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Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#281 » by fatlever » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:43 am

TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#282 » by TinmanZBoy » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:44 am

fatlever wrote:You guys might be on to something with Batum on the 2nd unit. It hasn't worked the last few games. I think Batum is suffering from a bit of his own version of hero ball on that unit. I'm interested to see the O/D ratings of the 5-man unit of Lin, Batum, Lamb, Frank, Hawes after tonight's game. That lineup has 5 guys capable of running the offense.

Counter argument against MKG getting more minutes with bench unit. MKG's main role on this team is for defense, not to mesh with a 2nd unit. Cliff is not going to waste MKG vs the other team's bench unit. MKG is being saved so that he can guard the best player on the other team. It is very unlikely that you will see MKG getting heavy minutes with the bench unit, unless you have a situation where someone like Lebron/Durant/Melo etc.. is playing with their bench unit.

Perhaps the compromise is more Marvin at SF in the 2nd unit.

Or [GASP] the 10-man rotation with PJ.

:clap: you got it
the Nic/Lin/Lamb/Marvin/Frank lineup probably was the best lineup the hornet had before Nic's injury
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#283 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:46 am

TinmanZBoy wrote:
bws94 wrote:
Tracymcgoaty wrote:
i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.


Batum needs to leave the 2nd unit. A lot of people agree. It's throwing the guys off. Earlier he played some with them but now it's throwing guys off. MKG would be better and fits their style better. Marv is good too.


coach likes to have two playmakers on the court at the same time.... tbh, Nic/Lin/lamb/Frank/Marvin probably was the best lineup before Nic's injury... they just did not play well the last couple of games.... any lineup with Nic/lin should be good, they have so many variety of plays...
lamb and Frank needs to focus on defense more, not be too anxious on offense...



I'd like marv instead of Lin to be honest that would work way better. Batum played 43 minutes in a damn blowout. Cliff knows the chemistry of the second unit is non existent because there is no consistent bench unit. Lamb is off Kaminsky is off, Lin is off, Let them play together with Lin creating for others thats what he is good at. Let him be the leader of the unit. he is not the leader when batum is there.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#284 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:48 am

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
bws94 wrote:
Batum needs to leave the 2nd unit. A lot of people agree. It's throwing the guys off. Earlier he played some with them but now it's throwing guys off. MKG would be better and fits their style better. Marv is good too.


coach likes to have two playmakers on the court at the same time.... tbh, Nic/Lin/lamb/Frank/Marvin probably was the best lineup before Nic's injury... they just did not play well the last couple of games.... any lineup with Nic/lin should be good, they have so many variety of plays...
lamb and Frank needs to focus on defense more, not be too anxious on offense...



I'd like marv instead of batum to be honest that would work way better. Batum played 43 minutes in a damn blowout. Cliff knows the chemistry of the second unit is non existent because there is no consistent bench unit. Lamb is off Kaminsky is off, Lin is off, Let them play together with Lin creating for others thats what he is good at. Let him be the leader of the unit. he is not the leader when batum is there.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#285 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:51 am

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
Tracymcgoaty wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
coach likes to have two playmakers on the court at the same time.... tbh, Nic/Lin/lamb/Frank/Marvin probably was the best lineup before Nic's injury... they just did not play well the last couple of games.... any lineup with Nic/lin should be good, they have so many variety of plays...
lamb and Frank needs to focus on defense more, not be too anxious on offense...



I'd like marv instead of batum to be honest that would work way better. Batum played 43 minutes in a damn blowout. Cliff knows the chemistry of the second unit is non existent because there is no consistent bench unit. Lamb is off Kaminsky is off, Lin is off, Let them play together with Lin creating for others thats what he is good at. Let him be the leader of the unit. he is not the leader when batum is there. MKG/Lin/Marv/Lamb/Frank
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#286 » by bws94 » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:53 am

fats, the reason I'm calling for MKG on the 2nd unit is he pushes the pace. I hear your points of wasting him on the 2nd unit. I think Lin and him should play together. Look at what they did in the Cavs game. That potential shouldn't go to waste. Lin is the best transition facilitator on the team and too many times transition opportunities aren't exploited because the ball has to go to someone else to bring up when Lin is open, there is a guy or two in front on him, and an easy basket could come out of that.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#287 » by TinmanZBoy » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:56 am

