is already doing. But if Jamison is demonstrably less effective at SF, we might actually be looking at a net negative.

I agree that I'd like to see them try it for a stretch of games but there's always the possibility that it doesn't work and what I'm saying is that Flip may already know that.

[ErikChowbay023]

I think Flip got all the matchups wrong last night...

There were plenty of times in the first half where Jamison ended up guarding Durant on the perimeter, and then in the second half, a hurt Miller was guarding him...In all honesty, Blatche or Stevenson should have gotten more minutes last night, because are problems last night weren't offense it was Durant getting to the basket, the free throw line and the interior of are defense all night and thats what lost us the game....

PS Gilbert needs to be more aggressive, he got to the basket at will last night.

[ErikChowbay023]

Coach Flip Saunders rarely likes to criticize his players after losses, offering explanations for their poor performances. But he let 'er rip after this game, blasting his team for surrendering a season-high 127 points and allowing the Thunder to shoot better than 50 percent from the floor and beyond the three-point line.

"You score [108] points, you should win," Saunders said. "We didn't defend."

Saunders said that every time his coaching staff focuses on one weakness, the team forgets everything else that it has learned. After training camp, the team focused on rebounding and became a better rebounding team. They focused on defense and became a better defensive team through the first 10 games. But the past few practices, the Wizards tried to address their offensive woes, then decided not to play defense against the young and exciting Thunder. So much for that carryover from the big win against the Cavaliers.

"We focused on offense and we forgot all of our defensive concepts," Saunders said. "We have not evolved to be a total team, where we can grasp everything."

When asked if he should expect more from a veteran team, Saunders said, "You hope so, but they haven't shown any ability to carry over. That's what most disappointing. They scored, we came to our bench worried about our offense."

[Tyrone Messby]

"When asked if he should expect more from a veteran team, Saunders said, "You hope so, but they haven't shown any ability to carry over. That's what most disappointing. They scored, we came to our bench worried about our offense."

Mental midgets.

[cdouglas]

I think its WRONG not to give Blatche more minutes. Jamison returns and Blatche is seeing less minutes and I don't think he should substitue as a center. He should have more minutes at the PF than Jamison because of his defense. When Blatche plays PF switch Jamison to SF.

Arenas Boyd
Mike Caron
Caron Jamison
Jamison Blatche
Haywood McGee/Oberto

[Shanghai Kid]

I blame Flip for some things, but anybody actually watching the games can see it's the players who are making stupid decisions, taking bad shots and turning it over. And it's not just one guy. Last night I saw Butler, Blatche, and Gilbert all take terrible shots. It's almost the team identiy right now to take bad shots and turn the ball over.

The truth is, the Wizards right now don't seem to have a high enough basketball IQ to sustain good play through 4 quarters. In some aspects I kind of miss Antonio Daniels as far as slowing downs and making good decisions with the ball.

It's not a good sign when a veteran team doesn't have good b-ball IQ. OKL looked like the veteran team and we looked like rookies.

I see Mike Miller maybe being the only player out there who consistently makes good decisions. I have not seen Miller do anything questionable from shots to passes. Mentally, he's a men amongst boys out there. He's playing chess, the rest of our roster is still doing checkers.

Gilbert is thinking way too much out there. He's passing up open shots and than when he commits that "oh it's my time to score" he creates a difficult shot for himself. It feels like he's basically an SG out of college who in his rookie season has been told to controll an entire NBA offense as a point guard. It looks awkward and unnatural. Somebody said he's missing 'it', I think "it" is the confidence that Gil no longer has when he pulls up for a shot or drives to a hoop. Hopefully it will get better.

Caron has lost his midrange game. I don't know how it happened. I used to be so confident whenever he would shoot a stand still jumper. But it's left him. It ALWAYS hits off the side of the rim now. He also looks very awkward in this offense. We need the Caron from two years ago back. Now he's become too much of a gunner. He's killed our momentum in almost half our games now with a forced shot or turnover.

Honestly, Antawn Jamison has become CLEARLY our best player. I say that not because he's so great but because you know what your going to get out of him every night. Caron and Gilbert have become super unreliable. I honestly can't say that either of them are even All-Stars anymore. Jamison is still playing like an All-Star.

This is only going to work when Gilbert and Caron are both playing good. The league is better to a point where the only way the Wizards could be really good is if Caron/Gilbert/Jamison started having career seasons.

[closg00]

^^^^^
Good to see that we are mostly in-agreement on our constructive criticism of Flip.

*More PT for Blatche
**No-excuse for DNP's for McGee, especially against the more athletic teams.

Its funny how no one made any comments about playing time for McGee last game against the Cavs. This board is so predictable when it comes to losses. If we lose, count on a host of people commenting how different the outcome would have been if Flip played so and so more minutes. But, if we win, Flip's rotations were perfect.

It depends on how-often you want the hear the "play McGee" drum-beat. Without posting it every game, it should be a given that McGee (in most cases) should be playing at-least 5 min per night, not a lot to expect given he was a first-round draft pick and could possibly be our starting Center next year.
How can we expect McGee to contribute in the playoffs where you need to use your bench more if he is a DNP every night?

[LyricalRico]

It's not a good sign when a veteran team doesn't have good b-ball IQ. OKL looked like the veteran team and we looked like rookies.

