Moose's Big Boards

Moderators: Marcus, Duke4life831

User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Moose's Big Boards 

Post#1 » by The Moose » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am

Just want to track my past and future performances, gaps indicate jumps in quality

2021:
1. Cade Cunningham
2. Evan Mobley

3. Jalen Green
4. Moses Moody
5. Franz Wagner
6. Scottie Barnes

7. Jalen Suggs
8. Shariffe Cooper
9. Alperen Sengun
10. Jaden Springer


2022:
1. Paolo Banchero

2. Chet Holmgren

3a. Jabari Smith
3b. Jaden Ivey

5. Dyson Daniels
6. Jalen Duren
7. Tari Eason

8. Keegan Murray
9. Shaedon Sharpe
10. Jeremy Sochan
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#2 » by The Moose » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am

2023:
1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson


3. Cam Whitmore
4. Anthony Black

5. Jarrace Walker
6. Kyle Filipowski
7. Amen Thompson
8. Brandon Miller
9. Cason Wallace
10. Gradey Dick

getting 2019 vibes from this draft, 2 elite prospects and then a bit of a mess after that
Image
reanimator
Analyst
Posts: 3,384
And1: 1,448
Joined: Jan 31, 2014
     

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#3 » by reanimator » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:27 pm

Good board. I posed these questions in The Power's big board thread and they are applicable here too.

I assume with Black so high, you're all in on him as a scorer/shooter, at least enough to leverage his playmaking. What gives you such confident?

Jarace is a kid who was not someone I would deem as a competent perimeter shooter. Are you buying in on the 3pt%? And if not, what do you see there that makes you so high on him? I assume the defensive versatility and playmaking.
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#4 » by The Moose » Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:33 am

reanimator wrote:Good board. I posed these questions in The Power's big board thread and they are applicable here too.

I assume with Black so high, you're all in on him as a scorer/shooter, at least enough to leverage his playmaking. What gives you such confident?

Jarace is a kid who was not someone I would deem as a competent perimeter shooter. Are you buying in on the 3pt%? And if not, what do you see there that makes you so high on him? I assume the defensive versatility and playmaking.


hmm, I'm not completely in on Black as a scorer, I don't think he's a 1st or even likely 2nd option at the NBA level. I think his shooting is solid enough, its not like he's a Giddey level shooter. I like his archetype though, low usage, high feel type of guy that still impacts the game in all aspects, a bit like Dyson last year who I really liked. The only other high major freshman guards in the last decade or so that match his efficiency+ stock rates are Lonzo, Harden and Haliburton.

As for Jarace, agree on the perimeter shooting. Hard to know what his role is on offense at the next level, small ball 5 potentially?
I'm basically just all the way in on the defense and his playmaking at his size is a major bonus if he can play the 5.
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#5 » by The Moose » Sun Jan 8, 2023 2:18 am

The Moose wrote:2023:
1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson


3. Cam Whitmore
4. Anthony Black

5. Jarrace Walker
6. Kyle Filipowski
7. Amen Thompson
8. Brandon Miller
9. Cason Wallace
10. Gradey Dick

getting 2019 vibes from this draft, 2 elite prospects and then a bit of a mess after that



updating now that conference play has started

1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson


3. Cam Whitmore
4. Brandon Miller
5. Anthony Black

6. Jarrace Walker
7. Kyle Filipowski
8. Amen Thompson
9. Cason Wallace
10. Keyonte George
11. Grady Dick
12. Ausar Thompson

Miller and George trending up, still way out on GG atm
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#6 » by The Moose » Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:49 am

Bringing it out to top 17


1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson


3. Cam Whitmore
4. Brandon Miller
5. Anthony Black
6. Jarace Walker

7. Brice Sensabaugh
8. Keyonte George
9. Kyle Filipowski
10. Cason Wallace
11. Gradey Dick
12. Ausar Thompson
13. Amen Thompson
14. Jett Howard
15. Kris Murray
16. Taylor Hendricks
17. Maxwell Lewis
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#7 » by The Moose » Sat Feb 4, 2023 12:07 am

