Some Guy Ranked Us Last In...

[Walt Cronkite]

We da worse, mayne... we deeeed it.

[captaincrunk]

We da worse, mayne... we deeeed it.

...

[daschysta]

Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

[Stun704]

Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

The pacers at best will become the Atlanta Hawks, a perennial 2nd round punching bag, if your happy for that, then more power to you, Charlotte however has the chance to draft a franchise player in the deepest draft since '03, and already has 1 A prospect(Biyombo) 3 B's(Gerald Henderson, Kemba Walker, Tyrus Thomas) and 1 C' prospects( DJ Augustin) - probably not apart of our long term future. Pacers have a whole bunch of B-C range prospects, and have virtually no chance to land a A+ prospect through draft position in the near future because they'll be too good for a high pick

[daschysta]

Detroit is in a far worse position, IMO. Also teams like Milwaukee, Indiana, LA Clippers, etc. who have absolutely no shot to advance in the playoffs (or even make them) and also have no shot to attract or draft a star.

How can you say teams like Indiana and the Clippers have absolutely no shot to advance or make the playoffs or attract a star, yet charlotte does?

The Clippers have a guy that legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 or so player in the NBA in Blake Griffin, a top shooting guard prospect/ already borderline all-star player and young to boot in Eric Gordon. Tons of youth oozing with talent between Aminu, Deandre jordan, and eric bledsoe, and even guys like mo williams who would contend for the title of the cats' best player. If not for their inept management they would probably be up with OKC as brightest future in the NBA, plus that little thing called the LA market.

The Pacers are also very young, and made the playoffs starting a rookie player, two second year players and a third year player. Hibbert has alot of potential, and has shown flashes of ability to be an elite center before long, george also has a ton of potential, especially on defense. Their record last year was deceptive, as they were much improved under (now no longer interim) coach frank vogel. They also recently acquired one of teh best sixth men in the league in george hill. Hill, Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, Mcroberts, Rush and stephenson are all below 25 years old and have room to greatly improve. Danny Granger is similar in level to what wallace was and is very, very solid. Add to this the fact that they have the second most cap room in the entire NBA at a time when capspace may well become even more valuable after a new CBA... and it's not hard to see why the pacers are seen as having one of the brightest futures, and yes, have the opportunity to advance in the playoffs in the future.. Even if they sign just a guy like nene they still have more room to round out what is already a playoff roster that gave the the leagues top regular season team a ton of trouble in the playoffs. They are deep and flexible and talented, there is a reason most credible lists of future power rankings have them top ten, like ESPN does (ranked 7th). The pacers are nothing like Milwaukee or Charlotte were in the years when they made the playoffs. Milwaukee and the cats' were both veteran squads without the cap flexibility or upside that the pacers have. The pacers aren't relying on guys like tim thomas, boris diaw and the like to do much heavy lifting. Being a lower playoff seed is a GOOD thing when you have tons of upside and cap space, i'd agree about the pacers had they made the playoffs when their core was troy murphy, granger, and mike dunleavey, but that isn't today's pacers, and they are in a much better spot than charlotte for the forseeable future, and will probably be top 8ish or so on this list when it gets that far as well. They could screw the pooch and waste cap space, some players could just not improve inexplicably, but from a financial perspective, and talent perspective, the pacers are in a very good spot moving forward, and after the hell of our "soft rebuild" post JO, Artest, Jackson etc.... it feels good to finally say.

The pacers at best will become the Atlanta Hawks, a perennial 2nd round punching bag, if your happy for that, then more power to you, Charlotte however has the chance to draft a franchise player in the deepest draft since '03, and already has 1 A prospect(Biyombo) 3 B's(Gerald Henderson, Kemba Walker, Tyrus Thomas) and 1 C' prospects( DJ Augustin) - probably not apart of our long term future. Pacers have a whole bunch of B-C range prospects, and have virtually no chance to land a A+ prospect through draft position in the near future because they'll be too good for a high pick

Hey, I love your new choice in GM, he's a smart guy who knows how to build a team, and you guys will have a chance to draft a difference maker. You guys needed to rebuild, and didn't wait too long to do it, personally I would have been happy bottoming out during the dunleavy era, but I think we've got enough flexibility and talent to be a bit better than you give us credit for. I believe we can become better than a second round punching bag, but even so my point stands that the pacers will be capable of advancing further than they currently have.

