Knicks' Players Don't Like Triangle, Hope To Run Different System

[thinktellectual]

The Knicks feel like other teams know what they are going to run and where they're going on the court.

Unlike that time when Melo played ISO all the time.
That was taking teams by surprise

[BigLos2010]

Well if you can't see what I'm talking about then you're obviously not watching today's NBA because your opinion doesn't meet reality.

The lack of handchecking makes ANY offense easier to incorportate not just iso ball. But despite your argument, teams are playing less iso-ball than ever before. Why is that? Could it be because advanced metrics point to isolations as one of the least efficient plays in the NBA. Hmm.

I was not stating my opinion I was stating facts.You said that the triangle no longer works because " the new hand checking rules have made it an archaic offense now." This is completely false as I have already mentioned that hand-checking has made playing defense harder and that's about it. I just had to call you out on it because you have no idea what you are talking about and no one else seemed to notice. Also, why are you talking about iso-ball ? Iso-ball is not an offense , it's a play you call in certain situations. The triangle offense is not iso-ball...you are just talking nonsense.

You need to find a dictionary and look up the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And yes, the triangle is archaic because the handchecking rules have made other offenses much far more efficient and better options to run. That's what I wrote and most NBA coaches obviously agree with me. (Knicks and Lakers aside)

I should also add that the facts, as in the advanced stats on each type of offensive possession, actually do support that iso based offense are inefficent and therefore archaic. If you don't agree based on your opinion that's fine but you don't actually have much in the way of facts to back that opinion up. Sorry.

The Triangle Offense has won two of the last six NBA championships, including a win over Tom Thibadeau's defense as played by the Boston Celtics. I agree that other offenses might be more efficient in today's environment, but the Triangle is far from obsolete.

[RayClayMatthews]

that's exactly the right way

bring in brooke lopez and joe johnson. 2 guys that would flourish in the system.

Are you talking about that Joe Johnson that was/is called ISO-Joe ?

yup. the one that is a hell of a shooter and is a big guard like the ones that flourish in the triangle?

I would rather have Lopez AND JJ on my team over Melo if I am running the triangle

[RayClayMatthews]

Lance and Melo to the Nets please. What a show that would be.

[Rhythm043]

I was not stating my opinion I was stating facts.You said that the triangle no longer works because " the new hand checking rules have made it an archaic offense now." This is completely false as I have already mentioned that hand-checking has made playing defense harder and that's about it. I just had to call you out on it because you have no idea what you are talking about and no one else seemed to notice. Also, why are you talking about iso-ball ? Iso-ball is not an offense , it's a play you call in certain situations. The triangle offense is not iso-ball...you are just talking nonsense.

You need to find a dictionary and look up the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And yes, the triangle is archaic because the handchecking rules have made other offenses much far more efficient and better options to run. That's what I wrote and most NBA coaches obviously agree with me. (Knicks and Lakers aside)

I should also add that the facts, as in the advanced stats on each type of offensive possession, actually do support that iso based offense are inefficent and therefore archaic. If you don't agree based on your opinion that's fine but you don't actually have much in the way of facts to back that opinion up. Sorry.

The Triangle Offense has won two of the last six NBA championships, including a win over Tom Thibadeau's defense as played by the Boston Celtics. I agree that other offenses might be more efficient in today's environment, but the Triangle is far from obsolete.

I agree. The Knicks are just a crap team with selfish players. Anthony, Smith, hardaway, shumpert. There was no way the triangle was going to work with that collection of junk. Of course the triangle still works and im sure if you gave Kobe some actual talent to play with the Lakers would be just fine running that offense even with him at 36 but you do need players with some sort of brains to do it well. Still too much hate going Kobe's way this year. There is not one other decent player on his team.

[The_Hater]

I was not stating my opinion I was stating facts.You said that the triangle no longer works because " the new hand checking rules have made it an archaic offense now." This is completely false as I have already mentioned that hand-checking has made playing defense harder and that's about it. I just had to call you out on it because you have no idea what you are talking about and no one else seemed to notice. Also, why are you talking about iso-ball ? Iso-ball is not an offense , it's a play you call in certain situations. The triangle offense is not iso-ball...you are just talking nonsense.

You need to find a dictionary and look up the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And yes, the triangle is archaic because the handchecking rules have made other offenses much far more efficient and better options to run. That's what I wrote and most NBA coaches obviously agree with me. (Knicks and Lakers aside)

I should also add that the facts, as in the advanced stats on each type of offensive possession, actually do support that iso based offense are inefficent and therefore archaic. If you don't agree based on your opinion that's fine but you don't actually have much in the way of facts to back that opinion up. Sorry.

The Triangle Offense has won two of the last six NBA championships, including a win over Tom Thibadeau's defense as played by the Boston Celtics. I agree that other offenses might be more efficient in today's environment, but the Triangle is far from obsolete.

And the last 4 NBA champions did not.