Top 20: Feb


1. Victor Wembanyama


2. Scoot Henderson



3. Brandon Miller
4. Brice Sensabaugh
5. Jarace Walker
6. Kyle Filipowski
7. Cam Whitmore
8. Ant Black
9. Gradey Dick

10. Keyonte George
11. Cason Wallace
12. Kris Murray
13. Taylor Hendricks
14. Amen Thompson
15. Jett Howard
16. GG Jackson
17. Colby Jones
18. Ausar Thompson
19. Maxwell Lewis
20. Terrence Shannon Jr
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#8 » by The Moose » Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:29 am

Going back to tiers for the moment, struggling to separate a lot of these guys

T1 (All NBA upside outs)

1. Victor Wembanyama

T2 (all star upside outs)
2. Scoot Henderson


T3 (starter+ outs)
Ant Black
Brandon Miller
Brice Sensabaugh
Jarace Walker
Kyle Filipowski
Gradey Dick
Amen Thompson
Taylor Hendricks

T4 (potential starter/rotation piece outs)
Keyonte George
Cason Wallace
Kris Murray
Cam Whitmore

T4 (potential rotation pieces outs)
Terq Smith
Dariq Whitehead
Jett Howard
GG Jackson
Colby Jones
Ausar Thompson
Brandin Podziemski
Jordan Hawkins
Trayce Jackson Davis
Terrence Shannon Jr
Noah Clowney
Dereck Lively
Zach Edey
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#9 » by The Moose » Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:45 pm

Pre-NCAA Tournament Update
1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson
3. Brandon Miller

4. Taylor Hendricks
5. Jarace Walker
6. Ant Black
7. Amen Thompson
8. Kyle Filipowski
9. Brice Sensabaugh
10. Gradey Dick

11. Cason Wallace
12. Kris Murray
13. Cam Whitmore
14. Keyonte George

15. Ausar Thompson
16. Brandin Podziemski
17. Jordan Hawkins
18. Nick Smith Jr
19. Colby Jones
20. Dereck Lively


Post NCAA Tournament + entry/returns

1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson
3. Brandon Miller

4. Taylor Hendricks
5. Jarace Walker
6. Ant Black
7. Amen Thompson
8. Brice Sensabaugh
9. Gradey Dick
10. Cason Wallace

11. Cam Whitmore
12. Kris Murray
13. Keyonte George

14. Ausar Thompson
15. Brandin Podziemski
16. Jordan Hawkins
17. Nick Smith Jr
18. Colby Jones
19. Dereck Lively
20. Jamie Jaquez Jr
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#10 » by The Moose » Wed May 17, 2023 4:49 am

Post lottery board

1. Victor Wembanyama

2. Scoot Henderson
3. Brandon Miller

4. Taylor Hendricks
5. Ant Black
6. Amen Thompson
7. Jarace Walker
8. Brice Sensabaugh
9. Gradey Dick
10. Cam Whitmore

11. Cason Wallace
12. Kris Murray
13. Ausar Thompson

14. Keyonte George
15. Brandin Podziemski
16. Jordan Hawkins
17. Nick Smith Jr
18. Colby Jones
19. Dereck Lively
20. Jamie Jaquez Jr

extremely early mock draft
1. Spurs - Victor Wembanyama
2. Hornets - Scoot Henderson
3. Blazers - Brandon Miller
4. Rockets- Amen Thompson
5. Pistons - Ant Black
6. Magic - Cam Whitmore
7. Pacers - Taylor Hendricks
8. Wizards - Ausar Thompson
9. Jazz - Gradey Dick
10. Mavs - Jarace Walker
11. Magic - Jordan Hawkins
12. Thunder - Derek Lively
13. Raptors - Cason Wallace
14. Pelicans - Keyonte George
Image
Kalamazoo317
Veteran
Posts: 2,686
And1: 1,310
Joined: Nov 23, 2018
   

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#11 » by Kalamazoo317 » Thu May 18, 2023 2:28 pm

I'm curious: why Black over Whitmore, Hendricks, and Ausar for the Pistons?
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#12 » by The Moose » Fri May 19, 2023 12:22 pm

Kalamazoo317 wrote:I'm curious: why Black over Whitmore, Hendricks, and Ausar for the Pistons?