I think you give a bit less credit to some of our young players than maybe they deserve. I don't see how Biyombo is an A level prospect while Paul George isn't, most experts have conceded that Paul George has always had all-star potential, and he already shows flashes of being an elite perimeter defender at 3 positions, and played lock down D on the league MVP in the playoffs who happens to be quite quick himself. A multitude of knowledeable people believe george to have star potential, and i'm one of them. Biyombo has all kinds of defensive potential, but will he be able to overcome how raw he is offensively and not be a offensive liability? Both george and biyombo have incredible tools, but George has shown potential both offensively and defensively, if you're going to label Biyombo and "A level prospect" then so is Paul George, who is typically slotted as a top 5 pick in most redrafts in a year much stronger than Biyombo's. Pacers fans feel that we got the value of a top pick at number 11, similar to when we got Danny Granger at number 17.

I like Henderson alot, he's tough and plays good defense and has a great work ethic, he'll be an above average starter, but i'd have to Rank Roy Hibbert above him as a prospect. Roy is still developing, but he's shown extended periods of play where he's looked like a top center in the NBA, losing so much weight hurt him in teh long run last year, since as he lost more weight as teh season went on it became difficult for him to keep post position, but he was a top runner for MIP early, and hibbert is currently back to 275, all of it muscle, good luck pushing THAT around in the post. Roy Hibbert could easily be a 16/17-9/10 center next year with 3 assists and 2 blocks, which in this league of watered down big men qualifies as elite. Given the uniqueness of roy's skillset i'd say he's every bit as valuable a prospect as henderson, and probably more so. He's more "a-ish" himself as a center. Big men do take longer to develop after all.

Walker and Collison are pretty similar as prospects. I happen to like Walkers game a bit more, but i'm not sure his rookie season is as good as collison's was in New Orleans, though it might be. If collison can return to that form after a bit of a sophomore slump he'll be great, JOB's offense kills point guards after all, his job was literally to pass the ball with 22 seconds left on the shot clock and play off the ball, which is death for a pick and roll point guard like collison. I'd agree that they are both "b-level prospects", meaning both can be above average starters, possibly very good starters if everything goes right.

Problem with Augustin is that he's redundant with walker on the team, and that half decent point guards (like augustin is) aren't really valuable at all as trade chips since good point guards are the most abundant commodity in the NBA today. Seemingly every team has a decent youngish starting point guard or are set with a very good vet.

Hansbrough would have to qualify as a B-level prospect too by your metric. The guy DID average 15 and 7 post all-star break, once he got a chance to start in what was basically his rookie season. Even if he just slightly improves he projects to be a pretty decent starter, or dynamite bench player. You're stretching it listing Tyrus Thomas as a "prospect" 5 years into his NBA career. He's shown flashes of course, and is hyper athletic, but i'm not sure I exactly expect him to just "get it" one day and become the player his raw athletic ability suggests he can be. He's much more stromile swift at this time than anything more 5 years into the league.

Stephenson also has loads of skill, but i'm not counting on him, I wouldn't mention him if larry bird wasn't constantly prasing him (even calling him the best player on the team a few times) and he is a guy that gets to see him every day in practice.

George hill then once again by your metric is also a B-level prospect. He's only been in the league 3 years, and has constantly had to defer to san antonio's future hall of famers. When he's been called on to start he's averaged about 16 ppg throughout his career, and he's been san antonio's best wing defender ever since bowen retired. Poppovich has gone on record stating that the kid can do alot more offensively in addition to his defense, and he'll have that chance in indiana, without any sacred vets to defer to. His experience as a key piece of a perrenially contending team will be very valuable to indy as well as his nearly elite perimeter D.

