The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[JDR720]

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[Braggins]

I do think that our defensive dropoff without MKG is largely due to lack of depth behind him. However, I still think Clifford is an absolutely awful coach overall and there are plenty of coaches who could coach us as well or better on defense. He is nothing special defensively and even if he was it wouldnt come close to making up for his deficiencies. There is no reason to keep him and waiting for him to improve is a waste of time.

[DY_nasty]

I do think that our defensive dropoff without MKG is largely due to lack of depth behind him. However, I still think Clifford is an absolutely awful coach overall and there are plenty of coaches who could coach us as well or better on defense. He is nothing special defensively and even if he was it wouldnt come close to making up for his deficiencies. There is no reason to keep him and waiting for him to improve is a waste of time.

We had depth in the frontcourt but that didn't stop Clifford from putting Marvin Williams on Bosh and Blake Griffin for extended minutes.

Like... we have to save him from himself with personnel moves. That should never be the relationship between FO and Coaching Staff.

[LofJ]

Clifford is going to get another year to prove himself, but if he doesn't make big strides he won't get another season. Who do you guys think we should go after next offseason if Cliff doesn't get it done?

I like Amaker if we can convince him to make the jump to the NBA.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I agree that Cliff is going to get another year. I'm super unexcited by the prospect. Cliff does have some strengths as a coach, but he's simply not good enough to really take this team anywhere IMHO. I do agree with others that he gets too much credit for the team's improvement ... but the fact that there has been improvement under his watch is actually a positive. We can argue that MKG might have grown more under someone else for example, but it's a somewhat circular argument.

[-Ian-]

Who do you guys think we should go after next offseason if Cliff doesn't get it done?

We should find the next Brad Stevens.

[Eoghan]

I hate that the Hoiberg train has left the station. That Dan Erman guy that got hired recently was supposedly the defensive guru that got Golden State to play defense before he ran afoul of almighty Mark Jackson like Scalabrine did.

Clifford's defense is just really conservative. Limit OPP, limit turnovers, concentrate on defensive rebounds, no offensive boards in favor of transition D, etc. Kudos to him for getting a young team handicapped by Al Jefferson to stick to some basic defensive principles but it mostly works b/c the players like him. If we had two losing seasons like last year instead of just one, the defense would have likely been inconsistent as the players' lose patience and tuned him out, like with Dunlap.

[Braggins]

I do think that our defensive dropoff without MKG is largely due to lack of depth behind him. However, I still think Clifford is an absolutely awful coach overall and there are plenty of coaches who could coach us as well or better on defense. He is nothing special defensively and even if he was it wouldnt come close to making up for his deficiencies. There is no reason to keep him and waiting for him to improve is a waste of time.

We had depth in the frontcourt but that didn't stop Clifford from putting Marvin Williams on Bosh and Blake Griffin for extended minutes.

Like... we have to save him from himself with personnel moves. That should never be the relationship between FO and Coaching Staff.

I agree. Its a frustrating situation. I think Cliff has a good grasp of defensive concepts but it doesn't matter because, like you said, he shoots himself in the foot every chance he gets with his rotations/personnel choices.

[Braggins]

I'm really starting to like Mike Malone for this team, but he will likely have another job by the time we bite the bullet and get rid of Clifford. I wanted to fire Clifford before the season was over and give Mark Price a shot as an interim.

[DY_nasty]

I hate that the Hoiberg train has left the station. That Dan Erman guy that got hired recently was supposedly the defensive guru that got Golden State to play defense before he ran afoul of almighty Mark Jackson like Scalabrine did.

Clifford's defense is just really conservative. Limit OPP, limit turnovers, concentrate on defensive rebounds, no offensive boards in favor of transition D, etc. Kudos to him for getting a young team handicapped by Al Jefferson to stick to some basic defensive principles but it mostly works b/c the players like him. If we had two losing seasons like last year instead of just one, the defense would have likely been inconsistent as the players' lose patience and tuned him out, like with Dunlap.

Dunlap literally didn't coach defense outside of trapping and strong weakside help lol. That team was never meant to play defense for longer than 12 seconds. It was a fundamentally broken roster and he realized it right away. Why else do you think he coached guys to full-court trap and perform full rotations on just 3 man units? If we didn't get out on transition and create additional possessions for ourselves, then we may not have won a single game with that roster.