Assuming top 4 is wemby/scoot/miller/amen in some order, I would be looking at Black/Hendricks/Walker/Ausar, and honestly could see them going with any of them.

Personally, I like lineups with multiple ball handlers, high iq/feel guys, like the direction OKC seems to be moving and I think Cade/Ivey/Black would be fun.

Not a Whitmore guy at all

Hendricks I like a lot, but I've seen very little buzz from any of guys that are plugged in that he's in true consideration.

Ausar I think would be filling a somewhat similar connective role in the lineup as Ant, but I just have more faith in Ant currently, Ausar has a few red flags that I'd be concerned about that high.

Walker I think would fit very nicely, though obviously a lot of his offense is a work in progress and his scoring upside is mostly just flashes atm. That being said Walker would probably be my second choice as of now.

Picking at 5 is a hard spot, ultimately I don't think there is a huge gap between 3-8, and it will come down to preference.
Just sort of reading between the lines, and what the current FO looks for however, I would think it will come down to Whitmore/Jarace/Black and then Thompson Twins as an outside chance.
Image
Kalamazoo317
Veteran
Posts: 2,686
And1: 1,310
Joined: Nov 23, 2018
   

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#13 » by Kalamazoo317 » Fri May 19, 2023 4:25 pm

Cool, thanks for the explanation. Do you think that Black can play the 3 or are we really hurting on size if we play Ivey, Cade, and Black together? How does Black compare to the other three there in terms of wing defense?
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#14 » by The Moose » Mon May 22, 2023 3:59 pm

Kalamazoo317 wrote:Cool, thanks for the explanation. Do you think that Black can play the 3 or are we really hurting on size if we play Ivey, Cade, and Black together? How does Black compare to the other three there in terms of wing defense?


Black would be the best wing defender of the group easily. I think he can slot in anywhere 1-3 really, though it may be slightly undersized. I think the more guys you can have like Black and Cade, the better. Ivey may be a slightly awkward fit in a trio like that if his finishing doesn't improve
Image
Kalamazoo317
Veteran
Posts: 2,686
And1: 1,310
Joined: Nov 23, 2018
   

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#15 » by Kalamazoo317 » Mon May 22, 2023 6:32 pm

The Moose wrote:
Kalamazoo317 wrote:Cool, thanks for the explanation. Do you think that Black can play the 3 or are we really hurting on size if we play Ivey, Cade, and Black together? How does Black compare to the other three there in terms of wing defense?


Black would be the best wing defender of the group easily. I think he can slot in anywhere 1-3 really, though it may be slightly undersized. I think the more guys you can have like Black and Cade, the better. Ivey may be a slightly awkward fit in a trio like that if his finishing doesn't improve


Can Black survive offensively off the ball? Or do you only maximize him offensively if he has the ball in his hands?
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#16 » by The Moose » Wed May 24, 2023 8:35 am

Kalamazoo317 wrote:
The Moose wrote:
Kalamazoo317 wrote:Cool, thanks for the explanation. Do you think that Black can play the 3 or are we really hurting on size if we play Ivey, Cade, and Black together? How does Black compare to the other three there in terms of wing defense?


Black would be the best wing defender of the group easily. I think he can slot in anywhere 1-3 really, though it may be slightly undersized. I think the more guys you can have like Black and Cade, the better. Ivey may be a slightly awkward fit in a trio like that if his finishing doesn't improve


Can Black survive offensively off the ball? Or do you only maximize him offensively if he has the ball in his hands?


You'd be relying on him being able to attack 2nd side closeouts, or as a cutter. Having non shooters off-ball can still be used to create advantages. However, yes he probably is maximised when he has the ball in his hands
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#17 » by The Moose » Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:55 pm

Some small posts about my top 10 prospects this year. These rankings factor in my own thoughts on team building for the current NBA

HOF player Tier 1

Unreal prospect

1. Victor Wembanyama

Wemby is an insane prospect, really special. Probably the best defensive prospect I have ever seen, easily rivals Kentucky AD, then throw in ridiculous movement skills and a high skill level already at a young with a 7’4 frame and you have a potential HOF player. Hard to overstate just how crazy of a prospect he is. He may be completely game changing. I suspect an Allstar in his rookie year.