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
bws94 wrote:
Batum needs to leave the 2nd unit. A lot of people agree. It's throwing the guys off. Earlier he played some with them but now it's throwing guys off. MKG would be better and fits their style better. Marv is good too.


coach likes to have two playmakers on the court at the same time.... tbh, Nic/Lin/lamb/Frank/Marvin probably was the best lineup before Nic's injury... they just did not play well the last couple of games.... any lineup with Nic/lin should be good, they have so many variety of plays...
lamb and Frank needs to focus on defense more, not be too anxious on offense...



I'd like marv instead of Lin to be honest that would work way better. Batum played 43 minutes in a damn blowout. Cliff knows the chemistry of the second unit is non existent because there is no consistent bench unit. Lamb is off Kaminsky is off, Lin is off, Let them play together with Lin creating for others thats what he is good at. Let him be the leader of the unit. he is not the leader when batum is there.


I see what you mean... I would not play Nic 43 minutes either, i would let Lin stay and put Kemba back for the last 7 minutes if I were coach clifford.....that'w what I said coach was a little panicked...
however, Nic in the second unit is not wrong, it only makes the second unit better....when Nic and Lin share the court, no matter who the other threes are, I expect good results... they just did not play well the last couple of games
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#288 » by kinein » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:58 am

bws94 wrote:fats, the reason I'm calling for MKG on the 2nd unit is he pushes the pace. I hear your points of wasting him on the 2nd unit. I think Lin and him should play together. Look at what they did in the Cavs game. That potential shouldn't go to waste. Lin is the best transition facilitator on the team and too many times transition opportunities aren't exploited because the ball has to go to someone else to bring up when Lin is open, there is a guy or two in front on him, and an easy basket could come out of that.


he collapses defenses, makes it easy to create a shot for teammates. Whether they hit that shot is on them.

When they don't collapse on him, Lin needs to consistently make them pay by hitting the 3, or scoring inside, or nailing a jumper- just needs to play basketball ~ and have fun. He's picked it up recently and starting to hit his stride.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#289 » by fatlever » Tue Feb 9, 2016 5:58 am

bws94 wrote:fats, the reason I'm calling for MKG on the 2nd unit is he pushes the pace. I hear your points of wasting him on the 2nd unit. I think Lin and him should play together. Look at what they did in the Cavs game. That potential shouldn't go to waste. Lin is the best transition facilitator on the team and too many times transition opportunities aren't exploited because the ball has to go to someone else to bring up when Lin is open, there is a guy or two in front on him, and an easy basket could come out of that.


That's fine, stagger it so that Lin is getting some minutes with MKG and the starters in that case. Bring Kemba out earlier and then bring him back earlier so he gets a few minutes running the 2nd unit. I'd be fine with that move. I just know MKG from all these years and he will defend the Tony Snells of the world with the same intensity that he defends the all-stars. I'd just hate to see MKG pick up some cheap fouls that way.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#290 » by fatlever » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:01 am

The main problem with the bench tonight, though, wasn't that Lin didnt get enough chances to be the main guy, it was that Lin missed several wide open shots, and so did Frank. That unit was getting a lot of really good looks, they just werent making them. I think this is a completely different discussion of Lin its 2 more of those wide open jumpers and Frank hits one and Lamb hits one etc...
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#291 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:01 am

fatlever wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.


I think Lin has been good this season so far he has been playedin ways he is not used to and done it well. But Lin has said himself he wants to start Fats, hey for all i know he might have given up that hope and just be content on being a benchplayer providing a spark now and then. at least let him Run the second unit. Again i dont even want Lin to run a MDA offense, i'd like to think Lin can do something else other than that to run a unit.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#292 » by TinmanZBoy » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:01 am

fatlever wrote:Y

Or [GASP] the 10-man rotation with PJ.


absolutely no PJ.. one lamb has given me enough headache lately...lol... PJ and lamb together is disaster..
I'd rather give B roberts some minutes, he knows how to play, solid on defense...
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#293 » by bws94 » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:03 am

fatlever wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.