Granger himself is about a B+/ A- minus player, and as a shooter will benefit from some of the heat being taken off of him offensively.

On top of this the Pacers have basically the best cap situation in the entire NBA, and if the lockout takes away the season will be in the running for not only the coveted 2012 players but also the crop from this year, whose price will be run down by having to compete with the marquee 2012 class. I know for a fact Eric Gordon has expressed interest in playing for the pacers eventually, kid loves his hometown, and he'd take a hard look at us when he's a free agent if we still have our space, and we have an excellent supporting cast set up, and if the new CBA makes it hard for some of the bigger markets to have their bloated payroll, some big name players will have to start taking a look at places like Indiana, and yes, Charlotte even.

Based on your scale of Biyombo qualifying for "A" level prospect i'd rank the teams prospects

A level prospects
Biyombo
Paul George, Roy Hibbert

B level prospects
Walker, Henderson, Stun (Thomas)
Collison, Hansbrough, George Hill,

Wildcards
Stephenson

Despite already having Danny Granger the pacers still have enough cap space to sign a max level player AND sign their youth to contracts when the time comes. Say we sign Eric Gordon, and George ends up around grangers level.

Collison/ Stephenson/ hill
Gordon/ Hill
Paul George/ D. Jones
(Trade Granger and draft picks for a dynamite power forward)/ Hansbrough
Hibbert/ Foster

Is a team that I think could make some noise, maybe we won't win a ship (but that's why we play the games) but we'd be a dark horse that is both deep and talented, and we'd also be young enough that some of today's super teams would be riding off into the sunset by the time our team is reaching it's collective prime.

OR we could simply sign a PF of about grangers or so caliber with our cap space and run with a team next year of

Collison/ Stephenson/ Hill
George/ Hill/ Rush
Granger/ Dahntay Jones
Nene or D. West/ Hansbrough
Hibbert/ Foster

Is a lineup that I believe could win 50 games next year and between Collison, hill, George and Hibbert still has all kinds of upside, meaning that we'd be competing for home court advantage. We played chicago about as close as possible this year, despite our inexperience and inferior roster I'll take my chances with either roster moving forward, and I don't think that that's a bad place to be at all. You don't NEED that super duper mega star to win in the playoffs, my pacers teams proved that in the 90's and early 2000's when we were consistantly elite without one, and teams like the pistons continued to show it after those teams fell apart. We didn't have a superstar on those reggie teams, just a deep talented team that played well together, and they took us to eastern royalty, nearly knocked off chicago a few times and got us to the finals. That's the kind of team we're building, and I believe that we can eventually be better than the current incarnation of the hawks, and i'm happy with a punchers chance... we'll see what the new CBA does about parity, but currently a punchers chance is about all most small market teams get in the NBA.

Of course this monolithic post is mostly due to boredom of no real news, and the intention wasn't to troll. Personally I wouldn't rank the 'cats last in future value, and wish you all luck in that you aren't one of those teams that don't manage to get out of the hole you dig when bottoming out for a long time. You just have to understand that it's hard to rank them highly when all real upside for them is projective, dependent on silas allowing them to play badly enough to actually get a top 5 pick, instead of a 10 or 11ish, dependent on them actually drafting well once they get those picks (their picks this year were good, but historically there have been some head scratchers), dependent on them not spending their cash on bad contracts (like tyrus thomas's) if their first options don't sign with them. Where you are now is certainly better than where you were (and 8th seeded or so team, with little youth and aging top players) that's about where we were early in JOB's tenure and it sucked. Being an 8th seed when you already have tons of youth with upside and enough cap space to attract major talent though? (where the pacers are right now) is very different from where charlotte was during the wallace era, or the bucks last year. I do believe we have a very good shot to build a very good team and our chances of attracting a star are no worse than charlottes, we have a great supporting cast set up right now a superstar could win big on that roster.