Tier 2- N/A




Tier 3- potential all star

The floor general

2. Scoot Henderson

Although Scoot was a bit underwhelming this season, he still seems like a good bet to be a high level guard. He has flaws, mainly in his short stature, some defensive issues, and a still progressing jump shot. But he is a very advanced PNR handler for his age and a great athlete, though not as elite as his reputation seems to be. Seems like a safe pick to return a high level starter. There are some larger questions about how valuable his archetype is, but I think that discussion is getting a little overboard.



The ‘high floor low ceiling’ fallacy guys

3. Jarace Walker

Jarace is the guy I am highest on in comparison to the consensus rankings. He is someone that has moved up the more I watch his film. He blends together a unique combination of size/skill/co-ordination. He played a major role on an outstanding college team that usually doesn’t play freshman. This is meaningful. I think there is a little bit of a misconception regarding his offensive potential, and ultimately why I have more belief in his upside than others seem to.

There is a tendency to see guys like Walker and Hendricks as ‘high floor/low ceiling’ prospects. But these type of freshman are overlooked every year, in favour of ‘high upside’ swings, which generally means someone who is currently worse at basketball but has more ‘room’ to improve + is athletic. I think at the moment you can't get enough 6'6+ 2 way players on your team, the fact these two are already good basketball players at 19 years old shouldn't be held against them.

Firstly, regarding his offence. He seems to be categorised as a big/small ball 5 by most, but I think he will end up more as a slashing wing. You watch a player in college to know what they look like in a system but watch them in high school and you can see what else they can really do. This is even more true playing at a heavily upperclassmen contender like Houston was this season. So, jump to Jarace’s high school years.

He has a great high school pedigree, 4 seasons at IMG playing high level comp. The interesting thing about Jarace in high school is that he played almost exclusively on the perimeter, and played as a guard for his freshman and sophomore seasons. As a freshman he stepped up big in the 2019 national final against La Lumiere. In 2020, he had big moments against the stacked Montverde squad that featured Cade/Moody/Barnes/Sharpe/Houston/Nembhard.
These high school years helped sharpen his handle, footwork and skill on the perimeter. Over his final year in AAU and senior year in HS, Walker had s 48.6% eFG% on 74 OTD jump shots in the half court. He was elite as a creating wing in HS.

Coming back to his time at Houston, although he had a fairly defined role at Houston in Sampson’s system, there were plenty of flashes that give some evidence to the idea that there is a lot of untapped offensive potential here. His own team mates consider him a guard.
If we just look at his general overall offensive production, he profiles more as a wing. Over 100 drives in the half court, over 50 non-rim 2pt makes, over 30 3pt makes. He took over 100 combined dribble jumpers+floaters.

Image

Now, if Jarace can play as more of a perimeter based/slashing wing he becomes a lot more interesting offensively. This would add another dimension of versatility to his offensive game. Right off the bat, he very likely won’t have a long leash offensively. But he should be able to play as a roll man and as a DHO operator. But I think there is chance he could end up being utilised has a mid-post or even 3pt line initiator ala Siakam.

This will depend on the jump shot continuing to improve, however the flashes are absolutely there, and the propensity to take so many OTD jumpers and floaters in the NCAA is actually a positive indicator of his touch and skill for me in this regard. The elephant in the room is how poor his percentages were as a half court driver, though I think in a more spaced NBA court and continued improvement of the jumpsuit he will grow here. His overall shot profile is reminiscent of SDSU Kawhi in terms of being able to create and take OTD jumpers and floaters but not necessarily being able to make them consistently. If he is able to make this leap, his outstanding passing will become even more useful.

I think his handle and footwork for a guy his size and frame is rare







In regards to his reliance on floaters and contact aversion, this does seem like an easy fix developmentally, primarily because his physicality should actually be a strength. He has an elite frame and I think he just doesn’t really know how to maximise his body/tools yet. It’s not as if he has to rely on floaters and non rim 2’s because he is frail/skinny. This just adds another level for his offensive game to grow.