But either way... I don't even think we need a homerun hire. Just an average coach.

[LofJ]

Another two suggestions for people we should talk to to gauge their interest in the NBA are Tony Bennett at Virginia and Gregg Marshall at Wichita State.

I'm not sure we could convince Bennett given how much success he's having right now, but I really think we could tempt Marshall. He's a brilliant coach and he was born in South Carolina and grew up in Virginia so he might appreciate the opportunity to be closer to home. I know some people might remember him from WInthrop and then accepting and turning down the Charleston job, but that was a long time ago. And he's done an amazing job at both Winthrop and now Wichita State. It takes brains and ingenuity to compete against the well funded recruiting machines at the big basketball schools and he's done it at two separate places. I'd love to see what he could do with professional talent. We'd have to pony up some cash for him though, he got a raise this season and is making 3 million a year.

[BeesWax]

Another two suggestions for people we should talk to to gauge their interest in the NBA are Tony Bennett at Virginia and Gregg Marshall at Wichita State.

I'm not sure we could convince Bennett given how much success he's having right now, but I really think we could tempt Marshall. He's a brilliant coach and he was born in South Carolina and grew up in Virginia so he might appreciate the opportunity to be closer to home. I know some people might remember him from WInthrop and then accepting and turning down the Charleston job, but that was a long time ago. And he's done an amazing job at both Winthrop and now Wichita State. It takes brains and ingenuity to compete against the well funded recruiting machines at the big basketball schools and he's done it at two separate places. I'd love to see what he could do with professional talent. We'd have to pony up some cash for him though, he got a raise this season and is making 3 million a year.

Marshall has a rep of being hard to work with. I would imagine he is custom built for college where he gets the most out of a guy in 4 years and then that guy moves on. Kind of like Harbaugh in the NFL vs college. Now Bennett has ties to both the area and to the Hornets. I think he could be swayed if we went all in. I am hoping he is a target when Clifford is let go.

[LofJ]

Another two suggestions for people we should talk to to gauge their interest in the NBA are Tony Bennett at Virginia and Gregg Marshall at Wichita State.

I'm not sure we could convince Bennett given how much success he's having right now, but I really think we could tempt Marshall. He's a brilliant coach and he was born in South Carolina and grew up in Virginia so he might appreciate the opportunity to be closer to home. I know some people might remember him from WInthrop and then accepting and turning down the Charleston job, but that was a long time ago. And he's done an amazing job at both Winthrop and now Wichita State. It takes brains and ingenuity to compete against the well funded recruiting machines at the big basketball schools and he's done it at two separate places. I'd love to see what he could do with professional talent. We'd have to pony up some cash for him though, he got a raise this season and is making 3 million a year.

Marshall has a rep of being hard to work with. I would imagine he is custom built for college where he gets the most out of a guy in 4 years and then that guy moves on. Kind of like Harbaugh in the NFL vs college. Now Bennett has ties to both the area and to the Hornets. I think he could be swayed if we went all in. I am hoping he is a target when Clifford is let go.

Those are some great point about Marshall. I also had no idea that Bennett was drafted by us. I was young and star focused (LJ, Zo, Mugs, Curry) then and didn't pay any attention to the other guys. That is really cool, we'd have to blow him away with at least $5 million a year I would think to tempt him.

[pellom]

The 1st call should (and probably would) be to David Fizdale. That guy is the next great coach.

[LofJ]

The one thing that gives me pause about Bennett is his focus on defense. If we were to go after him, we'd have to be confident he could get the most out of our guys offensively as well to give him the job. He's said many teams that the style he plays was the most conducive to winning when he first got to UVA (and while at WSU) because he knew he couldn't out recruit programs like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc. so he needed to outwork them. I agree with him that getting guys that work hard and bring it every game on defense is the best way to ensure stable success, but it won't be enough to win championships. To compete for championships you need to be great on both ends of the court.

[JDR720]

if we get a new coach, i would want a defensive coach since most of our players are more on the defensive side, but they need to at least have a working offense.

[HornetJail]

if we get a new coach, i would want a defensive coach since most of our players are more on the defensive side, but they need to at least have a working offense.

We would need someone that can get the most out of mediocre offensive players. Guys like MKG, Bismack, and Vonleh are going to play defense in any system.

