Fat's PG Rankings (2/3/2014 update pg 8)

[catch20two]

I have no problem with most of your list but I think Raymond Felton and Brandon Jennings should exchange #13 and #17.

[Liver_Pooty]

I saw this thread and forgot it was the rankings in May and about got sick. Things change fast.

[HornetJail]

December 20 update

steve nash, john wall, ricky rubio and derrick rose not ranked due to injuries

1. chris paul - back on top, not close to best statistical season, but he doesnt need to put up those stats this year
2. russell westbrook - fg% and pts down, assists way up
3. rajon rondo - could easily argue him for #1 or #2
4. tony parker - parker at same level as last year, but top 3 has improved
5. steph curry
6. kyrie irving
7. jrue holiday
8. deron williams
------ it gets really tough from here -----
9. ty lawson
10. mike conley
11. kemba walker
12. damien lillard
13. raymond felton
14. george hill
15. kyle lowry
16. goran dragic
17. brandon jennings
18. jarrett jack
19. greivis vasquez
20. jeff teague
21. eric bledsoe
22. brandon knight
23. jeremy lin
24. mo williams
25. jameer nelson
26. jose calderon
27. ramon sessions
28. darren collison
29. luke ridnour
30. andre miller

Ramon and Andre Miller deserve a boost. Conley is overrated and I'd put Rondo and Westbrook over Chris Paul.

[thruthefire]

Knight strikes me as the most over-ranked player. I'm 100 percent sure that no team trying to win now would take Knight over any of the guys below him outside of possibly Ridnour in fat's ranking.

And I wouldn't say Chris Paul ever lost his hold on the top spot. Compare him to Parker in 2011-12, for instance. Paul was the much more efficient scorer, a better passer, had a lower turnover rate, a higher rebound rate, and was far better at picking pockets. A clean sweep.

[fatlever]

shooting guard rankings as of 3-13 (posted originally in the hendo thread... use that thread to discuss)

this makes me think i need to do a SG ranking. lets try. this is much harder than pg rankings due to combo guards and wings who play both spots.

kobe bryant
---------
james harden
dwyane wade
manu ginobili
--------
paul george
andre iguodala
eric gordon
joe johnson
monte ellis
----------
jamal crawford
kevin martin
klay thompson
tyreke evans
wesley matthews
oj mayo
jr smith
demarr derozan
evan turner
---------
tony allen
arron afflalo
avery bradley
---------
bradley beal
jj redick
ray allen
dion waiters
--------
jared dudley
thabo sefolosha
gerald henderson
danny green
marcus thornton
lou williams
vince carter
-------
rodney stuckey
jason richardson
jason terry
ben gordon
nick young
shannon brown
courtney lee
alexy shved
alec burkes
john salmons
terrance ross


this is tough. by my rankings i have hendo at #27 on the shooting guard list. that being said, there really isnt much difference between #10 and #42 on this list other than consistency. the main point is that shooting guards like hendo are available in every draft and often in the mid-to-late 1st rounds as well as 2nd rounds and they are also available every summer in free agency.

who did i forget and where do you think my rankings are way off? too much credit to the defensive guys like allen, bradley, thabo and afflalo? or not enough? too high or too low for the rookies beal and waiters? does kobe deserve a tier to his own?

[HornetJail]

I'd bump Hendo, Thabo, and Dudley up a tier, bump Manu, Crawford, Evans, Derozan, Matthews, Beal, Waiters, and Green down a tier. If Henderson at least showed up to play against worse teams, he'd be in the middle of tier 4 instead of tier 284094 or whatever you have him in.