Now, it should be mentioned that a major draw for him as a prospect is that he does have a very unique profile as a 2 way prospect. Since 2008 there is only one other high major freshman to combine 12% AST rate with 5% BLK rate and a 2% STL rate with 25+ dunks

Image

Defensively Jarace is pretty special, he has outstanding defensive awareness and instincts. He seems to make very few mistakes and is adept at covering up others. He’s a great processor on this side of the ball. His hips are pretty stiff and he can struggle switching on to guards and quick wings (in comparison to someone like Hendricks), that being said he has great recovery tools that he utilised well at Houston even in situations where he was beaten off the dribble. I think he’s best suited as a roaming 4 on defence, who causes mass chaos off ball, but can still provide great 1 on 1 D.

He was in the 97th percentile on defending dribble jumpers, holding his opponent to 5/31 FG, and in the 92nd percentile guarding all field goals overall. Additionally he was in the 83rd percentile as an isolation defender allowing 4/20 fg, and 70th percentile guarding both PNR roll man and PNR handler.


Lastly just want to mention his play against strong competition.
His numbers in the 12 games (1/3 of his season) against top 50 teams were super elite.

11.2 BPM, 15% AST rate, 8.4% BLK rate, 2.7% STL rate, 78% FT, 39% 3pt.

In the last 15 seasons there has only been 7 freshman with an 11+ BPM against top 50 teams :
DeAndre Ayton, Anthony Davis , Karl-Anthony Towns, Evan Mobley, Scottie Barnes, Jalen Suggs and Marcus Smart.
All of them are top 5 picks.

Ultimately in a draft that is short on top end talent, I think Jarace presents as a potential 2 way star, with a very high floor and that pushes him into the top 3 for me.



4.Taylor Hendricks

Hendricks seems like a very solid bet to be a good rotation piece, with upside for more. Like Walker, his defense should get him on the court early on, and his size+perimeter shooting is a very solid base for a young prospect. He fits a nice modern archetype as a switchable big who can provide secondary rim protection on D, while providing great perimeter shooting. On top of this, his athleticism is good enough that he can play in the dunkers spot or as a roll man.

His offensive profile is strong, 98th percentile as a roll man, 73rd percentile as a spot up shooter, and great in transition in the 95th percentile. 58& eFG as on all catch and shoot attempts is great for a 6’10 guy. The obvious concern is the rim finishing where he was at 57% overall and just 44.7% on layups (15th percentile). I think part of this comes from a lack of touch, but he has some really bad misses for a guy his size. The shooting numbers look great, but there are also some really bad misses which isn't always a great sign for 'shooting' prospects.
His ball handling is not where it needs to be, and he just generally looks uncomfortable and awkward operating from the perimeter in most situations. That being said if he can develop at least a functional handle, he can flourish as a much more versatile shooter.


Image

He joins a small group of freshman (including Jarace) which fit this archetype

Defensively he’s a very strong rim protector, and a very strong switchable big. I don’t think his defensive awareness/iq is quite on the level of Jarace, but he absolutely should be able to be a plus defender at the NBA level.

Overall these its hard to go wrong with these two prospects, and which way a team leans may rely more on their current roster construction.


The Wings


5.Brandon Miller

A bit lower on Miller than the consensus, but there is a lot to like here. In terms of an analytical projection from his profile, he has probably one of, if not the strongest stat profiles of any of the NCAA group. He is in pretty rare company as far as freshman wings.

Only two other high major freshman 6’8 or taller shot >83% FT and >10% AST rate, Cade Cunningham and Jayson Tatum (and Cade isn’t really 6’8). So the combination of elite shooting with a decent set of secondary skills in terms of passing and size is very nice.

On the other hand, he has ghastly finishing numbers, was simply terrible around the rim for someone his size. He struggles to create separation, he has a low release point on his jumper, he defends at an average to decent level and he’s a sophomore aged freshman. On top of this, his numbers against top 50 schools plummeted.

