Fun with Stats!!!

[Braggins]

The point is that if the amount of zone JB was using is basically normal now relative to the rest of the league, then its not really junk defense and he was just an early adapter of what is now a league wide trend. I don't know where to find the stats on this stuff to see what really is going on, but either way, whatever JB was doing on defense last season was actually more effective than what Clifford is doing this season. The underlying assumption that what Clifford is doing is "good fundamental defense" but what JB was doing is "junk" is probably just wrong. Its pretty obvious at this point that the underlying problem defensively is the roster and not coaching and JB's strategy performed relatively better with worse, or equal at best, personnel, so its not really fair to keep acting like the defensive issues last season were being caused by JB.

[yosemiteben]

The point is that if the amount of zone JB was using is basically normal now relative to the rest of the league, then its not really junk defense and he was just an early adapter of what is now a league wide trend. I don't know where to find the stats on this stuff to see what really is going on, but either way, whatever JB was doing on defense last season was actually more effective than what Clifford is doing this season. The underlying assumption that what Clifford is doing is "good fundamental defense" but what JB was doing is "junk" is probably just wrong. Its pretty obvious at this point that the underlying problem defensively is the roster and not coaching and JB's strategy performed relatively better with worse, or equal at best, personnel, so its not really fair to keep acting like the defensive issues last season were being caused by JB.

I do agree that it's pretty clear that JB wasn't the problem defensively last season, point well taken.

I don't think the league is playing more zone, I think you're referring to Zach Lowe's podcast where he was talking about Miami but don't think he said it was a league wide trend. Maybe I'm misremembering or just didn't hear correctly.

Even if it was, I think adopting a non-traditional, non-man oriented defense is a really bad idea if the goal is to help get Melo off his bad habits, which I think should be our top priority.

I would happily throw away a season with awful defense if it was spent drilling the bad defensive habits out of Melo.

[Braggins]

I wasn't talking about Lowes podcast. It was a different podcast in an episode about league wide defensive trends. Someone specifically said that zone defense usage was up across the league this season.

Regardless, no one would say Miami is using junk defense or that Spoelstra is teaching bad defensive fundamentals to his team because of their use of zone defense. I think the narrative about JB's defensive strategy last season being illegitimate was always suspect.

[yosemiteben]

I wasn't talking about Lowes podcast. It was a different podcast in an episode about league wide defensive trends. Someone specifically said that zone defense usage was up across the league this season.

Regardless, no one would say Miami is using junk defense or that Spoelstra is teaching bad defensive fundamentals to his team because of their use of zone defense. I think the narrative about JB's defensive strategy last season being illegitimate was always suspect.

Gotcha, my bad on the podcast.

Do you disagree that Melo is lacking in basic defensive fundamentals? Or that using a zone defense wouldn't really address that?

Trying to understand whether you disagree with what I'm saying about Melo.

[wilson115]

Does anyone know where to find up to date stats on how often teams use zone defense?

Here's something:

The Charlotte Hornets were the only team that used zone in > 10% of their halfcourt possessions last season, and the Miami Heat and Portland Trail Blazers were the only other teams that cracked even 8%.

But generally speaking, I found that zone was rarely used and didn’t seem to be on the upswing.

Well, I’ve updated the data through this year — and it’s in a similar place:

The Miami Heat have taken their zone game to another level this season, using it on more than a quarter of their possessions thus far.

The Hornets, under James Borrego, often resorted to a zone. Charlotte’s new/returning coach, Steve Clifford, is decidedly old-school in his defensive philosophies, and the Hornets have completely excised zone from their playbook. It hasn’t helped — the team was 18th in halfcourt defense last year and is 28th this season.

https://www.basketballpoetry.com/p/game-of-zones

[JMAC3]

Dennis Smith Jr 9th in Defensive Raptor, 2nd in on/off Def Raptor

Gordon Hayward 7th in on/off def raptor.

[yosemiteben]

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[HornetJail]

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Good to see but there was nowhere to go but up for those two. They had abysmal showings for the first two months, arguably the worst stretches of each of their careers (barring Rozier's first couple seasons in the league where he was a legit terrible player)

[Braggins]

They need to have a plan to have Hayward coming off the bench next season to keep him healthy. Hes a fantastic complimentary player and maybe he can stay healthy with lower minutes and less offensive load.

If they end up resigning Miles then that probably solves itself.

[fatlever]

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Melo leads league in avg miles run per game. Impressive. He never stops moving.

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[HornetJail]

the ankle revolts

[fatlever]

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That last in the league in charges drawn. Lowest rate of charges drawn in the league since 2016. Are we just that soft? Or is this by design? We were middle of the pack last year.

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[SWedd523]

I've remarked a few times at how easy it is for opposing players to get to the hoop on dribble drives. I don't know if it's the guards trying to not get reach fouls or what but the individual man defense has been atrocious all year long

[yosemiteben]

Post-ASB, our team is ranked third in defensive efficiency and 12th in pace. During that same time period, our ORTG is dead last in the league.

[HornetJail]

Post-ASB, our team is ranked third in defensive efficiency and 12th in pace. During that same time period, our ORTG is dead last in the league.

we were actually 1st in defense just before Mark went down

[fatlever]

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Cliff gonna Cliff

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[fatlever]

if you think the hornets ball movement sucks, you aren't crazy, right?
last 15 gms
hornets are 24th in total passes
28th in adjusted assists %
24th in assists

what other stats support or dispute the theory that hornets are poor ball movement team?
we aren't an iso heavy team, like clippers/mavs, but also not a team that moves the ball.
we lead league in pick and roll frequency. it's cliff's bread and butter. wait for screen, pick for ball handler, drive to paint, try to kick out to a shooter. repeat this play, over and over.
we are bottom 10 in league in point per possession in this play at 0.89
we hit the roll man middle of pack frequency
bottom 5 in transition freq %
bottom 5 in post up freq %
bottom 10 in cut freq %
middle of the pack in high touch time, high dribbles

sacto near top of league in all ball movement metrics = jay triano?

summary
we play slow, don't run, don't get to ft line, we run the most basic play in basketball more than any team in the league and do it quite poorly

anyone else come to different conclusions?

[JDR720]

Would be interesting to see the stats from the first few games after the deadline.

[fatlever]

Would be interesting to see the stats from the first few games after the deadline.

we actually averaged less passes in those 3 games... didn't look at all the other stuff though

[wilson115]

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Cliff gonna Cliff

"Now you see me..."

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