That's how I see it too and I get a lot of flack on Lin boards when I try to express the trends in the NBA and how Lin really fits in. What happened in MDA's offense with Lin running it was great then and for a limited time, but now, Lin is part of a more evolved system where multiple facilitators and motions will get things going. Lin is great at cutting and finishing now. We didn't see it much lately, but he can do that a lot once he gets his groove back.

There are fans that follow Lin that just need him back in that MDA style and with MDA to get the numbers he used to get. But I'm of the school of thought that is just limiting him and he's better off with lower stats, but a more complete player in these more evolved offensive systems. Lin's a team player anyway and doesn't seem to play to stat-pad much. Lin can still get good assists and point totals on some nights when he's on and I think Lin's touches should go up when on with Batum and Kemba. Sometimes I wonder if all 3 can have strong games together anymore.

Also noticed in tonight's game the ball going to the weak side more. That's good to see.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#294 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:08 am

bws94 wrote:
fatlever wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.


That's how I see it too and I get a lot of flack on Lin boards when I try to express the trends in the NBA and how Lin really fits in. What happened in MDA's offense with Lin running it was great then and for a limited time, but now, Lin is part of a more evolved system where multiple facilitators and motions will get things going. Lin is great at cutting and finishing now. We didn't see it much lately, but he can do that a lot once he gets his groove back.

There are fans that follow Lin that just need him back in that MDA style and with MDA to get the numbers he used to get. But I'm of the school of thought that is just limiting him and he's better off with lower stats, but a more complete player in these more evolved offensive systems. Lin's a team player anyway and doesn't seem to play to stat-pad much. Lin can still get good assists and point totals on some nights when he's on and I think Lin's touches should go up when on with Batum and Kemba. Sometimes I wonder if all 3 can have strong games together anymore.

Also noticed in tonight's game the ball going to the weak side more. That's good to see.


i dont understand that. Lin is more versatile now Why should he revert back to a system like that to be a one trick pony. Lins game has progressed great, and he has learned a lot at Charlotte with Silas. he has become more versatile as a player and it's a joy to watch.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#295 » by TinmanZBoy » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:14 am

fatlever wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.


i think overall clifford's offense system is good, the direction is right... however, for any system, you either find players perfect for your system or you tweak your system a little bit to fit the talents you have in your team...
Clifford's system is ideal for Nic and Al, particularly Nic who also can operate high PnR... However, for Kemba and Lin, I think Clifford could tweak his offense a little bit, run a little simple 1/5 1/4 PnR, clear more space for them..
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#296 » by TTNN » Tue Feb 9, 2016 6:56 am

bws94 wrote:
That's how I see it too and I get a lot of flack on Lin boards when I try to express the trends in the NBA and how Lin really fits in. What happened in MDA's offense with Lin running it was great then and for a limited time, but now, Lin is part of a more evolved system where multiple facilitators and motions will get things going. Lin is great at cutting and finishing now. We didn't see it much lately, but he can do that a lot once he gets his groove back.

There are fans that follow Lin that just need him back in that MDA style and with MDA to get the numbers he used to get. But I'm of the school of thought that is just limiting him and he's better off with lower stats, but a more complete player in these more evolved offensive systems. Lin's a team player anyway and doesn't seem to play to stat-pad much. Lin can still get good assists and point totals on some nights when he's on and I think Lin's touches should go up when on with Batum and Kemba. Sometimes I wonder if all 3 can have strong games together anymore.

Also noticed in tonight's game the ball going to the weak side more. That's good to see.


I hope you stop complaining about Lin fans from other boards here, you don't need to trying to paint other Lin fans as crazy fans to show how even headed you are.