For the season he had an 11 BPM, 58%TS, 1.5 STL rate and 48% 2pt, 38% 3pt
Against top 50 teams: 6.5 BPM, 50% TS, 1.1 STL rate and 38% 2pt, 31% 3pt

These games against top 50 teams account for half of his season. So there may be a bit of a question here as to whether he’s just an old freshman beating up on bad teams, or was it a string of bad luck games that happen to occur against strong defences.

Guys that are 6’8, great shooters that can pass and hold their own on defense should have a pretty high floor though, so I think even a low level outcome should be a starting level player.


6. Brice Sensabaugh

Brice is an incredibly good scorer, elite shooter and tough shot maker. His numbers are really off the chart this year.

1st in high major NCAA for PPP on catch and shoot jumpers (minimum 120 attempts)

25th in all NCAA for PPP on catch and shoot jumpers (min 100 attempts)

15th in high major NCAA for PPP on dribble jumpers (min 100 attempts)

23rd in PPP on all jump shots (minimum 200 attempts)

Just a ridiculous offensive output this season. A OBPM of 7.4 as a freshman is elite.
Since 2008 there has only been 12 freshman enter the draft with an OBPM of 7.4 or higher

Zion - pick 1
AD - pick 1
Ayton - pick 1
Fultz - pick 1
Beasley - pick 2
Bagley - pick 2
Russell - pick 2
Lonzo - pick 2
Kevin Love - pick 5
Trae Young - pick 5
Jamal Murray - pick 7
Lauri Markkanen - pick 7

Average draft pick = 3

This year two more have a chance to be added to this group, Brandon Miller and… Brice Sensabaugh.
Brandon Miller is expected to go picks 2-3, and Brice is currently projected to go 15-25.

He joined James Harden as the only <6’6 high major player since 2008 to have a season with 30 USG + 55% EFG

Image

You look at HM freshman guards/wings that were able to score at this efficiency and its a tiny but extremely strong list.

Image

50/40/80 freshman, only 2 guys make the list

Image

Contextually, there are issues. Sensabaugh played a lot off the bench this season, which can skew numbers. Ultimately though it's just an indication that he was able to handle a huge offensive load, and do so very efficiently.

Now, obviously there are some flaws with Brice and legitimate reasons for concern that others who are less high on him point at. He is currently a bad defender, he’s not a great athlete and he has a football build more than a basketball build. There are additional questions about how valuable he is in a scaled down role, and also where exactly do you play him, is he a guard is a forward etc. Then you have to wonder why his coach only played a scorer of this calibre so few minutes.

I personally think he ends up as a forward, and more than likely ends up guarding wings and even bigger wings where he can use his physicality. It’s worth noting that he had the highest defensive rebounding percentage of any high major freshman 6’6 or below this season, so I think it’s within the realm of possibilities that he could slide up a bit on defence.

Athletically there may be issues, in terms of getting separation as a shot creator. I think this is where is strength and footwork is going to be vital, because he’s never going to be blowing past dudes off the dribble really.

As far as scalability I think it's possible he flourishes an off ball guard, at OSU he was given the ball a lot and asked to self create or just simply catch and shoot. However he was in the 98th percentile of all NCAA players in PPP off screens, and had an 86% TS off 19 attempts of screens. It might age poorly but I think there are paths for Brice to be a legitimate high level scorer at the NBA level. His skill level, touch and footwork are just so outstanding already.


7. Cam Whitmore

I’ll say right off the bat, I’m not a huge Whitmore fan. When I watch his tape, it sometimes seems like he has no processing skills at all or that he has never been coached properly before. Too often he just looks like a bull in a china shop, who, as soon as he catches the ball is looking for an opportunity to put his head down, and just drop his shoulder and drive to the rim, with no thought of a back up plan. On top of this he has no in between game, so when he was driving, you knew he was going to take it all the way to the bucket, come hell or high water. It seemed like passing was not part of the equation. Far too often this ended with him stuck stranded, playing off 2 feet with nowhere to go except to throw something up, or try to finish through defenders.

To Cam’s credit, his way worked fairly well at the NCAA level, he shot very efficiently for a 6’6 player, nearly 60% on 2’s is outstanding, and his isolation numbers were great.