[Benjamin Linus]

I could get on board with that list. My only problem is with the tiers (for instance, I don't believe someone like Evan Turner is three tiers ahead of Henderson) but I do agree with your main point in that there's not a huge difference between say the 10th and 30th ranked SG. There really is an overload of "just solid" shooting guards in the NBA (and because of that I wouldn't be upset if we let go of Henderson). Anyway, I'd like to give it a shot...


kobe bryant
james harden
dwyane wade
--------
manu ginobili
joe johnson
andre iguodala
eric gordon
----------
jamal crawford
oj mayo
monta ellis
wesley matthews
arron afflalo
demar derozan
jj redick
klay thompson
kevin martin
jr smith
--------
tyreke evans
evan turner
bradley beal
avery bradley
tony allen
jared dudley
thabo sefolosha
gerald henderson
danny green
ray allen
marcus thornton
lou williams
dion waiters
vince carter
-------
rodney stuckey
jason richardson
jason terry
ben gordon
nick young
shannon brown
courtney lee
alexy shved
alec burkes
john salmons
terrance ross

[fatlever]

time for the bi-annual point guard rankings. flame away!!!

lots of injured guys making their way back to the rankings this time - rose, rondo, wall, nash, rubio

1. Chris Paul – He is still at the top, despite getting bounced early in the playoffs again. This year is the last year I will let him stay at #1 if he doesn’t at least make it to the western conference finals.
2. Tony Parker – Could have been on his way to a #1 ranking if he had not hurt his calf in the finals and missed a chance at winning finals MVP.
3. Steph Curry – As long as the ankles are healthy, there is no better offensive guard in the league. He was brilliant in the playoffs.
4. Russell Westbrook – Probably not his fault he fell to #4, but I have to reward those who had great playoffs.
5. Rajon Rondo – He is barely holding on to his top 5 ranking, due to injury. Lets see what he can do on a terrible team. If he keeps the Celtics in the playoffs hunt, he deserves to be ranked higher.
6. Derrick Rose – I am finally adding him back to the rankings on the assumption he will sack up and play in October. The knee will decide if he moves up or down.
7. Deron Williams – Last chance for Williams to remain in my top 10. He had a strong 2nd half, and with a new point guard friendly coach and a loaded roster, he has no excuses. If he fails to live up to expectation this year, he will never make my top 10 again.
8. Kyrie Irving – Until he proves he can stay on the court, attempt to play defense and win a few games he can’t be ranked any higher.
9. Mike Conley – If Deron, Kyrie and Rose disappoint, it will probably be Conley who benefits. He was great in the clippers series arguably outplaying Chris Paul.
10. John Wall – This is probably the toughest ranking for me. Has the talent to be top 3, but doesn’t seem to have the characteristics of a top tier point guard. This year could be make-or-break for him. If he leads the team to the playoffs he solidifies his place in the top 10, if he fails again, you have to start putting that loser label on him.
11. Ty Lawson – Speed kills and Lawson has it. It will be interesting to see how he fares without Iggy this year.
12. Ricky Rubio – He’s back!! Post All-Star splits of 13ppg, 8apg, 5rpg, 3spg. If he could shoot over 40% he would be unstoppable.
13. Jrue Holiday – He faded a bit in the 2nd half of the year. Needs to improve his efficiency. Lots of pressure in New Orleans.
14. Damien Lillard – While I do think he is a bit overrated, he gets the nod over Kemba for showing a bit more consistency.
15. Kemba Walker – Kemba really should have the chance to jump into the top 10 now that he has a legitimate roll man in Zeller and a post up man in Jefferson. He has to keep that fg% improving however.
16. George Hill – He isn’t flashy. He doesn’t do anything great on offense, but he plays solid defense, is tough and a good leader on a great team.
17. Jarrett Jack – He will probably never be ranked this high again, but I have to give him credit for a great season and solid playoffs.
18. Jeff Teague – Quietly had a solid season and keeps getting better.
19. Steve Nash – I really have no ideal where to rank Nash. He was rather awful last year, but injured and on a trainwreck of a team. He could still be top 10 or out of the top 30 come December.
20. Raymond Felton – Still plagued by inconsistency, but he is tough and a great leader.
21. Kyle Lowry – Hard to believe he was in my top 10 only 18 months ago. If he can stay healthy and lead the Raptors to the playoffs he could land back in the top 10, or close to it.
22. Eric Bledsoe – This is a potential ranking. He will be devastating on defense from day one in Phoenix and possibly equally devastating at times on offense, in a bad way. If he ever puts it all together he will be a top 10 guard for sure.
23. Joes Calderon – Great passer, great shooter, smart, horrible defender and plays with the ball in his hands far too much for my liking.
24. Grevis Vasquez – When you average 14 and 9 you have value. Perhaps he isn’t best suited as a starter, but he can still pass with the best of them.
25. Andre Miller – If we were ranking players on their per minute output, he would be 5 spots higher.
26. Brandon Jennings – Is it that obvious that I can’t stand his game?
27. Brandon Knight – Good shooter, hard worker, high character, solid defense, but still struggling to be a point guard. It will get better or else he will be a career 3rd guard, but a great one.
28. Jeremy Lin – He still had his moments last year. Better suited as a 3rd guard.
29. Goron Dragic – What happened?
30. Nate Robinson – After what he did in the playoffs, he has to make the list, even if I can’t stand his game. Too much one on one ball.
.