[captaincrunk]

As an Indiana fan who lives in Indiana: I'd take a paycut to leave.

[daschysta]

It's not so bad in Bloomington, but I get your gist, i'm not a fan of the midwest in general. But in basketball terms if the new CBA dash's the hopes of some teams to go way over the cap to sign another superstar some very good players will start to see the young talented team who just made the playoffs, yet have the cap space to sign another max contract player without losing any talent, as an attractive professional destination, and despite rumours to the contrary I do believe that most great players value winning over the sexy location, and if indy DOES have anything it's rabid sports fans, reggie was treated like a god when he was here any big name player would be absolutely adored. Plus I know of at least one budding star in Eric Gordon who would love to come back home to play for his favorite team growing up.

That's just superstars. Second tier guys like David West, or Nene will simply follow the money, they don't have the luxury of being so choosy, and indy being indy certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker. Plus we have great management that's willing to spend and a very friendly and talented coaching staff to consider, Brian shaw in particular, who is our lead assistant was kobe's first choice to take over in LA next year and is known as a very good players coach, and Larry Bird himself has appeal to certain players (especially euro's that grew up idolizing him, even picky guys like Rubio listed indiana as one of the only places he'd play for that reason, alongside huge cities and bigger markets).

Evansville is yuck though, I used to live there a long time ago. Indianapolis itself really isn't that bad, and bloomington is like an oasis, but yeah most of indiana (rural) blech. Good thing the city itself is decent, and we get to pay people millions of dollars to come .

[captaincrunk]

Indy sucks monkey balls.

Also, Larry Bird is nice, but MJ is pretty nice too.

Let's just be honest: 2nd tier guys like Nene probably have 10 or 12 teams who want to give them some kind of contract.

[daschysta]

But not 10 or 12 teams that can actually pay him said contract. This year his choices would basically boil down to denver, indiana, new jersey and sacramento who can pay him the mammoth contract he is asking for.

Denver already made their offer and were turned down, i'm not sure they don't let him walk for the money he's asking.

Sacramento is an option but aren't as good of a team as the Pacers are, and are definitally less stable between cousins and evans, talented but volatile.

New Jersey would be basically giving up on their 2012 dreams by signing nene, I don't think that they'll blow it on him when they think maybe they can lure howard next year.

Indiana gives him, imo the best chance to win now, can pay him whatever he wants, and he fits a huge need.

Guys like David West are also an option, and who knows how valuable the cap will be after the CBA, could be that teams will need to shed salary, putting us in a strong negotiating position.

It isn't like Indy is some basketball purgatory or such a bad place that players would turn down millions of dollars to play there.

It isn't like we've had trouble retaining our free agents, or that players are begging to get out.

Reggie could have gone back home to california as a free agent multiple times, liked it here enough to stay, still lives here part of the time.

JO could have left to play with tim duncan in san antonio, or any other place, still wanted to stay, former players have nothign but good tings to say about the organization after they leave, and the fans are really passionate here as well. And let's face it, if you have millions of dollars you can have a great time wherever you live, and property is much cheaper here, plus Indianapolis is only about a bit more than an hour away from chicago, if any player is really starved for a big city they can find one of the best in the world basically next door.

[captaincrunk]

Lmao "Indy ain't so bad, it's near Chicago!"

[daschysta]

Lmao "Indy ain't so bad, it's near Chicago!"

Please read the entire post, I don't think that i'm being unreasonable. You're argument boils down to the fact that you believe players would take millions of dollars less to play anywhere that isn't indy. I simply provided a few reasons why I don't believe it to be true. Being near chicago certainly isn't a crux of my argument, just an observation. The much larger point is that noone that I know of has ever regretted playing in indy (except perhaps artest, who was suffering from some psychological complications at the time), and most people that used to play for us have raved about the organization. Our owner is a billionaire willing to spend whatever money it takes, provided the team has a chance to compete, and there is the bird factor.