Image

My first concern is I just don’t know if this is going to work for him at the NBA level. His handle isn’t great outside of 2 dribbles, and I’m not sure its entirely feasible to play in him a heavy on ball role given just how inept he seems as a passer/playmaker for others.

My 2nd concern would be that I don’t really buy the jump shot. It’s very slow, so slow in fact that Synergy considers 71% of his jump shots are guarded. That ratio of contested/uncontested puts him in the 95th percentile. Of course, in the NBA the margins are even smaller and defenders are longer and more athletic, this is problematic for an average shooter with such a slow release. The percentage and volume were good, but he wasn’t a strong shooter prior to the NCAA and the FT % is pretty underwhelming for a guard.

The third concern would be the terrible AST rate, its just usually a really bad sign in prospects.

Image

The list of non center lottery picks with single digit AST numbers. Keep in mind Whitmore’s 6.4% AST rate would actually be near the bottom of this list.

Defensively he’s very hit and miss. The steal rate is impressive, but the eye test is less so. He falls asleep off ball a lot and gets lost. However on ball, he should be able to hold his own based off his physical strength, quick hands and elite athleticism. I think he should be able to be a neutral defender at the NBA level considering his tools.

HOWEVER, all of this being said, I think there are some strong outcomes for him. Guys like this don't grow on trees.Athletic freaks who are physically strong with actual perimeter skill are a pretty safe bet for value. He’s very young which should be beneficial and he has similarities to Jaylen Brown as a very strong athlete with some nice flashes of skill and scoring. I think he may end up going something along the lines of Miles Bridges, as a play finisher with a fairly simple role, but a role where you can get the most out of his athletic tools and finishing ability. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him around 20ppg at some point.

Tier 4 - High level impact

The upside defensive guards

8. Ant black

Ant is one of my favourite prospects in the class, primarily because of how well he sees and reads the game. Very smart player. Combine his feel/iq on offense with strong defense + his size and you have a very strong guard prospect. His major strength outside of playmaking right now is his ability to get to the rim and get to the line.

Image

There just aren’t a lot of freshman guards in the same class in this regard. Ant currently does basically everything at a high level, except for one thing, which is shooting. My only hesitation with Ant, is in fact his own hesitation. At times he seems hesitant to shoot or look for his own shot, and if he is going to play as high usage point guard, this can make things difficult.
In 21/36 games for the season, he played 30+ minutes while taking 10 or less shots. This is a really low mark for a top 10 pick guard. Its like freshman Halliburton level. Now, some of this can be explained by games where Ant had a lot of free throw attempts, but even just on the eye test, there are too many plays where he just isn’t looking like a threat to score at all.
Part of his hesitation to shoot likely comes from the fact that he’s not a very good shooter, which is understandable. The hope is that the jumper improves at least to an average level. In that case he becomes a jumbo creator who is great on D.

9. Cason Wallace

Cason seems like a really easy pick as a top ten type of guard. He should bring some level of shooting + elite D. He, like Ant Black, bring a bit of everything you want in a modern non-star guard.

Image

This is essentially my ideal archetype for a non star guard in the current NBA. Teams are consistently spending huge paychecks on guards like Jordan Poole and Tyler Herro, but these types of 3+D guards just seem like far better value. Cason is so close to Jrue that comp is too easy to make, but its hard to see Wallace failing to find a role in the NBA.
Over 40% OTD jumpers this year, good catch and shoot numbers, 70th percentile as a PnR handler. Throw in the fact Kentucky guards seem to show a lot more in the NBA, yeah he’s an easy top 10 guy.

10. Amen Thompson

Honestly don’t know where to put him. Probably the most ridiculous mover I can remember seeing on a basketball court, he does things on drives I just haven’t seen before. He really is in the elite of the elite in terms of functional athleticism. It’s like he can move in all dimensions without any friction. On top of this he has shown some solid playmaking skills and the ability to play point guard to a high standard in a bad comp. All of this in a 6’6 frame with a 7’0 wingspan.