And yes, the NBA game has changed a ton since 2008-10 making the triangle somewhat obsolete in 2014. The biggest change is that teams are starting to trust and rely on advanced metrics which have geared coaching offenses towards the pick and roll in order to bend defenses and shooting more 3's, especially corner 3's. At the same time they've figured out that the long 2 pointer, the shot the triangle creates best, is the lowest efficiency shot in bball and the isolation play is also a lower efficiency play.

BTW, the 2009-10 Lakers ranked only 11th in the NBA in offense despite having Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Artest and Odom. So we'd actually need to go back to their 2008-09 team to see the last time the Triangle produced a top 10 offense.

Like I said previously, some teams and coaches were slow to adjust to these changes but now most have caught on. I'm just surprised that Phil is still hanging on like he is.

[thinktellectual]

bring in brooke lopez and joe johnson. 2 guys that would flourish in the system.

Are you talking about that Joe Johnson that was/is called ISO-Joe ?

yup. the one that is a hell of a shooter and is a big guard like the ones that flourish in the triangle?

I would rather have Lopez AND JJ on my team over Melo if I am running the triangle

JJ is LIKE the G that flourished in the triangle.
The key word is "LIKE".
Because he played/plays so much ISO, that I think it would be hard to get him to move the ball.
And if you don't move the ball, the triangle is dead.

That's why Melo hates it, cause he's a ball hogging ball stopping chucker.

[RayClayMatthews]

Are you talking about that Joe Johnson that was/is called ISO-Joe ?

yup. the one that is a hell of a shooter and is a big guard like the ones that flourish in the triangle?

I would rather have Lopez AND JJ on my team over Melo if I am running the triangle

JJ is LIKE the G that flourished in the triangle.
The key word is "LIKE".
Because he played/plays so much ISO, that I think it would be hard to get him to move the ball.
And if you don't move the ball, the triangle is dead.

That's why Melo hates it, cause he's a ball hogging ball stopping chucker.

I know the name but I think Joe was still a situational scorer like that, where I have never seen him at Melo's level.

[PDXKnight]

For the record, the Knicks had the leagues 3rd most efficient offense 2 yrs ago, 11th last season and rank 21st so far this year. The personel hasn't changed much over that period but the offensive system and the coach has and the team slipped from a good-great offense to a fairly bad one.

The team defense has stunk all 3 seasons so that's been fairly consistent problem.

The talent hasn't really been there at any point. Outside of melo and chandler (2 seasons before this on) the Knicks haven't had many start worthy players.

[BigLos2010]

You need to find a dictionary and look up the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And yes, the triangle is archaic because the handchecking rules have made other offenses much far more efficient and better options to run. That's what I wrote and most NBA coaches obviously agree with me. (Knicks and Lakers aside)

I should also add that the facts, as in the advanced stats on each type of offensive possession, actually do support that iso based offense are inefficent and therefore archaic. If you don't agree based on your opinion that's fine but you don't actually have much in the way of facts to back that opinion up. Sorry.

The Triangle Offense has won two of the last six NBA championships, including a win over Tom Thibadeau's defense as played by the Boston Celtics. I agree that other offenses might be more efficient in today's environment, but the Triangle is far from obsolete.

And the last 4 NBA champions did not.

And yes, the NBA game has changed a ton since 2008-10 making the triangle somewhat obsolete in 2014. The biggest change is that teams are starting to trust and rely on advanced metrics which have geared coaching offenses towards the pick and roll in order to bend defenses and shooting more 3's, especially corner 3's. At the same time they've figured out that the long 2 pointer, the shot the triangle creates best, is the lowest efficiency shot in bball and the isolation play is also a lower efficiency play.

BTW, the 2009-10 Lakers ranked only 11th in the NBA in offense despite having Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Artest and Odom. So we'd actually need to go back to their 2008-09 team to see the last time the Triangle produced a top 10 offense.

Like I said previously, some teams and coaches were slow to adjust to these changes but now most have caught on. I'm just surprised that Phil is still hanging on like he is.

Just a thought: If every team is playing the same defense and a very similar offense everyone is gonna have this thing figured out in the next two years or so. The next shift will be back to offenses that focus on long two's, because those shots are available (See: Trailblazers, Portland; Aldridge, LaMarcus). Excellent mid-range jumpshooting is a Thibs' killer.

[The_Hater]

Just a thought: If every team is playing the same defense and a very similar offense everyone is gonna have this thing figured out in the next two years or so. The next shift will be back to offenses that focus on long two's, because those shots are available (See: Trailblazers, Portland; Aldridge, LaMarcus). Excellent mid-range jumpshooting is a Thibs' killer.

You definitely could be right but at this point we still seem to see an awful lot of open 3 pointers in a typical NBA game. It's going to take an enormous shift in the percentages for a 20 foot 2-pointer to start becoming as efficient as a 23 foot 3-pointer or even a 27 foot 3-pointer. Dare I say impossible?