Your argument boils down to lmao indy sux0rz!@! y would nE one want to go and play there lol! Despite the fact that they are one of the few teams willing and able to offer lucrative contracts, and of the ones that can is among the best.

Don't act like small markets can't attract/ keep decent players. I'm quite cosmopolitan, and i've been around the block a time or two, both in the country and out of the country, including most NBA cities. Indianapolis itself really isn't very awful, the city itself is actually not very small at all (12th largest in the US) and isn't suffering as badly economically as many other cities. Politically, and for many other reasons I don't care much for it, but it isn't really much of a dump at all, and surrounding area's such as carmel, geist, and noblesville are very nice suburbs, and consistantly rated highly nationally.

I have no love for the state as a whole, and I can tell you that evansville, for one, is a dump, but the city isn't so bad that athletes would turn down millions of dollars to play here, and our organization actually has a pretty pristine record in the last 20 years of play satisfaction and management reputation... Oklahoma City of all places has a thriving team, and athletes don't mind playing there, detroit is an awful, awful place and players didn't mind playing there. Don't act like Indy being indy would prompt second tier stars to turn down millions of dollars jsut to avoid playing there. They don't have the luxury of being so picky, provided they want to get paid.

[Paydro70]

I think the wordcount ratio in this crunk/daschysta discussion is hovering around 100:1. Furthermore,

[daschysta]

Trolling doesn't take many words. But i'm out.

[e4Nf6]

This thread needs less walls of text and more lulz-cats

[SWedd523]

I think the wordcount ratio in this crunk/daschysta discussion is hovering around 100:1. Furthermore,

Glad I'm not the only one.

[captaincrunk]

For real though, I know a bit about getting heard in a forum. If you want to write long posts, spread em out. Use paragraphs that aren't so long, and maybe even taglines.

[captaincrunk]

I have no love for the state as a whole, and I can tell you that evansville, for one, is a dump,

It really isn't.

Oklahoma City of all places has a thriving team, and athletes don't mind playing there,

Which free agent did they attract again?

detroit is an awful, awful place and players didn't mind playing there. Don't act like Indy being indy would prompt second tier stars to turn down millions of dollars jsut to avoid playing there. They don't have the luxury of being so picky, provided they want to get paid.

Who is the best free agent Indy has ever attracted?

They had to win 58 games to convince Chris Mullin to come play.

I like Indiana, they're one of my teams. But I don't think they're going to attract a big name FA. NBA superstars don't want to live in Carmel no matter how nice it is portrayed in US News and World Reports.

[daschysta]

Heh, yeah I was a bit bad about the wall of text.

I'm not labouring under the delusion that we will be able to attract a top flight star, but to be fair Indiana hasn't really had the cap space to play with in free agency and in many, many years. I don't consider guys like David West or Nene to be top flight stars that would turn down more money from indiana to play somewhere else, and out of the teams that have money this offseason (the pacers, the kings, the nets, and denver) Indiana would be the best team if they added a player like that. We can pay them more money, and offer them a key spot on an up and coming team. The nets are saving up for teh 2012 sweepstakes. Denver has lost felton, nene, kenyon martin, JR smith, and probably wilson chandler, they are not the same team anymore... that is most of their core. Sacto isn't really close to winning in the super tough western conference, and while they have talent they are so volatile... If the lockout lasts the whole season it's even more likely we can get someone like that, since they would be competing with the 2012 free agents. Plus Eric Gordon is coming up as an FA, and he has expressed interest in coming home eventually.

As for the question.

Jermaine oneal was an unrestricted free agent when he was 3rd in MVP voting, and decided to return to the pacers despite lucrative offers from other teams, reggie was an unrestricted free agent at points during his career, before he had built up his loyalty with the team. You mentioned chris mullin, but there really isn't a precedent for our current situation, since our best teams have been built through the draft and trades.

also sorry about he evansville dump comment, i lived there years ago myself, for all I know it could have improved alot, I know Indy has, and I live in Bloomington now, which is by no means awful at all. i actually like the bobcats quite a bit too (was a morrison fan in college, shame he didn't work out). This whole thign was spun out of boredom, and the comment about indy's current situation being worse, which I disagree with, but i'd be glad as a bobcat fan that you have cho, and that you're finally rebuiling the right way, the pacers probably should have done that years ago, but, fortunately, we've been able to draft players that have been steals late int he lottery and not picked up any bad contracts so it's worked out.