I see Mike Miller maybe being the only player out there who consistently makes good decisions. I have not seen Miller do anything questionable from shots to passes. Mentally, he's a men amongst boys out there. He's playing chess, the rest of our roster is still doing checkers.

Great point. And what's the difference between Miller and the rest of the team? He wasn't coached by EJ for 5 years. It's going to take a while for all of the ingrained stupidity of the EJ years to be uprooted and then for a new culture to grow in it's place. We can't forget that.

See, this is exactly the reason why so many of us wanted EJ gone several years ago. Anytime you change regimes, the first year is a transition year. Maybe you don't completely throw the season away, but you temper expectations because change takes time. We're experiencing that right now.

The bottom line is nobody should be expecting an overnight success. But as the season goes on we'll get to see who can make the transition and who can't. That in turn tells EG what moves he still needs to make, either at the deadline or next summer. Next season is really when we'll be able to truly judge Flip IMO. I'm also waiting until then to potentially change my mind about Grunfeld.

[NoVaO]

Great point. And what's the difference between Miller and the rest of the team? He wasn't coached by EJ for 5 years. It's going to take a while for all of the ingrained stupidity of the EJ years to be uprooted and then for a new culture to grow in it's place. We can't forget that.

This is really faulty logic on your part and your judgement is clouded by your hate of EJ. Butler and Arenas (when healthy) were both terrific, All Star caliber players under EJ. In fact, Butler's performance in EJ's system is completely above and beyond what he's done in every other system he's played in.

The last time this team was healthy was 05-06. We only went 42-40, but we had a point-differential spread of a 46 win team, which is where we expect this team to be when fully healthy. We were then one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference the following year until injuries started hitting us. So the EJ thing holds little weight with me because we've seen his teams with lesser overall talent do pretty well.

However, I do agree there needs to be some time for this team to establish some chemistry as well as allow Arenas to get back his feel for the game where he's reacting on instinct instead of overthinking things.

But they need to step up their game in other areas when their shots aren't aren't falling. Where this team is mentally weak is when their shots aren't falling, they let other areas of their game suffer.

[LyricalRico]

The last time this team was healthy was 05-06. We only went 42-40, but we had a point-differential spread of a 46 win team, which is where we expect this team to be when fully healthy. We were then one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference the following year until injuries started hitting us. So the EJ thing holds little weight with me because we've seen his teams with lesser overall talent do pretty well.

Ah, so you're admitting that the team under EJ underachieved (by the stats you quoted they should have won 46 but only won 42). So they had to talent to win more but they didn't. Why? Because they blew games by making bad plays and taking poor shots at critical times. Check out the Philly board sometime and read all the posts about how their team got soft and stupid overnight as soon as EJ showed up.

Take the residual EJ effect and add the usual mistakes guys make when adjusting to a new system and you get what we have now. Over the course of the year I'm betting most of the guys get over it and get some momentum going into the playoffs. The rest will be traded and we'll move on to a bright future.

[NoVaO]

Ah, so you're admitting that the team under EJ underachieved (by the stats you quoted they should have won 46 but only won 42). So they had to talent to win more but they didn't. Why? Because they blew games by making bad plays and taking poor shots at critical times. Check out the Philly board sometime and read all the posts about how their team got soft and stupid overnight as soon as EJ showed up.

Ahhh, no. Because there were other years where we better than our Pythagorean record would indicate. You can't draw a conclusion one way or another. Plus, we were one of the best teams in the East before injuries started the following year.

I don't really care what Philly fans on a message board say. They aren't playing well. Coaches always get the majority of the blame when teams lose. I've seen enough of EJ to know what he does and doesn't do well as a coach. He's an average, maybe a little bit better than average coach. The reality is that players are what ultimately wins and loses games. Coaches have an effect, but the impact isn't as big as people think, especially for coaches that are not considered elite level.

There are many legitimate criticisms of EJ. I just hate when one has to twist every little thing into something that supports their view point even when they end up contradicting themselves in the end. I am absolutely positive if I tried to make a case that EJ was a great coach because the team performed well in close games and overperformed their Pythagorean record, you would say it was mainly because of Arenas and it had little to do with what EJ did.

Can I ask you how the team put up 45 wins in 04/05 despite a Pythagorean record of 40-42? How did the team win 43 games in 07/08 despite a Pythagorean record of 40-42 and no Gilbert Arenas? Because both of those seasons fly in the face of the criticism you offer in the quote above. I'm curious how you will spin your answer into something that will give EJ as little credit as possible.

Take the residual EJ effect and add the usual mistakes guys make when adjusting to a new system and you get what we have now. Over the course of the year I'm betting most of the guys get over it and get some momentum going into the playoffs. The rest will be traded and we'll move on to a bright future.

Ya know, nobody was complaining about the system in preseason or after the Dallas win. In fact, everybody was saying how much simpler it was. Then the excuses start pouring out after some early season struggles.

There is an adjustment, I agree. And I do think they'll eventually get their act together. But I think our current problems have a lot more to do with the fact that this team hasn't played together in more than 2+years and Arenas needing to adjust after two years off from basketball rather than getting EJ out of everybody's mind set.