Just missed the cut: Thomas, Sessions, Nelson, Ridnour, Collison, Mo Williams, Beverly, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams

[Stun704]

time for the bi-annual point guard rankings. flame away!!!

lots of injured guys making their way back to the rankings this time - rose, rondo, wall, nash, rubio

1. Chris Paul – He is still at the top, despite getting bounced early in the playoffs again. This year is the last year I will let him stay at #1 if he doesn’t at least make it to the western conference finals.
2. Tony Parker – Could have been on his way to a #1 ranking if he had not hurt his calf in the finals and missed a chance at winning finals MVP.
3. Steph Curry – As long as the ankles are healthy, there is no better offensive guard in the league. He was brilliant in the playoffs.
4. Russell Westbrook – Probably not his fault he fell to #4, but I have to reward those who had great playoffs.
5. Rajon Rondo – He is barely holding on to his top 5 ranking, due to injury. Lets see what he can do on a terrible team. If he keeps the Celtics in the playoffs hunt, he deserves to be ranked higher.
6. Derrick Rose – I am finally adding him back to the rankings on the assumption he will sack up and play in October. The knee will decide if he moves up or down.
7. Deron Williams – Last chance for Williams to remain in my top 10. He had a strong 2nd half, and with a new point guard friendly coach and a loaded roster, he has no excuses. If he fails to live up to expectation this year, he will never make my top 10 again.
8. Kyrie Irving – Until he proves he can stay on the court, attempt to play defense and win a few games he can’t be ranked any higher.
9. Mike Conley – If Deron, Kyrie and Rose disappoint, it will probably be Conley who benefits. He was great in the clippers series arguably outplaying Chris Paul.
10. John Wall – This is probably the toughest ranking for me. Has the talent to be top 3, but doesn’t seem to have the characteristics of a top tier point guard. This year could be make-or-break for him. If he leads the team to the playoffs he solidifies his place in the top 10, if he fails again, you have to start putting that loser label on him.
11. Ty Lawson – Speed kills and Lawson has it. It will be interesting to see how he fares without Iggy this year.
12. Ricky Rubio – He’s back!! Post All-Star splits of 13ppg, 8apg, 5rpg, 3spg. If he could shoot over 40% he would be unstoppable.
13. Jrue Holiday – He faded a bit in the 2nd half of the year. Needs to improve his efficiency. Lots of pressure in New Orleans.
14. Damien Lillard – While I do think he is a bit overrated, he gets the nod over Kemba for showing a bit more consistency.
15. Kemba Walker – Kemba really should have the chance to jump into the top 10 now that he has a legitimate roll man in Zeller and a post up man in Jefferson. He has to keep that fg% improving however.
16. George Hill – He isn’t flashy. He doesn’t do anything great on offense, but he plays solid defense, is tough and a good leader on a great team.
17. Jarrett Jack – He will probably never be ranked this high again, but I have to give him credit for a great season and solid playoffs.
18. Jeff Teague – Quietly had a solid season and keeps getting better.
19. Steve Nash – I really have no ideal where to rank Nash. He was rather awful last year, but injured and on a trainwreck of a team. He could still be top 10 or out of the top 30 come December.
20. Raymond Felton – Still plagued by inconsistency, but he is tough and a great leader.
21. Kyle Lowry – Hard to believe he was in my top 10 only 18 months ago. If he can stay healthy and lead the Raptors to the playoffs he could land back in the top 10, or close to it.
22. Eric Bledsoe – This is a potential ranking. He will be devastating on defense from day one in Phoenix and possibly equally devastating at times on offense, in a bad way. If he ever puts it all together he will be a top 10 guard for sure.
23. Joes Calderon – Great passer, great shooter, smart, horrible defender and plays with the ball in his hands far too much for my liking.
24. Grevis Vasquez – When you average 14 and 9 you have value. Perhaps he isn’t best suited as a starter, but he can still pass with the best of them.
25. Andre Miller – If we were ranking players on their per minute output, he would be 5 spots higher.
26. Brandon Jennings – Is it that obvious that I can’t stand his game?
27. Brandon Knight – Good shooter, hard worker, high character, solid defense, but still struggling to be a point guard. It will get better or else he will be a career 3rd guard, but a great one.
28. Jeremy Lin – He still had his moments last year. Better suited as a 3rd guard.
29. Goron Dragic – What happened?
30. Nate Robinson – After what he did in the playoffs, he has to make the list, even if I can’t stand his game. Too much one on one ball.
.