[captaincrunk]

Heh, yeah I was a bit bad about the wall of text.

I'm not labouring under the delusion that we will be able to attract a top flight star, but to be fair Indiana hasn't really had the cap space to play with in free agency and in many, many years. I don't consider guys like David West or Nene to be top flight stars that would turn down more money from indiana to play somewhere else, and out of the teams that have money this offseason (the pacers, the kings, the nets, and denver) Indiana would be the best team if they added a player like that.

That's true about the money, I hadn't really been thinking about it. But it could also be a result of the fact that they knew free agency wasn't a boone to the team. Also, both David West and Nene are borderline All Stars. If Boozer's contract is any indication, they'll be expensive (though hopefully not as expensive as he is).

We can pay them more money, and offer them a key spot on an up and coming team. The nets are saving up for teh 2012 sweepstakes. Denver has lost felton, nene, kenyon martin, JR smith, and probably wilson chandler, they are not the same team anymore...

Denver hasn't lost any of them but Felton and only because they traded him. And Dani + Chandler + Nene ought to be what they try to get as their core.

Sacto isn't really close to winning in the super tough western conference, and while they have talent they are so volatile...

I think Sacramento's trade for Hickson put them out of the running for Nene. They want to stay younger.

If the lockout lasts the whole season it's even more likely we can get someone like that, since they would be competing with the 2012 free agents. Plus Eric Gordon is coming up as an FA, and he has expressed interest in coming home eventually.

Eric Gordon? Would put Paul George or Granger out of a job unless you start Granger at Pf (which ruins so many of his advantages).

As for the question.

Jermaine oneal was an unrestricted free agent when he was 3rd in MVP voting, and decided to return to the pacers despite lucrative offers from other teams, reggie was an unrestricted free agent at points during his career, before he had built up his loyalty with the team. You mentioned chris mullin, but there really isn't a precedent for our current situation, since our best teams have been built through the draft and trades.

It's a lot easier to return to a team and a fanbase that loves you than to move somewhere. That's why OKC isn't as worried about losing Durant as they might be. And I wonder if Perkins would have accepted that contract if he was just an UFA coming out of Boston? Possibly, but the fact that he was already there tremendously boosted those chances.

also sorry about he evansville dump comment, i lived there years ago myself, for all I know it could have improved alot, I know Indy has, and I live in Bloomington now, which is by no means awful at all. i actually like the bobcats quite a bit too (was a morrison fan in college, shame he didn't work out). This whole thign was spun out of boredom, and the comment about indy's current situation being worse, which I disagree with, but i'd be glad as a bobcat fan that you have cho, and that you're finally rebuiling the right way, the pacers probably should have done that years ago, but, fortunately, we've been able to draft players that have been steals late int he lottery and not picked up any bad contracts so it's worked out.

It's boring in evansville, but it actually has culture now and has for a few years. I go to the university so that might be why it isn't so terrible.

I'd much rather live in Louisville though.

[Rich4114]

Have to admit, I didn't read like 70% of this thread so far. But to the basic overall point being debated, Indiana is certainly a team on the rise and in a good position but like Stun said at best - the Atlanta Hawks. You have your Joe Johnson in Danny Granger and a bunch of J-Smove type guys around him. So the ceiling is what, 4th place? That's not so bad, the old Charlotte Hornets were there for years. But it does suck knowing you have the same chance of winning a title as the mid-lottery teams.

The point being made is MJ is starting over for a chance to get the A+ superstar difference maker AND sign the A+ superstar FA should they become available. Indiana can't really do that, although they are in much better position than a lot of other EC teams.