[BeesWax]

The one thing that gives me pause about Bennett is his focus on defense. If we were to go after him, we'd have to be confident he could get the most out of our guys offensively as well to give him the job. He's said many teams that the style he plays was the most conducive to winning when he first got to UVA (and while at WSU) because he knew he couldn't out recruit programs like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc. so he needed to outwork them. I agree with him that getting guys that work hard and bring it every game on defense is the best way to ensure stable success, but it won't be enough to win championships. To compete for championships you need to be great on both ends of the court.

I think he does well on offense. He does not get great offensive players but he plays an active moving system that works well. I think he could adjust and develop even more should he be on a more level talent basis. We have pieces to really be huge on defense for his style and he believes in the wing three as well.

[LofJ]

The one thing that gives me pause about Bennett is his focus on defense. If we were to go after him, we'd have to be confident he could get the most out of our guys offensively as well to give him the job. He's said many teams that the style he plays was the most conducive to winning when he first got to UVA (and while at WSU) because he knew he couldn't out recruit programs like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc. so he needed to outwork them. I agree with him that getting guys that work hard and bring it every game on defense is the best way to ensure stable success, but it won't be enough to win championships. To compete for championships you need to be great on both ends of the court.

I think he does well on offense. He does not get great offensive players but he plays an active moving system that works well. I think he could adjust and develop even more should he be on a more level talent basis. We have pieces to really be huge on defense for his style and he believes in the wing three as well.

I think he would adjust to the players he has as well, but what I really wonder is if he's smart enough to put systems into play that will change the way the game is played and give us a competitive advantage. To do that you have to use your players in ways that no one else does. Take Vonleh for example, he could potentially play both forward positions and center on offense. Against teams with lumbering bigs like Memphis you could play him at the 5 with Zeller at PF and have both of them shooting the three with the lane wide open for MKG and Kemba to cut to the basket. Or against teams with shorter perimeter players like Denver or Boston we could move Noah to the 3 with Zeller at the 5 and MKG at the 4, both of whom can take most traditional 5 and 4's off the dribble with ease. And if we start getting burned in the post doing stuff like this we go back to being traditional with Biyombo at the 5 and Zeller/Vonleh at the 4.

I want a coach who is willing to try new thing like this and commit to practicing it to see what we can do with it. With the defensive versatility of MKG and Zeller, and Vonleh's offensive versatility we should absolutely try to use that to our advantage. And if we end up drafting Johnson you can throw him into that group as well.

[BeesWax]

The one thing that gives me pause about Bennett is his focus on defense. If we were to go after him, we'd have to be confident he could get the most out of our guys offensively as well to give him the job. He's said many teams that the style he plays was the most conducive to winning when he first got to UVA (and while at WSU) because he knew he couldn't out recruit programs like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc. so he needed to outwork them. I agree with him that getting guys that work hard and bring it every game on defense is the best way to ensure stable success, but it won't be enough to win championships. To compete for championships you need to be great on both ends of the court.

I think he does well on offense. He does not get great offensive players but he plays an active moving system that works well. I think he could adjust and develop even more should he be on a more level talent basis. We have pieces to really be huge on defense for his style and he believes in the wing three as well.

I think he would adjust to the players he has as well, but what I really wonder is if he's smart enough to put systems into play that will change the way the game is played and give us a competitive advantage. To do that you have to use your players in ways that no one else does. Take Vonleh for example, he could potentially play both forward positions and center on offense. Against teams with lumbering bigs like Memphis you could play him at the 5 with Zeller at PF and have both of them shooting the three with the lane wide open for MKG and Kemba to cut to the basket. Or against teams with shorter perimeter players like Denver or Boston we could move Noah to the 3 with Zeller at the 5 and MKG at the 4, both of whom can take most traditional 5 and 4's off the dribble with ease. And if we start getting burned in the post doing stuff like this we go back to being traditional with Biyombo at the 5 and Zeller/Vonleh at the 4.

I want a coach who is willing to try stuff like this and commit to practicing it to see what we can do with it.

I thought he sort of did that this year at UVA. He ran stuff that looked different with different units he used. Watching them this year I though man was he flexibile with his style according to who was on the court. They played some inside out at time and others was mostly screen stuff. Went ISO when he had a mismatch. The only thing I thought he did wrong was go to heavy into Anderson before he was really ready.