Just missed the cut: Thomas, Sessions, Nelson, Ridnour, Collison, Mo Williams, Beverly, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams

How the **** is Lillard better then Kemba if Kemba has a higher PER meaning more consistency? Kemba is also better then all flash rubio

[fatlever]

haha, i knew i would ruffle some feathers with putting lillard one spot ahead of kemba. to be honest its a coin flip in my mind. i know lillard is great at running the pick and roll. i dont yet know if kemba is (not entirely his fault due to having no bigs).

[SWedd523]

I can see Lillard as +/- 1 with Kemba, but I don't think Rubio has any business being above either one. Nobody can shoot in the 30s and be that high.

[penquin11]

I think you have Conely, Rubio, Holiday, Lillard, and Rondo too high.

Rubio shot 35% and was a TO machine, Conely is unspectacular and benefits from the depth that pulls defenders off him, Holiday started hot but fell off the face of the Earth- not to mention the entire Discussion of Kemba vs him, and Lillard while exciting really was inconsistent on a rather well built Blazers team. Rondo is in for a rude awakening next year, he has great vision, but without stars around him he is going to face alot more pressure, that stated he is a tremendous player.

lawson ought to be higher- he makes the wheels turn on that team. Wall also went off last year after returning from injury.

I think you under-rate Kemba, he managed to be a very productive player without any real post help and facing zones/double teams.

[mrknowitall215]

I want to put Kemba in top 10 PG discussion, but I'll be patient with it & play the fence by keeping him right around 13-17 until he's more experienced & proven. This upcoming season could quite possibly staple his positioning as an above average player at his respective position. I hope all of the hardwork that he's putting in pays off

[Eoghan]

Pretty good list but there is no way I'm putting Chris Paul ahead of Tony Parker. CP3 barely knows what playoffs look like compared to Parker. Rubio should be in the top 10 in my (unpopular) opinion. He put up really good numbers for a guy that can't shoot and had nobody to pass it to. I think Jrue is overrated a bit. I don't even think Detroit considers Knight a PG anymore.