Your post show it enough, and I think your discussion goes very well by itself, without you trying to call out other Lin fans.

Much appreciated if you could stop doing that. Thanks.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#297 » by bws94 » Tue Feb 9, 2016 7:03 am

Lin's postgame has him saying he has to bring more energy to the 2nd unit and he's played terrible the last 3 games. He said he's the leader and controller of the 2nd unit and if he brings more energy, guaranteed the 2nd unit will play better.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#298 » by TinmanZBoy » Tue Feb 9, 2016 7:06 am

bws94 wrote:Lin's postgame has him saying he has to bring more energy to the 2nd unit and he's played terrible the last 3 games. He said he's the leader and controller of the 2nd unit and if he brings more energy, guaranteed the 2nd unit will play better.

leadership :rock:
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#299 » by TTNN » Tue Feb 9, 2016 7:52 am

fatlever wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team


Exactly. The days of the MDA type offense of having your PG dominate the ball and run countless p/r is over. Offenses and defenses have evolved. Teams now have 2-3 guys on the floor at all times who can run p/r. Teams are using a lot more ball movement to move defenses. The Thibs style defenses made it too easy to stuck one-dimensional offenses such as what MDA was running back them.

Those if you wishing to see Lin as a starting PG, dominating the ball, with a big rim running center setting screens and three spot up shooters camped in the corners are going to be very disappointed.

This season is great for the evolution of Lin and his career. He is showing GMs around the league that he can have value as a defender and as a combo guard/shooting guard and secondary ball handler. Its a shame that some of his fans refuse to embrace this change.


I'm not sure MDA system and Clifford's system who's more old school, or who's more evolved though.

I do feel Clifford's offense is less modern style , like he don't use corner 3 much, the spacing is not as good though. When you park two shooters as the corner, that's when you stretch the defense the most. Hornets rank the first in taking above the break 3s, but rank bottom 5 in taking right corner 3 and bottom 8 in taking left corner 3s. So this team just don't take much corner 3s.

Also, this team initiate offense from the side, sometimes they will have both ball handler on the strong side and initiate P&R from Elbow, that way you have only one way to pass the ball, and the ball handler were very easy to get trapped to the side line. Remember our first two game against Hawks, how many TOs we had in that game. Also sometimes they end up have only ball movement in the strong side, and harder to swing the ball to the weak side, since, you will need to pass over the defenders, (which is harder for Kemba) and across the court, (which could be dangerous sometimes.)

A lot of teams run high P&R, (exactly the Linsanity style) where PG started at the top of the key, with two shooters at the two corners, the court is wide open, and once the PG go pass the screen, he is running downhill, and could pass to both side of the court, no elbow defender could cheat to sack in, otherwise it will be a wide open corner 3. Remember we were killed by GSW with that 1-5 P&R, and we could not stop Priston's Reggie Jackson.

But we don't run that high P$R ourselves. Well, given we don't have a good P&R big, that's understandable.

Also, this team don't run, they walk the ball up, no fast break, no transition. I see MKG is doing that, that's perfect, and I could totally see Lin pass half court to fast running MKG there, or Lin push the ball and pass to the side to MKG with an easy layup just like in that Cavs game.

However, just because some Lin fans ask for those plays, does not means they only want Lin to shine, a lot more is because they think that could help the team to win more.

It is okay Clifford's system don't play that way, but you guys must be kidding saying that Clifford's system do not have a PG dominant the ball. Hornets as a team average 19.7 min time of possession, Kemba average 7.9 min/game. You can't be more PG dominant than that. Kemba ranked #2 in the league of average time of possession per game.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#300 » by TTNN » Tue Feb 9, 2016 8:01 am

Oh, I should add that I agree with Fatlever that this season is great with Lin, for him to play well in a system different from MDA, and also different from Rockets Morey ball. I actually see a lot similar plays like what he used to played in Lakers, he definitely improved to play in a smaller space, and he secure the ball way better in smaller space now than he was a year ago. added mid range game, plus his defense definitely improve a lot.

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