However, pretty much anything else after that is entirely theoretical. He is a terrible jump shooter with a completely broken looking shot. I would think he’s several years away from a serviceable shot. He looks good on defence in spurts but a lot of that comes from being a freak athlete playing against younger less developed kids. He should be able to be a good defender at the NBA given his tools, but there is a lot that goes into being a truly elite defender in the NBA.
I’m not sure he ends up being a point guard in the NBA, and may end up more as a wing.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to be the team taking a chance on either of the Twins in the top 5, but I can see Amen having some outcomes where things come together for him and he is able to blend his size/athleticism/feel into an impact player



Tier 5- Rotation

11. Grady Dick
12. Derrick Lively
13. Ausar Thompson
14. Leonard Miller

Other guys I like (no particular order)
Brandin Podziemski, Colby Jones, Whitehead, Jacquez, Cissoko, Phillips, Strawther, TJD
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#18 » by The Moose » Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:10 am

Final top 10

1. Victor Wembanyama
2. Scoot Henderson
3. Jarace Walker
4. Taylor Hendricks
5. Brandon Miller
6. Brice Sensabaugh
7. Ant Black
8. Amen Thompson
9. Cason Wallace
10. Cam Whitmore

next 5 in no order

Gradey Dick, Ausar Thompson, Leonard Miller, Derrick Lively, Brandin Podziemski,

next 5 in no order

Bilal Coulibaly, Jaime Jacquez, TJD, Kobe Bufkin, Dariq Whitehead
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#19 » by The Moose » Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:02 am

early 2024 board:

Tier 1 (HOF) - N/A

Tier 2 (Future All NBA) - N/A

Tier 3 (All star potential):

1. Ron Holland
2. Nikola Topic

Tier 4 (High impact starters):

3. Kyle Filipowski
4. Reed Sheppard
5. Rob Dillingham

Tier 5 (solid rotation + role players): Not in order

Alexandre Sarr
Matas Buzelis
Cody Williams
Zaccharie Risacher
Donovan Clingan
Jonathan Mogbo
Ja’Kobe Walter
Zach Edey
DaRon Holmes II

Next Up:
Johnny Furphy, Kel’el Ware, Tyler Smith
Image
User avatar
The Moose
General Manager
Posts: 9,150
And1: 5,119
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Location: Australia
 

Re: Moose's Big Boards 

Post#20 » by The Moose » Fri Apr 5, 2024 3:16 pm

pre march madness board

Tier 1 - [Superstar prospect]

Tier 2 - [All NBA prospect]

Tier 3 - [All star potential prospect]
1. Nikola Topic
2. Reed Sheppard
3. Donovan Clingan

Tier 4 - [starters/impact players]
4. Ron Holland
5. Kyle Filipowski
6. Zach Edey
7. Devin Carter
8. Collin Murray-Boyles (probably will be in 2025 class though)
9. Rob Dillingham
10. Dalton Knecht

Tier 5 - [rotation guys/guys that stick around the league] not ordered yet but will be trimmed down
Alex Sarr
Stephon Castle
Da’Ron Holmes
Matas Buzelis
Jared McCain
Cody Williams
Zac Risacher
Johnny Furphy
Hansen Yang
Kel’el Ware
Tyler Kolek
Ryan Dunn
Jonathan Mogbo
Isaiah Collier
Jamal Shead
Ja'Kobe Walter


pre final four update:

Tier 1 - [Superstar prospect]

Tier 2 - [All NBA prospect]

Tier 3 - [All star potential prospect]
1. Donovan Clingan
2. Zach Edey

Tier 3.5 - [fringe All star potential prospect]
3. Nikola Topic
4. Reed Sheppard

Tier 4 - [starters/impact players]
5. Jared McCain
6. Ron Holland
7. Devin Carter
8. Kyle Filipowksi
9. DaRon Holmes II


Tier 5 - [rotation guys/guys that stick around the league] not ordered yet but will be trimmed down
10. Tyler Smith
11. Dalton Knecht
12. Alex Sarr
13. Rob Dillingham
14. Stephon Castle
15. Zaccharie Risacher
16. Johnny Furphy
17. Cody Williams
18. Matas Buzelis
19. Isaiah Collier
20. Kel’el Ware

Next Up:

Shead
Walter
Mogbo

Waiting for decision: CMB, Yang (both lotto if declared)
Image

Return to Mock Drafts