[fatlever]

let kemba earn his top 10 ranking. if he shows more growth this season and matures as a pick and roll pg and improves slightly on his fg% he will get there.

rubio's fg% gets too much attention. he does everything else at a very high level - passing, rebounding, defense, running the offense etc... he creates so much for everyone around him. does he need to improve? absolutely. but he is not there to score. thats not what he is about. not suggesting he is in the same class as a young jason kidd, but kidd was very similar in terms of fg%. kidd had 9 seasons where he shot under 40%.

i definitely dont agree about conley being ranked too high (well, they are my rankings so of course i dont agree... haha). conley is one of the most underrated players in the league (and you all know i hate ohio state, so its painful for me to admit that).

if wall starts winning more and leads that team to playoffs, his ranking will climb quickly. the talent and numbers are there. now he has to show leadership and wins.

i expect holiday to fall a bit this year. but i am giving him some credit for his good 1st half, his all-star berth, holding together a terrible sixers team for longer than expected and playing really good defense.

i think the lillard vs kemba debate is going to be a really good one for a long time. i think kemba takes the lead this year as his play starts to translate into more wins and increased offensive efficiency for the team.

as for parker and paul, i had parker #1 last year at this time, which was a little unpopular. and i had parker at #1 halfway thru the finals. while i know it was probably related to the hamstring, i had to push him down a little. he just didnt show up when they needed him the most. this will be the last year i dont penalize paul for not getting further in the playoffs. put up or shut up time for him. no more excuses. no more diva behavior. no more coach killing. just get to the western conf finals and play well in the process.

[HornetJail]

Well I'm here, sleep isn't coming anytime soon, so here's my top 30 going into opening night 2013-14:

1) Paul - #1 PG in the league and has been so for years, nothing's changed
2) Westbrook - going to come back on a completely different level. top 5 player in the league, book it
3) Curry - best shooting in the game hands down. incredible in the second half and postseason
4) Parker - great player no doubt, but age is going to eventually catch up to him
5) Irving - ready to take the next step- his team could be a PO team next year and he could lead them there
6) Rose - the dude won't have played in an NBA game in more than 18 months. this is reaaaaaalllly generous tbh
7) Williams - obviously a great player, crazy offensive player, all depends on how jason kidd uses him in the offense
8) Wall - like irving, ready to take the next step on a potential playoff team. was hot to end last season but can he ride that into 13-14?
9) Walker - bold pick, maybe slightly biased, but Kemba was a borderline-top-12 PG without any kind of big man up front, now he has Zeller and the best scoring center in the game
10) Holiday - we saw how Holiday struggled with another ball-handler when he played with Iggy. could that happen with Evans and Gordon?
11) Lillard - he'll improve a little from last season, but I don't see a Wall/irving/Kemba-type leap
12) Lawson - the heart and soul of the Denver Nuggets, now has JJ Hickson AND Javale to throw lobs to. Fun
13) Rondo - fans are in for a very rude awakening. i think doc's system made Rondo the player he is, and without Doc, KG, Pierce, plus the ACL recovery, it's going to be a huge fall from grace unfortunately.
14) Conley - always thought Conley was a highly overrated point guard. He's proved me wrong a little over the last year, but nothing that puts him over Rondo and the 5 young up-and-comers before him.
15) Lowry - Major disappointment so far in T-Dot. His numbers went DOWN to 9ppg after Calderon left town. Still good for nice all-around numbers though. I think he'll bounce back though
16) Teague - He's slipped far under the radar. If he's in ATL, it's just him, Millsap, and Horford. Clear-cut third option with both #1 and #2 being big men.
17) Rubio - Meh. His all-around numbers are really, really nice but he shoots icky percentages: 36/29/80. If he can stop giving me a reason to call him "Bricky Scrubio" then he'll be unstoppable, but till then, he's stuck here
18) Dragic - Hoping he bounces back some after a bad year, still a terrific PG who suffers from a lot of inconsistency
19) Nash - I don't know whether to rank him in the top 8 or the top 40. All I know is D'Antoni is a bum who doesn't realize he can't run-and-gun with a 65-year-old point guard.
20) Felton - like Dragic, great talent who's inconsistent as all hell. we all know that.
21) Jack - goes from backing Curry to backing Irving. He can play alongside Irving. This is a bit high for a backup, but he is the best backup in the league.
22) Calderon - he'll have a hell of a time playing with Dirk. The shooting and the passing will be something to watch. So will the defense but in the opposite extreme.
23) Lin - If he works on his shot to the point where he drills threes when he's got space, then he's much higher on this list. if not, he'll be a hindrance to Harden/Howard/Parsons and will be much lower.
24) Jennings - i hope he doesn't go screw up some playoff team's gameplan by chucking up 30 shots per 36. His ranking depends on the situation.
25) Burke - he's going to be a low-end PG as a rookie, but you expect as much from a rookie. he'll eventually make quite a few teams regret passing on him
26) Bledsoe - I'm still not sold on Bledsoe as a starter. Backup to Chris Paul was as perfect as it gets.
27) Hill - kind of like a rich man's Mario Chalmers, just thrives in his role, but the Pacers would be better off with a real playmaker. Hill is a terrible playmaker and not a great enough shooter or defender to make up for it
28) Sessions - I still think Sessions would be as good if not better than Jarrett Jack in that sixth man role on a playoff team. we'll just have to wait and see
29) Knight - better off as a Rodney-Stuckey-esque backup combo guard, but still a great player to have
30) Vasquez - received inflated assist stats in the NO system, again better suited as a third guard on a team that needs stability off the bench. Fit with the Kings is pretty questionable.

[LamarMatic7]

sorry, man, but that wasn't slightly biased, that was very biased.

Ask any knowledgeable fan or expert of the league who doesn't have any bias in this matter and he'll put Holiday, Lillard, Lawson, Rondo, Conley, Rubio and Jack ahead of Kemba. And, in my opinion, he wouldn't be wrong.

It's still an argument on who's better when you compare him with Teague, Hill and Calderon (completely different playing style, can't compare him with these two), Felton, Dragic and Lowry.

[HornetJail]

sorry, man, but that wasn't slightly biased, that was very biased.

Ask any knowledgeable fan or expert of the league who doesn't have any bias in this matter and he'll put Holiday, Lillard, Lawson, Rondo, Conley, Rubio and Jack ahead of Kemba. And, in my opinion, he wouldn't be wrong.

It's still an argument on who's better when you compare him with Teague, Hill and Calderon (completely different playing style, can't compare him with these two), Felton, Dragic and Lowry.

i considered putting Holiday in front of Kemba but then I remembered how he struggled with another ball handler in Iguodala. Tyreke isn't much different and Gordon is a ball handler as well. Rondo is working his way back from his ACL and now has nobody to pass to. Rubio can't be above average until he shoots more than 36% from the field. Jack is a backup PG. he's the best one in the game, but he's still a back up for a reason. Conley, Lillard, and Lawson can go either way. And that's we're my bias came in a little.

These are just my projections for next season. Kemba is at least one tier above Felton and Co. right now, wait till next year.

[fatlever]

i repeat, jason kidd was the best pg in the league for almost a decade and shot under 40% NINE times in his career, many times hovering around 36%. rubio isnt kidd, but they have a ton of similarities in their games. you also should factor in that his 1st year he was a rookie and last year he was coming back from major knee injury and by the time was playing everyone else was injured. you can't ingore 13pts, 8ast, 5reb, and 3stls. thats nasty.

[fatlever]

and kemba ahead of conley, lawson and rondo is just extremely biased and based on wishful thinking. i can listen to arguments about kemba ahead of rubio, lillard and holiday because they are all close, but there is no argument right now to convince me he should be ahead of those other 3. its not a ranking of where i hope players will be in a year or two, its based on right now.